Author Topic: See if I understand Layouts?? (Read 4144 times)

pin-chaser · « **on:** February 03, 2006, 12:20:52 AM »

In general,
1. The Pin to PAP (personal Access Point) distance in the primary influence of reaction. The closer the pin to the PAP the earlier and stronger the reaction will be by increasing the distance between the flair rings.
2. The MB (Mass Bias) to PAP distance is the secondary influance of reaction. The closer the MB to the PAP the stonger the reaction will be by increasing the distance between the flair rings much like the Pin to PAP.
3. Weight holes have a much smaller influence in reaction by creating more or less stability in the roll.
4. Static weights have virtually no significance to reaction.

Now, if this is true, then a 3 3/8 (Pin to Pap) X 3 3/8 (MB to PAP) produces the maximum, earliest and strongest reaction that ball can have. I believe this is called a stacked leverage???

If this is correct I will post some additional questions.
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shelley · « **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2006, 08:26:57 AM »

I don't think it's quite true regarding 3 3/8" MB-to-PAP ("positive axis", not "personal access"; most of us would like to think our personal access points are more than 5"). With the MB in what most of us would consider the strong position, you're looking at a MB-to-PAP of about 4 1/2" or more.

The strongest reaction (really the most dramatic) is 3 3/8 pin-to-PAP with 3 3/8" CG-to-PAP on a symmetric ball. Asymmetric, the MB to the right of the thumb is usually considered the strongest, but the MB distance is 4 1/2" or more.

Weight holes are tuning mechanisms, I'd say comparable in capability and influence to MB location.

Static weights are a thing of the past, in physics if not rules.

SH

pin-chaser · « **Reply #2 on:** February 03, 2006, 08:34:25 AM »

So if I wanted a 4 x 5 layout it would be measured from 4" from Pin to PAP and 5" from CG to PAP (And NOT 5" from MB to PAP)?
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EboHammer4ever · « **Reply #3 on:** February 03, 2006, 08:40:12 AM »

If that layout (5 x 4) is on a symetrical core ball. On Asymetric balls with MB markings, you want to use the MB as the second measurement and use the CG marking to give you an idea if you need a weighthole to be legal. Mass Bias balls are sometimes a little tricky to layout depending hole the Pin, CG, and MB points line up on the ball. Me personally, I like to drill MB balls where all 3 line up fairly well then you can place the pin and MB where you want to and have a fairly good idea how much weight you might have to take out.

Good luck

pin-chaser · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2006, 08:49:21 AM »

Ok.. this is geetting confusing... in a 4 x 5 layout the first number refers to PAP to CG? and the second number refers to PAP to PIN?
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tekneek · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2006, 09:12:46 AM »

4 x 5 layout symetrical

pin to pap is the first number. = 4

cg to pap is the second number = 5

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Steve
Stars N Strikes Pro Shop
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Greg T · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2006, 09:33:57 AM »

Use tyhe degree system. It's much quicker and a whole lot easier to understand. Read this over and you'll understand perfectly.
http://www.rollrite.co.uk/secrets.php
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Manfred von Richthoffen for moderator!!!

aabraham1209 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2006, 08:27:37 PM »

So 75 degrees is stacked leverage is that right?

bstone · « **Reply #8 on:** February 06, 2006, 10:18:35 PM »

the closer to the pap the mb is the less the mb will affect the ball because the imbalance the mb creates when rolling would end up basically freewheeling on the axis point. the farther away the more effect but not necessarily more flare.

bstone
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charlest · « **Reply #9 on:** February 07, 2006, 06:43:58 AM »

quote:
So 75 degrees is stacked leverage is that right?

No, 75 degrees with the pin at leverage = what people used to call stacked leverage. However, when the pin and CG are visually stacked (that is, pin on top of the CG, when looking at the grip), that is NOT always a 75 degree leverage drilling for everyone, BECAUSE everyone's PAP measurements are different.
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"...for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise...."
J. R. R. Tolkien

Djarum · « **Reply #10 on:** February 07, 2006, 07:04:29 AM »

I would agree to this. By all considerations, my ball is stacked, but the pin is 3 and 3/4 from my pap, not 3 and 3/8

Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.

charlest · « **Reply #11 on:** February 07, 2006, 07:14:28 AM »

AFAIK (As far as I know):

quote:
In general,
1. The Pin to PAP (personal Access Point) distance in the primary influence of reaction. The closer the pin to the PAP the earlier and stronger the reaction will be by increasing the distance between the flair rings.

