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Author Topic: +/- side weight  (Read 7955 times)

channel surfer

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+/- side weight
« on: February 10, 2004, 11:03:19 PM »
I just got to thinking. They say that positive side weight will make more length and a more aggressive backend, and that negative would hook sooner, with a weaker backend.

How can that be? By creating positive sideweight, your shifting weight towards your axis(which creates a earlier roll). So can someone please explain this. I just started thinking about it, and its mind boggling.
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omegabowler

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2004, 02:12:38 PM »
your PAP faces you going down the lane. that is the important thing.

that wt is rotating around an axis that is greater than 0( tilt) the dynamics make the wt want to reach Zero. so the ball skids further then Tuns over into a roll into  the pins.

neg wt will be below 0. so it is initial pulling the ball forcing roll. then as the balls rotation will try and bring it up but will do smoothly and late.

that is why a 105 deg layout with the CG is a good control layout that gets down lane and does not react so violent to the dry.
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channel surfer

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2004, 02:27:27 PM »
quote:
your PAP faces you going down the lane. that is the important thing.


No, if your axis rotation is 90º, it will be facing you. I'm around 45º, so its not really pointing at me.
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omegabowler

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2004, 02:58:13 PM »
if an axis bisects a plane then 1 half the ball if facing one direction( towards bowler or the pocket as it were) and  the other half faces away from bowler( towards the corner pin)

that is for 0 thru 90 deg. that did not mean only visually but spatially  as the ball travels down lane.
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omegabowler

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2004, 04:42:24 PM »
hey Brian, maybe I confused myself or was unclear. the neg weight would mean more if the cg is on the neg side of the ball vs just drilling out wt.

My thinking is a neg cg placement means the core is in a different position and on the Neg. side of the ball.

at least the result I see on the lane with reactive equipment drilled with CG on the neg are very stable early midlane reads with a continuos path through the pin deck instead of snap off the dry.
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Rockbowler

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2004, 05:15:20 PM »
I agree that with a ball with a mass bias the CG means nothing. But from experience, two balls without MB have sharper breakpoints if the CG is kicked out. I have read your posts with T-GOD and it seemed that you two are very knowledgeable on the subject. Please elaborate. Thanks!

T-GOD

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2004, 04:33:15 PM »
CS,  
quote:
They say that positive side weight will make more length and a more aggressive backend, and that negative would hook sooner, with a weaker backend.


quote:
How can that be? By creating positive sideweight, your shifting weight towards your axis(which creates a earlier roll). So can someone please explain this. I just started thinking about it, and its mind boggling.
It's mind boggling because what you've been taught (shifting weight towards your axis creates a earlier roll) is WRONG..!!

That's why Brian says...
quote:
don't confuse yourself with static weights.(side...)
He's confused, because he doesn't know how they work or what they do..!!

You know that pos. side weight makes the ball go longer and/or has more backend. This has been know for years. this was true in the 3-piece pancake core days, as well as today. The LAWS DON'T CHANGE. They might not mean as much today, but, THE RULES STILL APPLY..!!

You also know that having positive side weight means that the weight is closer to your PAP. I've explained how you might think that axis weight/weight closer to your PAP rolls earlier in another thread. But, I'll post it here for you to read also...

Most of the time, we're bowling on a wall, with carrydown. A wall means a wall of dry boards to the right. So, what happens is the ball will go somewhat long, when it hits the dry, then it hooks hard.

The dry outside is so short, all the way to the foul line, that all you see is the ball hooking. That's why you think a pin axis hooks early, but in reality, the whole lane is hooking early.

When the oil carries down, because pin axis goes long and/or more positive side weight goes longer, it never hooks. This is why you don't see the reaction on the backend with a pin axis drilling.

Now, if you had a blended lane condition, that was fairly dry, you will see that the pin axis drilling goes longer, and, also hooks harder/more on the backend.

If you were using a leverage weight drilling on this condition, you will notice that it hooks earlier, and it will roll out. The pin axis drilling, along with the ending CG on the axis (more positive side along with very little top) will allow you to swing the ball wider, covering more boards, and never rolling out.

Like I said, the reason you don't see pin axis drillings hook on the backend, is because the oil is too long and/or too much carrydown, so the ball goes too long before it hooks.

