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Author Topic: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation  (Read 8053 times)

J_w73

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Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« on: February 01, 2018, 05:07:14 PM »
With my current grip, I feel I just can't get around the ball and get the rotation on the ball that I would like.  I'm thinking about going more forward in the fingers.  I know the trend is to go more reverse in the fingers and forward in the thumb, but  I've tried more forward in the thumb and I just tend to hang up.  Is there a certain amount of forward in the fingers for a given span or thumb pitch? 

Current grip. Right handed, span is accurate, but with a relaxed un-stretched grip.

Middle  0 L/R, 1/8 reverse, span 4 3/4, use looser inserts
Ring     3/4 R, 1/8 reverse, span 4 3/4, use looser inserts
Thumb 3/4 R, 3/16 reverse, Use a tight thumb hole, thumb on the long side.

I know 3/4 right in the thumb is extreme. My thumb hinges pretty much across my palm and points beyond my pinky when doing the coke can grip test.

Any help is appreciated.  Or if you know the best fitter in the nation I will fly there to have them fit me.
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ignitebowling

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2018, 11:02:11 AM »
Quote from: J_w73 on February 02, 2018, 12:02:38 AM
Quote from: ignitebowling on February 01, 2018, 09:44:55 PM
Hand position. You turn your hand in during the back swing then have to turn back inside to get around the ball. Very common. If you zoom in and slow the video your hand is in a weaker position on the ball. You also turn your hand over early coming around the side of the ball more.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u4LMoDmbLy5SmwXO-MFqpc5nsUzuieR6/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OT5cQBaXEQGqsKzdRpdburXrdaaQDS0k/view?usp=drivesdk

Thank you for the analysis.  Yes I do what you say.  I have figured out that my hand turns because of a tight or limited shoulder.  When I keep the inside of my elbow pointed to my target, my hand naturally turns inside.  This is something I need to work on.  I need to consciously rotate my elbow the opposite way or start with my elbow in a contorted position. Only problem with this, is I get some tendon/joint pain after I do this for a while.

It looks like I need to get under the ball more.  I guess I need to keep my wrist cupped and cocked so it is a strong position.  Any other suggestions?

There is a good chance you cannot not stop your hand from turning in. Im the same way. It is natural for my arm and is very low stress on my shoulder. I have reduced how much I do turn it in and I am happy with it. Stronger wrist position getting more of your hand under the line going across the center of the ball pictured in the previous post above would be good. Maybe bringing your pinky finger in as well could help.

Here is a great link to something you can try practicing to see if it helps give you the feel of a stronger release.


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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2018, 11:25:23 AM »
I have reduced my turn as well. Same thing going on. Non flexible tendon and shoulder.  For me to keep my hand from rotating I would have to point the inside of my elbow at the right wall. 
I have seen that drill and tried it.  I may need to work on it to get a stronger wrist position and feel.  Other issue I have is a callous and pressure on my index finger when I get the ball in that position.  I think I put pressure to try to keep the ball on my hand longer.  Or I need more right pitch in my thumb and pushing on my index finger pushes the ball in a position for the ball to get off my thumb clean.  Trying to fix that issue as well.

Thanks again to everyone for all the help.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 11:33:43 AM by J_w73 »
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2018, 12:40:59 PM »
If you have 3/4 right in you thumb hole as you stated in your first post the last thing you need is more right.

There is a long way between the position you are in and the position in the Slowinski video.  Somewhere in between would be a good start. 
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2018, 01:26:16 PM »
I looked at the video again in slow motion and my hand is a lot closer to that position on my down swing.  In slow motion and paused, my index finger is almost behind the ball and pointing straight down, but I do turn it way early before my ball gets to the bottom of the swing.  So by the time my ball gets to the bottom, I am already on the outside of the ball.
So I need to wait on it more before turning, or I am turning early because the ball is coming off my hand.
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2018, 01:33:36 PM »
Quote from: itsallaboutme on February 02, 2018, 12:40:59 PM
If you have 3/4 right in you thumb hole as you stated in your first post the last thing you need is more right.

There is a long way between the position you are in and the position in the Slowinski video.  Somewhere in between would be a good start. 