PAP = Positive Axis Point.
flair is not the same, although some bowlers do have a lot of flair

. This one is flare. As in "a ball flares",or "flare rings".

That is true for symmetric cored balls. It is not true for many balls with a significant mass bias. Many of these balls have different rules. (See MoRich and Track websites.)

Most asymmetric balls have a mass bias. Ball with a Mass Bias differential equal to or greater than .008 are considered to have a significant mass bias. A ball does NOT have to be asymmetric to have a mass bias; Ebonite's The One has a symmetric core with a significant mass bias because the pieces of the core have different densities resulting in the weight being offset. (On the planet earth, for the most part, weight = mass. On different planetary bodies where gravity is different than earth's, weight and mass will be different, at least according to the high school physics I recall.

)

quote:

2. The MB (Mass Bias) to PAP distance is the secondary influence of reaction. The closer the MB to the PAP the stonger the reaction will be by increasing the distance between the flair rings much like the Pin to PAP.

Yes, mass bias is secondary to pin positioning, in ball reaction influence.
Usually. It depends on the strength of the mass bias. The greater the mass bias differential, the greater the effect. Moving the MB towards the VAL makes the ball try to get into a roll earlier and earlier. I wouldn't necessarily term the reaction, stronger; I'd say, earlier. As the MB is moved from 6 1/2" away from the PAP closer to the VAL to beyond the VAL, the reaction shape goes from arc to sharp break to hook and set to early roll to earliest roll. This does not mean the ball will be usable on heavy oil; the change is solely with respect to the same ball with different MB positions.

quote:

3. Weight holes have a much smaller influence in reaction by creating more or less stability in the roll.

Weight holes generally affect the flare by adjusting the shape of the core, depending on the exact size, location and depth. This affects polished balls slightly differently than duller (earlier rolling) balls. It depends on where most of the ball's reaction is.

quote:

4. Static weights have virtually no significance to reaction.

Most people agree to this. How much they agree depends on people's feelings, preconcpetions, conceptions, prejudices, education and time of the day. Some think the degree is the same as it was in 1980; some believe it is less than that. This is a very touchy subject.

quote:

Now, if this is true, then a 3 3/8 (Pin to Pap) X 3 3/8 (MB to PAP) produces the maximum, earliest and strongest reaction that ball can have. I believe this is called a stacked leverage???

"Stacked Leverage" is a "look", an appearance in many drawings that help describe this drilling. It is based on a generic, roughly 5 1/2" over x 3/4" up PAP. Since everybody's PAP is different, with some being HUGELY different, using the term, "stacked leverage" has done more harm than good BECAUSE 99.99% see the picture and tell their driller to put their pin and CG in the same relationship to their thumb and finger holes, AS THEY SEE IN THE PICTURE, IGNORING COMPLETELY THE PAP. Their PAP winds up being anywhere from 6" over and 1" down to 3" over and 2" up. TheN, with a "STacked Leverage" drilling, only God knows what kind of reaction they will get.

Yes, a 3 3/8" pin positIon with a 75 degree drilling (using MB OR cg, AS APPROPRIATE) will get the strongest reaction a ball is capable of. It is not the earliest. It is the strongest or maximum overall. It is not the longest; it is not the earliest.

Side Note: For balls with significant mass bias, another important factor, often ignored in symmetric drillings, is the height of the pin above the midline. Pins below the level of the bridge cause ball reactions that are earlier and smoother; pins above the level of the bridge cause morelength and snappier reactions.

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"...for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise...."
J. R. R. Tolkien

charlest · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2006, 06:57:28 AM »

quote:
Darn Charlest, read your post 3 times and can't find anything I can bash. Good post, except most of your average "league bowlers" wouldn't understand a word of your post.

Thank you, sir.
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"...for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise...."
J. R. R. Tolkien

Author Topic: See if I understand Layouts?? (Read 4144 times)

pin-chaser

See if I understand Layouts??

shelley

Re: See if I understand Layouts??

pin-chaser

Re: See if I understand Layouts??

EboHammer4ever

Re: See if I understand Layouts??

pin-chaser

Re: See if I understand Layouts??

tekneek

Re: See if I understand Layouts??

Greg T

Re: See if I understand Layouts??

aabraham1209

Re: See if I understand Layouts??

bstone

Re: See if I understand Layouts??

charlest

Re: See if I understand Layouts??

Djarum

Re: See if I understand Layouts??

charlest

Re: See if I understand Layouts??

charlest

Re: See if I understand Layouts??