Author Topic: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout (Read 8776 times)

pjr300 · « **on:** August 31, 2004, 12:53:55 PM »

A drilling question: I've tried a few balls with a layout of pin near the bridge (above or below) with CG in the palm. Unfortunately, I haven't had much success with them. The ball just rolls end over end with very little back end. Now granted, this isn't an exhaustive test, but not anything promising.

I don't rip the cover like a lot of players do, so maybe that's why I don't get the big backend. Maybe I need to use this layout on a drier condition. Not sure... any ideas on why this layout, which seems to work for others, didn't do much for me?

P.S. Tried it on a Storm Hit and Track Threat.

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

pjr300 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 31, 2004, 11:13:51 PM »

I think my PAP is 4 1/2" x 1" ... any thoughts?

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #2 on:** August 31, 2004, 11:25:41 PM »

Do you know your axis tilt and rotation?
--------------------
STORMIN1

pjr300 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 31, 2004, 11:37:34 PM »

Rotation is 250. Tilt is 70% I believe.

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #4 on:** August 31, 2004, 11:51:59 PM »

quote:

Rotation is 250. Tilt is 70% I believe.

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

These numbers do not reflect axis tilt and axis rotation.

To find tilt you measure your track diameter and for every 1" less than 13.5" it is 6 2/3Â°.
Axis rotation can be found by putting a piece of tape or placing a mark with a grease pencil on your PAP and seeing where the mark is placed in the first few feet of the lane. If the tape or mark is in the correct position it will appear to stay stationary for the first few feet. Like the black spot in the video.

Here is a link to a video where the bowler has about 75Â° axis rotation (hand at about 3:30 at release)
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kennmelvin/VSoccer.Htm
--------------------
STORMIN1

Edited on 8/31/2004 11:57 PM

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #5 on:** September 01, 2004, 12:02:27 AM »

Your speed, revs, and PAP are about the same as mine and pin over and CG palm doesn't work very well for me either. For me it is because I generally have a high degree of axis rotation and that drilling keep axis rotation too long for me which causes the ball to never make a strong move.
Pin over and any where between the bridge line and over right hand edge of ring with the MB any where between Strong (midway between track & VAL) and VAL works best for me.

Generally speaking from what I have read is that people with lower degrees of axis rotation prefer the MB to be positioned further away from their VAL and vice versa.
MB closer to VAL will cause you to loose axis rotation sooner causing the ball to roll sooner, closer to track slower rotation loss and more length.
--------------------
STORMIN1

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #6 on:** September 01, 2004, 01:04:43 AM »

Right on!

I can make that pin position work or even farther from pap but not that cg position either. Maybe a little more revs but similar axis rotation.

I've even gone under middle finger and cg kicked out towards pap and had good results. That pin to pap is over 6 inches for me.

However when I go to the typically big hand drilling (bridge and grip center)5 1/2 x 5 1/2 for me it just goes too long and then doesn't really recover that strong. I have NO area. Miss wide stay wide, tug starts hooking right away and keeps going.

IT has for me and maybe you what would be called a wide dispersion pattern.

Reasons very well explained above. Stay away and let your big hands friends use.

All of a sudden lately I have been using a variation for length that I"m really intrigued with! Never worked in the heavily oiled midlane houses I bowled in before but is seeming to impress in head oil midlane oriented lanes where I need to move a little wider and get more attack angle but need length in the midlanes.

For me it is 5 1/4 X 4. Pin up almost 1 1/2 inches north of ring, slightly to side towards pap and cg kicked maybe 1/2 inch off stacked. With this drilling I can use more surface wide in the dryer boards and get less over under and still get length and attack angle or higher on head pin for carry in a house that hates light!

A variant to accomplish what you want!

REgards,

Luckylefty

pjr300 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 01, 2004, 11:01:07 AM »

Thanks guys. I'm glad to see that it's not just me that struggles with this layout. I thought it was just due to the high pin position, but a recent expirement with a Golden Nugget helped me realize that there's no reason to fear the high pin over bridge --- it's the combo with the CG in palm that creates the issue.

