Author Topic: Struggling with Asyms... (Read 18986 times)

toneoak1 · « **on:** February 15, 2019, 01:22:08 PM »

I can't seem to get a decent reaction from asymmetrical bowling balls. Why is this? I don't have the specifics on all of my specs. For example, I don't know my exact axis tilt. I've never had this measured. I'm left handed, have a high track, and am around 325 RPMs of rev rate. I'm definitely speed/rev matched. I tend to set the ball down early. The majority of the shots off my hand are silent. I ended last year averaging 235 and am consistently over 225. The shot at our local alley changes from week to week, sometimes drastically. If any of that is helpful.

The problem is, I would like to take advantage of the added motion of asym equipment but can't. The last 4 asym balls I've had, I've hated. I never saw the turn over or flip in any of them. I had a Storm Virtual Gravity (yes this was a while ago) and I'm pretty sure I'm the only guy on the planet that didn't like that ball. I had it plugged and re-layed it out and still nothing. I got rid of it and tried a Storm Invasion; Hated it. Down and in was all it did and even then had to be careful. Couldn't belly it at all, which is my typical shot shape. Got rid of it. After some time I thought I'd try one again. (older=wiser right?) I picked up a Motiv Trident after LOVING my previous 4 motiv balls. Same issue. Hated it. No "booming" move what-so-ever. I have a ball spinner and I tried polishing it; Nope. Sanding it; Nothing. Trying many different surface grits; Nada. Put it back in the bag after half a season of experimenting. Went to get it out for this season and it had cracked all the way around. Best thing that could have happened. Got a Motiv Rogue Blade and that ball hockey-sticks for me.

My guess is the ball is too aggressive for my style and is burning up before it gets to the break point. After talking to a buddy about it we noticed my last few asyms were all aggressive SOLIDs. Maybe an asym pearl would help. Something like a Golden Jackyl

I am a mere mortal that has to pay retail or close to it for my bowling balls and can't afford a $270 "experiment".

Anyone in the same boat?

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Any Ideas?

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toneoak1 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 22, 2019, 08:08:34 AM »

Quote from: agroves on February 21, 2019, 11:56:12 AM

Most bowlers that struggle with asymmetricals are low tilters. You said you don't know your specs, please let us know once you find them. Most PSOs don't measure tilt/axis rotation or even PAPs. They slap the pin above the bridge and send you on your way.

Pins over 5" from your axis point on asymmetrical equipment burns axis tilt/rotation much faster. I would guess you are low tilt so your seeing the ball transition early and "sh!t the bed".

We have one PSO in town and he's not good at all. I bought one ball from him for my wife and told him how I wanted it layed out. It came back not even close. The same year a friend of mine bought two balls from him and the first night we bowled with his new equipment he had a ball hang up on his thumb and it literally hit the ceiling about 15 feet downlane. Just like a youtube fail video. The guy I go to now only comes to town every 3rd week but he's excellent. He has my Specs on file and knows my PAP. I've just never sat down and gone through it all with him in a long time as he is usually very busy when he DOES come to town. I did post a reply with 2 videos of me rolling 2 different balls. I'm hoping the visual will help someone make a solid estimate as to why strong asymmetrical balls and I do not get along. I'm thinking you're right about the massive loss of energy. Please take a look at the videos. I'm curious about your opinion.

imagonman · « **Reply #32 on:** February 22, 2019, 09:54:27 AM »

To find your PAP & tilt you can trace the 1st oil line closest to the holes around the ball {don't forget to cross over @ the bowties} & then measure the distance between them, find & mark the center turn ball 90* do it there as well put a piece of tape on the PAP to verify. Remember what that distance between the oil lines is, subtract from 27" circumference of the ball & look it up on the ball tilt chart to get an idea where you are tilt wise.

toneoak1 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 22, 2019, 09:58:02 AM »

Quote from: imagonman on February 22, 2019, 09:54:27 AM

To find your PAP & tilt you can trace the 1st oil line closest to the holes around the ball {don't forget to cross over @ the bowties} & then measure the distance between them, find & mark the center turn ball 90* do it there as well put a piece of tape on the PAP to verify. Remember what that distance between the oil lines is, subtract from 27" circumference of the ball & look it up on the ball tilt chart to get an idea where you are tilt wise.

