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Author Topic: Layout change - feedback please  (Read 3596 times)

lefty50

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Layout change - feedback please
« on: June 22, 2010, 07:30:36 PM »
Thoughts on the following appreciated. Stats in profile.... Please, no discussion of "change your release". Can do, different topic.. This conversation is geared toward understanding the relative difference between several drillings...

At Nats this year I noticed that my Mega Recovery was turning both early and weak. Early at Nats has never been an issue, but that is also another story...

Early, too smooth, and weak follows a pattern Ive seen with most of my equipment that's drilled strong like the Mega. Almost everything I have is drilled with pin level or 1/2 inch below and left of the ring (left handed), with Cg slightly pitched out and a weight hole on the PAP. Thumb positive weight hole seems to have little effect. I've tried longer pins and other drills (double thumb, etc) without much success. Going with pin down relative to what I typically use results in more of the same.

However, I've always noticed that the one ball I have (a Special Agent) drilled with pin up slightly and placed between ring and middle with Cg 2-3 inches stacked below that will ALWAYS exhibit a much stronger backend and will always hook as long as I adjust speed. The problem is that it hits weak, flat corners every time no matter what I surface I've adjusted it to.

It appears on the surface (no pun intended) that I shouldn't go lower to find my B game (increase the backend). I've tried moving the pin straight up, but that drill misses the breakpoint entirely... Straight up from the left side of ring finger is no mans land in everything I've tried.

My A game is smooth roll up 10. Nothing wrong with that, but I need a reliable B game.

I've always believed the following:

-Don't drill strong balls weak
- Pin placement up and near middle finger will produce a later break and weaker since it typically means a 5 inch pin-to-pap distance.
- If sliding thru the break point (my normal problem other than Nats this year...) I need a stronger drill, not a weaker drill.

I should also add I favor symmetric cores after 5 asym balls have never reacted well.

Question. If I redrill the Mega Recovery in the configuration of the Special Agent, will I cure the problem of early and weak hit, or will I weaken the reaction since the pin-to-pap is now more like 5 than 3-3/8?

I hope that makes sense... Thoughts?

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dizzyfugu

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Re: Layout change - feedback please
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 03:50:28 AM »
quote:

However, I've always noticed that the one ball I have (a Special Agent) drilled with pin up slightly and placed between ring and middle with Cg 2-3 inches stacked below that will ALWAYS exhibit a much stronger backend and will always hook as long as I adjust speed. The problem is that it hits weak, flat corners every time no matter what I surface I've adjusted it to.


Sounds rather like an entry angle issue to me, sorry. I'd just move the approach a bit, either one foot forward or back, or move both feet and target 1 or 2 boards. If the ball reaction is good (as it sounds), then the way the ball drives through the pins is fishy.
You CAN try a different layout, but IMHO it is a stubborn measure, because there are other, simpler thing sto try first which, yes, include release changes?

Besides: if the ball slides beyond the intended break point, a little more surface might be the easiest solution if you want to tamper with the ball - or stay behind the ball with your hand, and/or probably add more revs through a more cupped wrist position. Again, a new ball/layout would IMHO only be the last resort.

The Mega Recovery will certainly read the lane earlier and offer you a different entry angle than the SA with the same layout, though. But I am not certain if this is truly the solution to your problem?
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leftykev

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Re: Layout change - feedback please
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 11:39:31 AM »
Our stats are pretty similar and from my experience, surface is more important than the drill pattern. But, I've discovered that pin under drillings tend to carry best for me, no matter the surface. This depends on the lane condition as well.

That is why I am about to start using dual angle drillings, so I can fine tune my reaction. But, even with dual angle drillings, surface is still more important.
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Billy Ray

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Re: Layout change - feedback please
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 06:48:46 PM »
Have you tried a weaker drilling ie 5" pin with more surface?
sounds like you are getting your flare too early and its not got enough pop on the backend to get the corners out. With a longer pin you will reduce the flare a bit in the fronts and mids but with the surface get the ball to slow down enough to read the lane where you would like it to. I have a similiar problem with Asym balls that I need to use higher weaker pins and MB placements around 60-90 Degrees.
I have drilled balls like this for alot of lefties with very high success rate.
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lefty50

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Re: Layout change - feedback please
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2010, 12:31:06 AM »
Billy, thanks for the thought. that's close to what I wanted to know. The others missed the point of the message. All I am asking is what's the difference in the drills, not how do I adjust to what's happening... Sigh.
Bottom line, if I read your reply correctly, is that a weaker drill with more surface will react stronger, farther down the lane. True?

Moving to the second part, asym drills, can you describe a little more what the MB 60-90 placements look like? I'd like to get a asym drill that reacts for a high rotation player like me, but it's been abysmal so far... Described from a left handed viewpoint as if on the face of a clock, where will the pin and MB fall and how far from the thumb in the layout you describe?
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agroves

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Re: Layout change - feedback please
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2010, 01:29:32 AM »
I want to touch on a couple of things here:

quote:
Early, too smooth, and weak follows a pattern Ive seen with most of my equipment that's drilled strong like the Mega. Almost everything I have is drilled with pin level or 1/2 inch below and left of the ring (left handed), with Cg slightly pitched out and a weight hole on the PAP. Thumb positive weight hole seems to have little effect. I've tried longer pins and other drills (double thumb, etc) without much success. Going with pin down relative to what I typically use results in more of the same.