My equipment struggles on synthetic dry continues. My Friday league started last week, and I went 227 with my Inferno followed by a pair of turd games for maybe 570. After the first game the heads broke down and all I got was over/under from my other gear. Either the ball rolled out at the arrows, hooked early to brooklyn, or washed out. I was best off using the 2x5 Threat, as the GN hooked WAY too much, as did a label Triton Heat. As I suffered through this crap, we lost game 2 by a pin and totals by 8 while their cleanup bowler, who had 6 revs (yes, six) at about 14 mph up the middle shoots 680. Disgusting.

But, I digress. I have a Blazing Inferno (pin below ring CG out) on the way. Other possibitlites are a Slay/R (which I'd do pin above ring, CG out) a NeoTac Khemelian (same as Monster Frenzy) at label leverage, or a NIB Quantum Elite (which is basically an Inferno weightblock with N-Control pearl coverstock).

I hope to come up with a solution for this dump of a bowling alley. Fortunately I'm only 1/2 time there!

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

JohnP · « **Reply #8 on:** September 01, 2004, 12:11:25 PM »

pjr300 -- Consider the Visionary Slate Blue Gargoyle, a urethane ball with a dynamic core. When your resin and particle balls are breaking too early/much, this ball will maintain a smooth arc and still have good carry. I use one most of the time, sanded and polished to 2000 grit. -- JohnP

JohnP · « **Reply #9 on:** September 01, 2004, 10:46:26 PM »

BrianN -- If the ball that doesn't work for you doesn't already have a balance hole, consider trying one about 2" past the VAL. But first be sure your track won't hit it. -- JohnP

pjr300 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 27, 2004, 08:07:20 PM »

OK, my bad. I posted incorrect specs and never updated them. Here goes:

16 mph
260 rpm
PAP: 5 1/4" over, 1/2" up
Axis Tilt 90*
Axis rotation 45* (I think)

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

icetink · « **Reply #11 on:** September 27, 2004, 08:25:21 PM »

Isn't an axis tilt of 90deg practically a spinner?

I'm not too sure about the difference between axis tilt and axis rotation, but here's my understanding:

http://teamtempest.us/ftp/dino/bowling/Ball%20Reviews/axis%20tilt%20vs.%20axis%20rotation.JPG
--------------------
-Dino

Edited on 9/27/2004 8:26 PM

pjr300 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 27, 2004, 08:39:09 PM »

I think 90* rotation qualifies as a spinner... not tilt, as far as I can tell.

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

charlest · « **Reply #13 on:** September 29, 2004, 10:18:10 PM »

pjr300,

If I might add my 2 cents -

That drilling basically makes your ball act as if it were 1 to 2 levels weaker than it is or if you had drilled it normally with pin under or next to the ring finger. It does this because of at least 2 factors. The increased distance from pin to PAP reduces the amount of RG differential, which, in turn, reduces the amount the ball will eventually flare; this, in turn, reduces the amount of overall hook. These may be larger or smaller degrees of change, depending on the ball's specs and your hand. Because the pin is higher above the midline, the drilled RG is higher; therefore, the ball will go longer.

As I started to say, before I got carried away by the tiny details, it makes the ball appear to be weaker, so you have to play straighter or hit the ball harder or throw slower, etc., etc. Some bowlers do this so they can use stringer balls in weaker situations; some do it because they are crankers. Some do it to impress the girls and their friends.

I'd suggest - Don't do it unless there is a good reason.

--------------------
"We get old too fast, and too late, smart."

Author Topic: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout (Read 8776 times)

pjr300

Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

pjr300

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

Re-Evolution

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

pjr300

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

Re-Evolution

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

Re-Evolution

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

LuckyLefty

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

pjr300

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

JohnP

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

JohnP

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

pjr300

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

icetink

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

pjr300

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout

charlest

Re: Struggle with "pin over bridge, CG in palm" layout