C-Surfer, hopefully this helps. =:^D

channel surfer

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2004, 07:49:16 PM »
Thank You Brain for clearing this up.
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T-GOD

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2004, 09:52:44 PM »
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know that pos. side weight makes the ball go longer and/or has more backend. This has been know for years. this was true in the 3-piece pancake core days, as well as today. The LAWS DON'T CHANGE. They might not mean as much today, but, THE RULES STILL APPLY..!!
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I agree with that.
OK great. Now, what does positive side weight mean..? It means that the ending CG (weight) is on the positive side of the ball. That means the WEIGHT IS CLOSER TO YOUR PAP..!!

As I've been saying all along, weight closer to your PAP MAKES THE BALL GO LONGER..!!  

Weight farther from your PAP, is closer to your track and makes the ball roll earllier..!!

When you have zero side weight and only top weight, the weight/ending CG is in your palm, which is closer to your track. A ball with zero side wieght hooks earlier, and rolls smoother/hooks less at the end, than a ball with 3/4 oz. side weight.

Now if you agreed with my above statement, up there in quotes, which you said you did, then you have to agree with the rest of my statements in this post.

You better think hard about what you've said, and figure everything I've stated out, because I don't want you agreeing with everything I say, without you really believing it's true..!!

Remember, this has nothing to do with core position, because that will be a constant. Everything I've stated about weights is in addition to whatever core position you choose. =:^D

Edited on 2/12/2004 10:57 PM

channel surfer

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2004, 05:49:05 AM »
Well, I have balls with pin closer to my pap that hook earlier, then the balls with pin closer to track. Now, this is the same lane condition. The only ball i have that has + side weight is my WOW, now, and it has medium length. The ball is drilled Stacked. Pin 3 3/8" from pap.

If we had a ball where CG was on the Pin, and drilled it axis, then yes, it will not hook that early nor will it flare much because the core is in a stable position. Now move the pin half way between your pap and track, you have maximum flare, and mid lane hook, with a angular backend.(at least with my experiments with my equipment.)
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proform

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2004, 07:55:15 AM »
Brian and Chanel Surfer,
Don't waiste your time with T-GOD all you are doing is helping him spew nonsense.


Rod Piasecki
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T-GOD

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2004, 11:47:37 AM »
Proform, you look pretty, but technically you have no knowledge. I'm sorry you don't have any experience with physics or core shapes, because if you did, you'd understand what I'm saying.

The problem is that you don't see everything that's happening. So, what you see in the beginning, is not what's really happening in the end.

When you put the core/weight closer to your track, as the ball rolls down the lane, the core falls. In reality, the core/weight falls to the side of the ball/CLOSER TO YOUR PAP. One side of the ball is heavier now which is why it hooks harder at the end.

In the beginning of the lane, the weight/core is rolling end over end, both sides are somewhat equal in weight, which is why it doesn't hook early, but it is rolling early.

So, now you have a ball that doesn't hook early, but rolls early and as the ball goes down the lane, the core falls. So, now the ball hooks later. But, it's becasue the imbalance in the core, where it's fallen to the side of the ball, CLOSER TO THE PAP.

When you place the core closer to your track, it'll fall to the side as it goes down the lane, so in reality, the weight is no longer closer to your track..!!

So you see, not all things are what they seem to be..!! =:^D

proform

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2004, 12:28:26 PM »
T-GOD
still waiting for that answer?
this post here is not what we have bben debating.
i may have been wrong earlier you have designed bowling balls the JEKYL & HYDE!
you keep spewing vomit fromm one idea to another with no focus on what we have debated. the debate was never about + or - side weight but pin placement.
placing the pin on pap is not extreme side weight which is how you keep trying to prove it as in one sentance and then pull out something at the other extreme that has nothing to do with the debate.
you are a lost cause
i have not at any time given an opinion in this particular post only stated that the other two were waisting their time debating you.
jekyl no hyde no jekyl no hyde no hickle
Rod Piasecki
Lord Field Staff
http://www.lordfield.com/

proform

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2004, 12:31:09 PM »
also still in the original posting/debate i posted my credentials and see that you haven't responded in that post yet challenge my knowledge here where i hadn't debated.
Rod Piasecki
Lord Field Staff
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T-GOD

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Re: +/- side weight
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2004, 12:48:39 PM »
What will posting my credentials do for you..? Will that change what I say, no. Will it make my statements correct to you now..? It shouldn't. So what good are they to you..?

If I said I was the head ball designer for Brunswick, would you now believe what I'm saying..? What difference does it make what my credentials are..? If I'm important/famous, does that mean you'll believe me more..? =:^D