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Author Topic: Struggling with Asyms...  (Read 19035 times)

toneoak1

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Struggling with Asyms...
« on: February 15, 2019, 01:22:08 PM »
I can't seem to get a decent reaction from asymmetrical bowling balls.  Why is this?  I don't have the specifics on all of my specs. For example, I don't know my exact axis tilt.  I've never had this measured. I'm left handed, have a high track, and am around 325 RPMs of rev rate.  I'm definitely speed/rev matched.  I tend to set the ball down early.  The majority of the shots off my hand are silent.  I ended last year averaging 235 and am consistently over 225.  The shot at our local alley changes from week to week, sometimes drastically. If any of that is helpful.

The problem is, I would like to take advantage of the added motion of asym equipment but can't.  The last 4 asym balls I've had, I've hated.  I never saw the turn over or flip in any of them.  I had a Storm Virtual Gravity (yes this was a while ago) and I'm pretty sure I'm the only guy on the planet that didn't like that ball.  I had it plugged and re-layed it out and still nothing.  I got rid of it and tried a Storm Invasion;  Hated it.  Down and in was all it did and even then had to be careful.  Couldn't belly it at all, which is my typical shot shape.  Got rid of it.  After some time I thought I'd try one again.  (older=wiser right?) I picked up a Motiv Trident after LOVING my previous 4 motiv balls.  Same issue.  Hated it.  No "booming" move what-so-ever.  I have a ball spinner and I tried polishing it; Nope. Sanding it; Nothing. Trying many different surface grits; Nada.  Put it back in the bag after half a season of experimenting.  Went to get it out for this season and it had cracked all the way around.  Best thing that could have happened.  Got a Motiv Rogue Blade and that ball hockey-sticks for me. 

My guess is the ball is too aggressive for my style and is burning up before it gets to the break point.  After talking to a buddy about it we noticed my last few asyms were all aggressive SOLIDs.  Maybe an asym pearl would help. Something like a Golden Jackyl

I am a mere mortal that has to pay retail or close to it for my bowling balls and can't afford a $270 "experiment". 

Anyone in the same boat?????
Any Ideas?????
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toneoak1

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2019, 06:53:28 PM »
Quote from: Impending Doom on February 15, 2019, 04:20:23 PM
What balls DO work well for you?

I currently am using motiv.  I have a venom toxic, shock, original octane, Rogue Blade, and ascent pearl.  I've really liked all of them.  When I used storm, I had an original reign, a victory road pearl, and a couple others.  I still have a Modern Marvel that I absolutely love on heavier oil.  I can really move right (left handed) and not worry about it coming back.  I would like to find a replacement for that one as it has a lot of games on it.  Oddly enough, it is the only hybrid I've owned.  I also really really liked the vibe and raw series from Hammer about 12 years ago.  All symmetrical.  The last time I had an asym I liked, it was the Black Widow and Black Widow Pearl. 
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toneoak1

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2019, 06:56:46 PM »
Quote from: northface28 on February 15, 2019, 03:53:01 PM
Quote from: itsallaboutme on February 15, 2019, 02:28:51 PM
You average 235 and say the lanes are different every week.  Quit searching for the unicorn.

The reality is most better bowlers prefer symmetric balls.

I have a good friend who was a 2x junior team USA member and his answer is always “asym is NEVER the answer”.

That's good to know.  ;D ;D
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toneoak1

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2019, 07:02:30 PM »
Quote from: bowler001 on February 15, 2019, 04:30:06 PM
Quote from: Brandon Riley on February 15, 2019, 03:37:26 PM
My guess is that the problem is coverstock related.  Most top shelf asyms not only have stronger cores than our favourite midrange symmetrics, but they also use stronger coverstocks.  Its very much possible that these covers are just too strong and aren't matching up to the patterns which you are seeing at your home centre. 
Look into something in the mid-upper range with asymmetry that gets down the lane a little easier like the Vintage Vapor Zone

^^^This. Asymms already have a shorter hook zone than symmetricals, so when you add stronger covers as well, they lose energy rather quickly. Assym balls will transition faster off of friction than a symm ball will, but the trick is that friction isn't always down lane. Brandons recommendation for the Vapor Zone is very good given the limited info provided. That or any other milder cover asymm ball that is intended for skid/flip sounds like what you're really looking for. I'm not referring to pearl versions of high end asymm balls because they typically still don't have much pop on average conditions. They are still strong balls and strong covers and intended to cover boards, not retain lots of energy, just more energy than their solid counterpart.