AWESOME. THANK YOU!!!

toneoak1 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 22, 2019, 11:45:30 AM »

Quote from: imagonman on February 22, 2019, 09:54:27 AM

To find your PAP & tilt you can trace the 1st oil line closest to the holes around the ball {don't forget to cross over @ the bowties} & then measure the distance between them, find & mark the center turn ball 90* do it there as well put a piece of tape on the PAP to verify. Remember what that distance between the oil lines is, subtract from 27" circumference of the ball & look it up on the ball tilt chart to get an idea where you are tilt wise.

Just to make sure I'm understanding this... To find my PAP without an armadillo, I trace the first oil line all the way around and place the ball so that the line is parallel to the table. The PAP should be at the top of the ball correct? I do have a spinner so that should be relatively easy to make accurate. My next question would be, to Find the PAP where do I measure from? Is it the center of my grip? Then where you way measure the distance between the oil lines, I'm assuming I measure at the widest point? Thanks again.

Impending Doom · « **Reply #35 on:** February 22, 2019, 12:00:58 PM »

Quote from: toneoak1 on February 22, 2019, 11:45:30 AM

Quote from: imagonman on February 22, 2019, 09:54:27 AM
To find your PAP & tilt you can trace the 1st oil line closest to the holes around the ball {don't forget to cross over @ the bowties} & then measure the distance between them, find & mark the center turn ball 90* do it there as well put a piece of tape on the PAP to verify. Remember what that distance between the oil lines is, subtract from 27" circumference of the ball & look it up on the ball tilt chart to get an idea where you are tilt wise.

Just to make sure I'm understanding this... To find my PAP without an armadillo, I trace the first oil line all the way around and place the ball so that the line is parallel to the table. The PAP should be at the top of the ball correct? I do have a spinner so that should be relatively easy to make accurate. My next question would be, to Find the PAP where do I measure from? Is it the center of my grip? Then where you way measure the distance between the oil lines, I'm assuming I measure at the widest point? Thanks again.

To get a true read, do this on the least dynamic ball you have.

toneoak1 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 22, 2019, 12:13:39 PM »

Quote from: Impending Doom on February 22, 2019, 12:00:58 PM

Quote from: toneoak1 on February 22, 2019, 11:45:30 AM
Quote from: imagonman on February 22, 2019, 09:54:27 AM
To find your PAP & tilt you can trace the 1st oil line closest to the holes around the ball {don't forget to cross over @ the bowties} & then measure the distance between them, find & mark the center turn ball 90* do it there as well put a piece of tape on the PAP to verify. Remember what that distance between the oil lines is, subtract from 27" circumference of the ball & look it up on the ball tilt chart to get an idea where you are tilt wise.

Just to make sure I'm understanding this... To find my PAP without an armadillo, I trace the first oil line all the way around and place the ball so that the line is parallel to the table. The PAP should be at the top of the ball correct? I do have a spinner so that should be relatively easy to make accurate. My next question would be, to Find the PAP where do I measure from? Is it the center of my grip? Then where you way measure the distance between the oil lines, I'm assuming I measure at the widest point? Thanks again.

To get a true read, do this on the least dynamic ball you have.

That was going to be my next question. I have a couple that don't flare much and one that flares a ton. Thanks for reading my mind.

