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Author Topic: smoothest layout?  (Read 25037 times)

J_w73

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smoothest layout?
« on: January 13, 2015, 01:43:34 AM »
I have used a pin at center grip to create a smooth layout with some success.  This puts the pin 5 inches from my PAP.  This works best with short pins to where a weight hole isn't needed as a weight hole usually increases the flare and asymmetry and causes more movement.

Does anyone have any feedback on how a 1 3/4 pin to pap would differ in reaction?  I know it would put the core in a low rg orientation.  It should also have similar flare to the 5" pin to pap. Is there an issue with the pin possibly locking onto the PAP?

What layout do you use when you want to smooth out the reaction and take as much flip out of the ball as possible?
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J_w73

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2015, 04:33:48 PM »
Quote from: JustRico on January 13, 2015, 03:50:00 PM
Surface is the largest effecter of ball reaction....you can smooth reaction by lowering surface
Secondly if bowling ball does not slow properly, the core/layout will not effect the desired reaction properly

One issue I see with layouts is they are not adjusted correctly using a weight hole-take a 1.5-2.5" pin to pap layout...more times than not a weight hole is not facilitated thus the flares stay tight creating a quicker response

Doesn't the shorter pin to pap, putting the core in a lower RG state, (sorry, not sure if that is the right way to say it) negate some of the quick response to friction?  Or at least create less response than say a 5.25 pin to pap vs a 1.5 pin to pap? Wouldn't each have similar flare?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 04:43:37 PM by J_w73 »
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JustRico

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2015, 04:44:51 PM »
It does but it goes back to how the ball is allowed to transition...if the cover is smooth to create length and you use a layout away from leverage, the flare is diminished accordingly...a 2" pin theoretically creates a similar amount of flare as a pin at 4.75" only effected by core location high RG (track) vs low RG (pap)...so if no weight hole is added, say a 2" pin to pap vs a 2" pin to pap with a 2" weight hole, the amt of flare effects the transition...one doesn't see the window the other does
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J_w73

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2015, 05:07:45 PM »
Quote from: JustRico on January 13, 2015, 04:21:48 PM
Thank you Cheech I meant to post that earlier...great point

So on a symmetrical ball with a pin at center grip , 5 inches from the PAP, with no weight hole, should have the same flare as a ball with the pin 5 inches from the PAP and 2.5 inches above the fingers, with the thumbhole 6 3/4 from the pin?  If it matters, use my stats in my signature.  Would these two balls have the same reaction?
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JustRico

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2015, 05:30:08 PM »
First of all one of the things we found (Bill Wasserberger and I) while at Brunswick was that for the majority of cases, the pin in the palm left a majority of the core intact after drilling allowing a bulk of the dynamics and adding a weight hole 6.75" from the pin increased the overall dynamics plus asymmetry...so for the mass majority of cases, pin in the palm has minimal effect on the core...so a 5" pin to pap in the palm with create more flare potential than a 5" pin above...does that make sense?
Now in the majority of cases for the average bowler, bowling on typical conditions with built in friction how much difference will be noticeable? In my opinion, minimal...maybe 1/16"+ or - in flare...
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J_w73

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2015, 05:52:25 PM »
Quote from: JustRico on January 13, 2015, 05:30:08 PM
First of all one of the things we found (Bill Wasserberger and I) while at Brunswick was that for the majority of cases, the pin in the palm left a majority of the core intact after drilling allowing a bulk of the dynamics and adding a weight hole 6.75" from the pin increased the overall dynamics plus asymmetry...so for the mass majority of cases, pin in the palm has minimal effect on the core...so a 5" pin to pap in the palm with create more flare potential than a 5" pin above...does that make sense?
Now in the majority of cases for the average bowler, bowling on typical conditions with built in friction how much difference will be noticeable? In my opinion, minimal...maybe 1/16"+ or - in flare...

I'm talking about pin in palm without the weight hole. (provided you have a short enough pin, low enough top weight to be legal)  I wasn't necessarily talking about the RICO layout in this post.
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JustRico

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2015, 05:54:26 PM »
Pin in the palm no matter length of pin still remains the same to my comment...read what I said abt drilling around the core and how much honest difference there is in the big scheme of things...
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J_w73

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2015, 06:05:13 PM »
Quote from: JustRico on January 13, 2015, 05:54:26 PM
Pin in the palm no matter length of pin still remains the same to my comment...read what I said abt drilling around the core and how much honest difference there is in the big scheme of things...

I was referring to your comment "so for the mass majority of cases, pin in the palm has minimal effect on the core...so a 5" pin to pap in the palm with create more flare potential than a 5" pin above...does that make sense? "

This is even referring to a ball without the weight hole 6.75 from the pin?
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JustRico

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2015, 06:09:57 PM »
Yes that is correct...
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JustRico

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2015, 06:13:12 PM »
"Now in the majority of cases for the average bowler, bowling on typical conditions with built in friction how much difference will be noticeable? In my opinion, minimal...maybe 1/16"+ or - in flare..."
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J_w73

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2015, 06:17:26 PM »
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JustRico

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2015, 06:20:20 PM »
Keep in mind, to a greater extent, this is semantics...when dealing with the variables how much pin/core in regards to drilled placement effect reaction?
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J_w73

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2015, 06:26:48 PM »
Quote from: JustRico on January 13, 2015, 06:09:57 PM
Yes that is correct...

Trying to get my head around this. Even if minimal, why would the pin in palm (no weight hole) create more flare potential than the pin above the fingers?   And regardless of flare potential, are you also saying the reaction and ball shape would be the same?
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tdub36tjt

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2015, 06:40:55 PM »
Not trying to start anything Rico just want your opinion. But what do you think of the powerhouse blueprint track flare study? They seemed to show higher pins having more flare vs lower pins so just curious if u felt the study was flawed?
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JustRico

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2015, 06:51:22 PM »
I don't know anything abt the blueprint program but I know it's only EBI products...

I like science but in the bigger schemes of reaction and semantics...we make too much out of too little....if you use blueprint and the ball doesn't react as the computer says it will, what does the pro shop operator do? They adjust either the surface first or look at flare...or they should at least...
There is no fail safe system - none and when I do layout suggestions I know what a 5" pin to pap creates and if it's not perfect, I adjust the surface then look at the flare to adjust that but if the surface isn't matching up or allowing the ball to slow down properly, all the rest don't matter
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tdub36tjt

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Re: smoothest layout?
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2015, 07:01:29 PM »
Quote from: JustRico on January 13, 2015, 06:51:22 PM
I don't know anything abt the blueprint program but I know it's only EBI products...

I like science but in the bigger schemes of reaction and semantics...we make too much out of too little....if you use blueprint and the ball doesn't react as the computer says it will, what does the pro shop operator do? They adjust either the surface first or look at flare...or they should at least...
There is no fail safe system - none and when I do layout suggestions I know what a 5" pin to pap creates and if it's not perfect, I adjust the surface then look at the flare to adjust that but if the surface isn't matching up or allowing the ball to slow down properly, all the rest don't matter

I agree with what you're saying whole heartedly. I feel the science side gives a driller a better understanding of how to help add the flare needed and gives the opportunity to "get it perfect" if there are ball reaction issues. But i completely agree that getting the surface correct is most important.
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