That's not a bad idea at all.  Picking up a less expensive or even a gently used asymmetrical ball and experimenting with some surface adjustments is a good idea.  I could try different things without having a ton of money tied up in it.  I hate to change the surface or plug and redrill a ball that I haven't had very long.  Thanks.  I will definitely look into this. 
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Impending Doom

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2019, 07:03:33 PM »
Quote from: toneoak1 on February 15, 2019, 06:53:28 PM
Quote from: Impending Doom on February 15, 2019, 04:20:23 PM
What balls DO work well for you?

I currently am using motiv.  I have a venom toxic, shock, original octane, Rogue Blade, and ascent pearl.  I've really liked all of them.  When I used storm, I had an original reign, a victory road pearl, and a couple others.  I still have a Modern Marvel that I absolutely love on heavier oil.  I can really move right (left handed) and not worry about it coming back.  I would like to find a replacement for that one as it has a lot of games on it.  Oddly enough, it is the only hybrid I've owned.  I also really really liked the vibe and raw series from Hammer about 12 years ago.  All symmetrical.  The last time I had an asym I liked, it was the Black Widow and Black Widow Pearl. 

If you liked the Black Widows, get yourself a Black Ops. Seriously, the Widow and the Break (same ball as the Black Ops) look almost identical motion wise on the lanes.
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tkkshop

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2019, 09:55:04 AM »
Quote from: toneoak1 on February 15, 2019, 06:53:28 PM
Quote from: Impending Doom on February 15, 2019, 04:20:23 PM
What balls DO work well for you?

I currently am using motiv.  I have a venom toxic, shock, original octane, Rogue Blade, and ascent pearl.  I've really liked all of them.  When I used storm, I had an original reign, a victory road pearl, and a couple others.  I still have a Modern Marvel that I absolutely love on heavier oil.  I can really move right (left handed) and not worry about it coming back.  I would like to find a replacement for that one as it has a lot of games on it.  Oddly enough, it is the only hybrid I've owned.  I also really really liked the vibe and raw series from Hammer about 12 years ago.  All symmetrical.  The last time I had an asym I liked, it was the Black Widow and Black Widow Pearl.
Venom Recoil may do the trick. Videos should start popping up over the next 2 weeks.
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six pack

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2019, 10:27:41 AM »
the very first thing I do is change the surface on a new ball that is not to my liking. I'll go to the extreme and add a lot of surface to very smooth and polish sometimes on a ball if it's really off from what I was expecting. Takes a lot of trial and error before I give up. thankfully my own experiences over the years has lead me to better choices even though I will venture out with an "experiment" now and then.
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The harder I try the harder they fall

leftybowler70

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2019, 02:12:29 PM »
Quote from: six pack on February 16, 2019, 10:27:41 AM
the very first thing I do is change the surface on a new ball that is not to my liking. I'll go to the extreme and add a lot of surface to very smooth and polish sometimes on a ball if it's really off from what I was expecting. Takes a lot of trial and error before I give up. thankfully my own experiences over the years has lead me to better choices even though I will venture out with an "experiment" now and then.