Geigs · « **Reply #37 on:** February 22, 2019, 01:52:09 PM »

Great point doom. I traced my track from a high pin black ops few years back. Came out pap 4 3/8 over, up 1/4. Well turns out I was way off all this time. Just did the powerhouse bowler Iâ€™d test. Came out 5 3/8 over, up 7/8. Huge difference. I recommend doing this test if your pso has the kit. Also measures speed, tilt, rev rate. Great tool, very accurate. If not measure your track with a plastic, urethane ball that doesnâ€™t flare.

six pack · « **Reply #38 on:** February 24, 2019, 09:03:05 AM »

Quote from: Geigs on February 22, 2019, 01:52:09 PM

Great point doom. I traced my track from a high pin black ops few years back. Came out pap 4 3/8 over, up 1/4. Well turns out I was way off all this time. Just did the powerhouse bowler I’d test. Came out 5 3/8 over, up 7/8. Huge difference. I recommend doing this test if your pso has the kit. Also measures speed, tilt, rev rate. Great tool, very accurate. If not measure your track with a plastic, urethane ball that doesn’t flare.

+1
This is the part where I get confused.

On high flaring balls my track is considerably lower then on low flaring balls even though my track diameter stays the same. I have my own theory that because the high flaring stuff has way more shape and my trajectory is different that my release is different between low flaring and high flaring balls but that doesn't really explain how the track diameter stays the same other then tilt stays the same regardless.

J_w73 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 27, 2019, 02:50:05 PM »

Quote from: agroves on February 21, 2019, 11:56:12 AM

Most bowlers that struggle with asymmetricals are low tilters. You said you don't know your specs, please let us know once you find them. Most PSOs don't measure tilt/axis rotation or even PAPs. They slap the pin above the bridge and send you on your way.

Pins over 5" from your axis point on asymmetrical equipment burns axis tilt/rotation much faster. I would guess you are low tilt so your seeing the ball transition early and "sh!t the bed".

I would agree with this as well. I experience the same issues. And ironically the Hammer Widows are pretty much the only asymmetrical balls that have worked well for me.

J_w73 · « **Reply #40 on:** February 27, 2019, 03:01:22 PM »

Quote from: toneoak1 on February 22, 2019, 07:17:24 AM

OK. Here are a couple videos of me bowling on the Abbey Road pattern. Maybe this will help seeing as how I don't have access to anything that will help me determine true specs. The green ball is an Ascent Pearl, and the red ball is a Rogue Blade. I'm standing 20 boards right with the Rogue when compared to the Ascent. Hopefully this will help you to help me.

https://youtu.be/TdNkxsD--oY

https://youtu.be/6uvx64SfT0o

Thanks for all the advice. There's some really good ideas here for me.

Looking at your videos, just be happy with what you can do with the ball and use what works for you. You have plenty of shape and don't need much help. I was caught in the same rut you are. Trying to use asyms and strong balls because they "hook a ton". Well they hook a ton for everyone else. Asyms and strong covers do for me exactly what you have described. They hook less and cover less boards. I don't know why they hook more and cover more boards for everyone else. That still stumps me, but I just go with what works. Hustle ink on a 45 ft pattern.. if that is what works then I use it. I have wasted too many shots trying to make the hook monsters work because they are supposed to be the ball to use on heavy long oil.. Use what gives you the best motion and carries.

BowlingForDonuts · « **Reply #41 on:** February 27, 2019, 03:43:27 PM »

Quote from: J_w73 on February 27, 2019, 03:01:22 PM

Quote from: toneoak1 on February 22, 2019, 07:17:24 AM
OK. Here are a couple videos of me bowling on the Abbey Road pattern. Maybe this will help seeing as how I don't have access to anything that will help me determine true specs. The green ball is an Ascent Pearl, and the red ball is a Rogue Blade. I'm standing 20 boards right with the Rogue when compared to the Ascent. Hopefully this will help you to help me.

https://youtu.be/TdNkxsD--oY

https://youtu.be/6uvx64SfT0o

Thanks for all the advice. There's some really good ideas here for me.