Okay, with the pin level to or below your ring creates med response VAL angles.  That means the ball will respond to friction, but not real quickly.  

Can you give us the dual angle layout on your Mega Recovery?  If the MB is a short distance from your pap or a long distance(very small or very large drilling angle), then it will read early and be very smooth on the backend.  We need more info...

quote:
However, I've always noticed that the one ball I have (a Special Agent) drilled with pin up slightly and placed between ring and middle with Cg 2-3 inches stacked below that will ALWAYS exhibit a much stronger backend and will always hook as long as I adjust speed. The problem is that it hits weak, flat corners every time no matter what I surface I've adjusted it to.


This one has a smaller VAL angle, which explains the stronger backend.  However, if you are leaving corners, I think a surface adjustment is in order.  You have ALOT of axis rotation, far more than average, that will cause the ball to push up the lane in oil and jerk off the dry.  Alittle surface, say 1000 to 2000 abralon would help the ball traction alittle earler, smooth the backend slightly and most likely increase carry percentage.

quote:
It appears on the surface (no pun intended) that I shouldn't go lower to find my B game (increase the backend). I've tried moving the pin straight up, but that drill misses the breakpoint entirely... Straight up from the left side of ring finger is no mans land in everything I've tried.

- If sliding thru the break point (my normal problem other than Nats this year...)


This goes back to your axis rotation.  

What is your axis tilt?  I'm thinking you need a dual angle with the sums around 60-70*.  I would consider posting this over at www.bowlingchat.net and see what Mo says.





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lefty50

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Re: Layout change - feedback please
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2010, 07:16:53 AM »
agroves, great info, many thanks. I don't have the info you're asking about, but I'll read up on it tonight when I get home and will post back, plus I'll check into bowlingchat.net.

Thanks again to all for the info...
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agroves

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Re: Layout change - feedback please
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2010, 07:26:16 AM »
The angle between the Pin to PAP line and the VAL is referred to as "the angle to the VAL." This angle is as important as either of the first two components of the Dual Angle Layout Technique™. Changing the angle between the Pin to PAP line and the VAL has a very significant effect on how much the RG and the total differential of the drilled ball changes from the same specifications of the undrilled ball. The angle between the Pin to PAP line and the VAL is effective from a minimum of 20° and to a maximum of approximately 70°.

Using the  minimum 20° angle will result in the drilled ball revving up the quickest and transitioning the fastest at the breakpoint.
Using the  maximum 70° angle will result in the drilled ball revving up the slowest and transitioning the slowest at the breakpoint.
Using a smaller angle between the Pin to PAP line and the VAL (minimum of 20°) will lower the RG and increase the total differential of the drilled ball. These changes will result in the ball revving up faster and transitioning quicker. Using a larger angle between the Pin to PAP line and the VAL (maximum of approximately 70°) will raise the RG and lower the total differential of the drilled ball. These changes will result in the ball revving up slower and transitioning slower.

*courtesy www.morichbowling.com

http://www.morichbowling.com/Drilling/DualAngleSeminar/DualAngleSeminar.htm

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Billy Ray

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Re: Layout change - feedback please
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2010, 02:31:15 PM »
quote:
Billy, thanks for the thought. that's close to what I wanted to know. The others missed the point of the message. All I am asking is what's the difference in the drills, not how do I adjust to what's happening... Sigh.
Bottom line, if I read your reply correctly, is that a weaker drill with more surface will react stronger, farther down the lane. True?

Moving to the second part, asym drills, can you describe a little more what the MB 60-90 placements look like? I'd like to get a asym drill that reacts for a high rotation player like me, but it's been abysmal so far... Described from a left handed viewpoint as if on the face of a clock, where will the pin and MB fall and how far from the thumb in the layout you describe?
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The MB in Asym Balls would look somewhere closer to  your thumb rather than out towards you axis more.

As for weaker yes the weaker (farther) pin would delay the flaring of the ball in the front and middle part of the lanes but the added surface would create friction in the mids more to give you I think a better reaction especially if you are a higher rev player. The covers and cores are so strong now that heavy handed players need to weaken the pin placments to get the ball down the lane more and conserve more energy and allow it to hit at the pins rather than burning up so mucn in the mids. The Surface will help create some friction in the mids but the ball wont flare out too early and hit too soft at the pins.
Alot of guys both right and left drill the strong balls too aggressively for their rev rate.
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lefty50

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Re: Layout change - feedback please
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2010, 07:06:11 PM »
Billy Ray, I definitely am speed dominant with a rev rate down around 250. I've tried a double thumb layout with MB near thumb on a AMF Clutch. Didn't seem to move much, but the Clutch has a Rg of 2.57, which was a real change from my normal. I usually favor balls below 2.50 for the obvious rev up reason....  

Agroves, many thanks also for the info, let me digest this ASAP...
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