Nail on the head ^^^^
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Geigs

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2019, 06:44:16 PM »
Hey toneoak1, love doom’s suggestion, black ops is a great ball choice. Clean, smooth, with good continuation. Very versatile as well to surface adjustments. Maybe try it with a pin up close to the Val for even more continuation. I just ordered my second black ops from buddies pro shop, $109.95. Free shipping.  Great price. Sounds  like your asymmetricals are burning up early, stopping on the backend. You need more continuation through the pins. With the new usbc rules  >:( you are going to start seeing more companies making asymmetrical balls since you can’t change the psa, or mb in symmetrical balls using weight holes after August 2020. After that all symmetrical balls will end up wth the psa, mb in the thumb no matter how you drill them.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 06:59:42 PM by Geigs »
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bonez44s

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2019, 07:59:06 PM »
Try a Storm Code X pin down. Closes asym ball to a sym that you will get. Very smooth
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agroves

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2019, 11:56:12 AM »
Most bowlers that struggle with asymmetricals are low tilters.  You said you don't know your specs, please let us know once you find them.  Most PSOs don't measure tilt/axis rotation or even PAPs.  They slap the pin above the bridge and send you on your way.

Pins over 5" from your axis point on asymmetrical equipment burns axis tilt/rotation much faster.  I would guess you are low tilt so your seeing the ball transition early and "sh!t the bed". 
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Geigs

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2019, 03:03:35 PM »
Great point agroves. You are correct. 5+ inch pins on asymmetricals from pap do burn for me. Years ago the saying use to be driil strong balls weak, and weak balls strong. Times are changing. Maybe this is why Mo Pinel, radical don’t suggest drilling weaker than 5 inch pins on any of their equipment. Kinda makes sense now.
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SVstar34

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2019, 03:14:09 PM »
Quote from: Geigs on February 21, 2019, 03:03:35 PM
Great point agroves. You are correct. 5+ inch pins on asymmetricals from pap do burn for me. Years ago the saying use to be driil strong balls weak, and weak balls strong. Times are changing. Maybe this is why Mo Pinel, radical don’t suggest drilling weaker than 5 inch pins on any of their equipment. Kinda makes sense now.

There's a difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical.

Symmetrical max flare is 3 3/8" from PAP.

Asymmetrical max flare is 2.25" - 6.75" minimum flare is 0 - 2.25"

Shorter distance retains tilt longer, longer distance burns tilt faster with asymmetrical
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Geigs

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2019, 03:47:41 PM »
Agree with all of it sv. Find it interesting though that mo, radicals drill charts range from pins 2 1/4-5 1/4 inch distance from pap on all balls. Asymmetrical,
and symmetrical. That’s a pretty strong high flaring range. I can’t drill balls with high pins 3-4 inches from my pap, either asymmetrical, or symmetrical because it flares over my thumbhole.  Bummer. :(
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toneoak1

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2019, 07:17:24 AM »
OK.  Here are a couple videos of me bowling on the Abbey Road pattern.  Maybe this will help seeing as how I don't have access to anything that will help me determine true specs.  The green ball is an Ascent Pearl, and the red ball is a Rogue Blade.  I'm standing 20 boards right with the Rogue when compared to the Ascent.  Hopefully this will help you to help me. 

https://youtu.be/TdNkxsD--oY

https://youtu.be/6uvx64SfT0o

Thanks for all the advice.  There's some really good ideas here for me.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 07:19:16 AM by toneoak1 »
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toneoak1

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2019, 07:58:58 AM »
Quote from: tkkshop on February 16, 2019, 09:55:04 AM
Quote from: toneoak1 on February 15, 2019, 06:53:28 PM
Quote from: Impending Doom on February 15, 2019, 04:20:23 PM
What balls DO work well for you?

I currently am using motiv.  I have a venom toxic, shock, original octane, Rogue Blade, and ascent pearl.  I've really liked all of them.  When I used storm, I had an original reign, a victory road pearl, and a couple others.  I still have a Modern Marvel that I absolutely love on heavier oil.  I can really move right (left handed) and not worry about it coming back.  I would like to find a replacement for that one as it has a lot of games on it.  Oddly enough, it is the only hybrid I've owned.  I also really really liked the vibe and raw series from Hammer about 12 years ago.  All symmetrical.  The last time I had an asym I liked, it was the Black Widow and Black Widow Pearl.
Venom Recoil may do the trick. Videos should start popping up over the next 2 weeks.

I did watch EJ throw it this past weekend.  I was surprised to see how much flare that ball showed.  The ball I'm trying to replace has a lot of flare.  I know that ball will probably be mid-priced, so it's looking like a great option.  Thanks.
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