Looking at your videos, just be happy with what you can do with the ball and use what works for you. You have plenty of shape and don't need much help. I was caught in the same rut you are. Trying to use asyms and strong balls because they "hook a ton". Well they hook a ton for everyone else. Asyms and strong covers do for me exactly what you have described. They hook less and cover less boards. I don't know why they hook more and cover more boards for everyone else. That still stumps me, but I just go with what works. Hustle ink on a 45 ft pattern.. if that is what works then I use it. I have wasted too many shots trying to make the hook monsters work because they are supposed to be the ball to use on heavy long oil.. Use what gives you the best motion and carries.

+1. No bonus points for boards covered and never know what you match up well with.

toneoak1 · « **Reply #42 on:** March 03, 2019, 08:08:42 PM »

Quote from: J_w73 on February 27, 2019, 03:01:22 PM

Quote from: toneoak1 on February 22, 2019, 07:17:24 AM
OK. Here are a couple videos of me bowling on the Abbey Road pattern. Maybe this will help seeing as how I don't have access to anything that will help me determine true specs. The green ball is an Ascent Pearl, and the red ball is a Rogue Blade. I'm standing 20 boards right with the Rogue when compared to the Ascent. Hopefully this will help you to help me.

https://youtu.be/TdNkxsD--oY

https://youtu.be/6uvx64SfT0o

Thanks for all the advice. There's some really good ideas here for me.

Looking at your videos, just be happy with what you can do with the ball and use what works for you. You have plenty of shape and don't need much help. I was caught in the same rut you are. Trying to use asyms and strong balls because they "hook a ton". Well they hook a ton for everyone else. Asyms and strong covers do for me exactly what you have described. They hook less and cover less boards. I don't know why they hook more and cover more boards for everyone else. That still stumps me, but I just go with what works. Hustle ink on a 45 ft pattern.. if that is what works then I use it. I have wasted too many shots trying to make the hook monsters work because they are supposed to be the ball to use on heavy long oil.. Use what gives you the best motion and carries.

Appreciate the input. With the new drilling limitations, more companies are going to put out more asymmetrical equipment. I prefer motiv and I see one of their most popular lines (venom) just released an asym core. I love that line but am super hesitant to look into the new Recoil. I just hope they don't quit on symmetrical cores entirely. I'll have to take up a new hobby like involuntary taxidermy.

J_w73 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 03, 2019, 10:59:06 PM »

If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #44 on:** March 05, 2019, 11:34:39 AM »

To be really clear Toneoak1, I would like to understand.

Way back in your orignial one or two posts you mentioned that you plugged and redrilled your original Virtual Gravity. Was that after buying it from another bowler? Or after buying new and drilling it the first time?

You see the only reason is that as a lefty also I would occasionally pick up Assym balls from righties. Usually when I switch to Lefty I do not find the to be full horsepower even after a single redrill.

For Symmetric I also often switch righty balls to lefty and don't encounter this problem

Note I do not run into this problem as much when the MB is under the thumb already or if symmetric is a label leverage for a righty. Then it seems the ball with virtually only moving the fingers is full horse power on the left.

Another thing I have noticed, Well that is enough for now!

Regards,

Luckylefty

J_w73 · « **Reply #45 on:** March 05, 2019, 03:03:18 PM »

Quote from: J_w73 on March 03, 2019, 10:59:06 PM

If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd. I polished it up and it reacts way better. Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment.

Well maybe not. The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but I took it to another house and not much would move. Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know. I think I just hate asymmetricals too.

Author Topic: Struggling with Asyms... (Read 18986 times)

toneoak1

Struggling with Asyms...

toneoak1

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

imagonman

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

toneoak1

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

toneoak1

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

Impending Doom

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

toneoak1

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

Geigs

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

six pack

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

J_w73

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

J_w73

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

BowlingForDonuts

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

toneoak1

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

J_w73

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

LuckyLefty

Re: Struggling with Asyms...

J_w73

Re: Struggling with Asyms...