Ive used a lot of big VAL angle layouts for spinners because I like most of them to square up to the line. With those numbers its going to be long and really forward so IMO no need to start you in deeper unless there's a lack of volume. Short drill angle, bigger VAL angle and a good flaring pin to PAP like 4".

Ive used a lot of big VAL angle layouts for spinners because I like most of them to square up to the line. With those numbers its going to be long and really forward so IMO no need to start you in deeper unless there's a lack of volume. Short drill angle, bigger VAL angle and a good flaring pin to PAP like 4".

What if that Axis Rotation number was cut in half. How would that alter your suggestion?

Think I am going to try this layout on the Creed I picked up just for kicks (yellow pin, blue cg, and black is MB).  Almost a full roller layout lol.  Have a feeling track won't thump finger holes but might find myself having to play more to the left than I normally do with more standard layouts.  My track is a more to the bottom left of the ball than dotted line in diagram.  (Stole layout from BTM article about layout for very low track bowlers).

So I finally got to throw the Creed today with the layout posted above and it did not do what I expected.  I was bowling in the heavier oil house OOB so I want to throw on a more normal volume house shot before being sure but basically the ball went nearly as straight as my spare ball.  Sure didn't hit like it though as that layout definitely gets the ball into a forward roll early.  No weird splits so don't think it was burning up just didn't seem to have much of a hook phase, not that I normally do much anyway but usually get a little bit of a pop on the backend.  Need to look at track later but don't think was tracking over thumb hole.  Supposedly the Creed can handle some oil but maybe if go back to that house will bring a lot more surface next time.  Didn't throw particularly well also so want to see with less user error.  Ball has a nice hit though.

(edit:  yep back of my mind knew heard of this layout somewhere else besides full rollers.  Very close to Boomer layout which does just what I describe above.  Meant for people with a lot higher rev rate than me to control the back end.  Oh well may eventually plug and redrill or may keep as with this ball's core being so bottom heavy might grow on me as my go to down and in ball)

Just putting the pin "under the thumb" only inverts the bowtie and causes the ball to flatten out downlane. Mainly because of these two factors:

1) Distance of the pin to your N.A.P.
- Yes... the negative axis point. If you have a very low track, that pin is probably 7-8" from your NAP being right under the thumb. It's going to lower the flare and overall hook a lot.

2) The pin being that much below the center of grip
- This will pull your bowtie down near the thumb and greatly decrease the entry angle as the ball will break tilt the earliest and roll the most forward as it exits the pattern

That layout posted will work best with a higher track, high rev player as long as the pin is 5-5 1/2" from the Negative Axis Point. If you're hellbent on trying the layout, I would plug it and move the grip so that the pin is closer to 7-8 o'clock or wherever the layout falls in order for the pin to be 3 1/2" below the centerline and 5" from your negative axis point.

Try that and the ball will roll much better, I promise.

One of my favorite balls of all time, the xfactor rolled amazing with that layout.

My wife has 22* of tilt, 60-65* axis rotation, slightly speed dominant.  Generally, we do something like 40x5x30 for pure hook.  60x4.75x35 for house shots.....

Yep longer pin 2 pap way to go.  Been using 20x4.75x30 for big hook myself.  Also as a boot note went with the following layout on the Creed instead and like it a lot more.  I generally need more back end not less and layout above is the way to kill back end reaction.