If my hand/thumb requires it, then why would more than 3/4 right be wrong?  I'm pretty sure I have a unique hand and thumb hinge.  When I grab a glass, I grab it with the side of my thumb pretty much.  I know 3/4 right is extreme, but I'm just looking for the right fit for my hand.  Every driller always put 0 or 1/8 right in my thumb forever.  I always needed 3/8 or more of reverse to clear and also a ton of bevel.  It wasn't until I punched dozens of holes in a ball that I found that the 3/4 right worked.  It allowed me to go to 3/16 reverse with bevel only needed for comfort.  I'm looking for a driller that can figure my hand out.  Haven't been able to yet.
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2018, 02:34:23 PM »
You are turning early because you think you need to in order to get the ball to react, when in fact it's the opposite. 

As for pitches here's my take, and I've measured a lot of hands.  There are very few people that need extreme pitches.  I'm not saying you aren't one of them.  But from my experience if you have extreme pitches and think you need to go more extreme to be able to do something you are chasing a unicorn. 
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2018, 02:43:23 PM »
Where do you live?
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2018, 02:50:41 PM »
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2018, 03:37:59 PM »
Ive been gone from that area for a while and haven't been back so I can't be much help.  I don't think there is anyone left in the Sacramento area to recommend.  Milo is a ball ho so he could probably help and I know xrayjay is familiar with quality work so maybe he could also help.  Jay is in Sac and I think Milo is in the Stockton area.
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2018, 03:42:55 PM »
Quote from: itsallaboutme on February 02, 2018, 02:34:23 PM
You are turning early because you think you need to in order to get the ball to react, when in fact it's the opposite. 

As for pitches here's my take, and I've measured a lot of hands.  There are very few people that need extreme pitches.  I'm not saying you aren't one of them.  But from my experience if you have extreme pitches and think you need to go more extreme to be able to do something you are chasing a unicorn. 

I'll practice and see if I can wait on the ball to get to the bottom before turning.
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2018, 03:48:13 PM »
Quote from: itsallaboutme on February 02, 2018, 03:37:59 PM
Ive been gone from that area for a while and haven't been back so I can't be much help.  I don't think there is anyone left in the Sacramento area to recommend.  Milo is a ball ho so he could probably help and I know xrayjay is familiar with quality work so maybe he could also help.  Jay is in Sac and I think Milo is in the Stockton area.

I've got to the point I am at on my own, so a lot of proshop guys don't know what to do or are afraid to adjust something because they have never seen a person get out of a ball with 3/4 right in the thumb.  And at that thumb angle my thumb drops right in and I don't have any significant rubbing or callouses.  I want to find someone that can realize my hand is different and know what to do.  Don't know who that would be though.

I've talk to Dave in Stockton a little when he was drilling a ball for my Dad.  Didn't get into it too much other that a wide eyed expression when I told him I have 3/4 right in the thumb.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 03:57:33 PM by J_w73 »
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2018, 04:03:49 PM »
You will have a hard time trying to do it without correcting the backswing.  It starts with your hand/thumb turning in as it passes your hip in your backswing.  When you go practice take some video of your swing so the top is not cut off.  I betting it bumps out at the top then you manipulate and redirect it, losing leverage and turning early.
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2018, 04:06:47 PM »
The one thing you have to realize is there is no magic.  Find something you can get out of without bleeding and go bowl.  Nobody ever changed pitches and suddenly became a great bowler.
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2018, 04:16:01 PM »
Quote from: itsallaboutme on February 02, 2018, 04:06:47 PM
The one thing you have to realize is there is no magic.  Find something you can get out of without bleeding and go bowl.  Nobody ever changed pitches and suddenly became a great bowler.

I used to be a better bowler when I had more forward in my fingers and lofted the ball. haha.  Thanks for the help.
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J_w73

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Re: Staying in the ball longer for more rotation
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2018, 08:59:37 PM »
Quote from: itsallaboutme on February 02, 2018, 04:06:47 PM
The one thing you have to realize is there is no magic.  Find something you can get out of without bleeding and go bowl.  Nobody ever changed pitches and suddenly became a great bowler.

What do you think about the finger laterals?  Is 0 and 3/4 ok or do you prefer 3/8 left 3/8 right?  What about 3/4 left in the middle and 0 in the ring?
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