Author Topic: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions? (Read 10309 times)

dursty · « **on:** July 29, 2009, 02:38:00 PM »

I'm a medium rev rate player 310 to 370 depending on release and speed. I haven't had much luck with strong asymmetrical mb cores in general and I'm wondering if other people are running into over/under reactions with these types of balls. For me once they get to the 'spot' (on pbax patterns, medium too hard kegel patterns) they either over-react or wiggle and not make it to the pocket -way- too frequently after I'm lined up for my taste. Some examples Rogue cell, Pearl cell, NVD, Virtual gravity.. etc. Not say they -never- work well, however it's rare enough that I'm having difficulty identifying the -look- where I would benefit from one of them. Too many occasions I think the look is there and I'll go xxxx 53 xx 72 type of game (splits from crazy/weird/erratic down lane reaction). From watching some of the better tournament bowlers in my area I think they can identify with that type off ball reaction using these high mass bias cores as well (VG comes to mind as it's easily spotted). Part of me is beginning to believe these mb balls are more beneficial for lower rev rate players that can take advantage of the extra core torque that these balls can create down lane. I noticed while browsing Jeff Carter's tournament arsenal he has very few strong MB balls in his arsenal where as Walter Ray almost uses them exclusively now.

Question..

What are some layouts and cover stock preps that people with similar medium / high rev rates have used successfully that roll -different enough- from your symmetrical balls where they have been beneficial? What type of patterns/volumes did this work on better. Part of my thinking is that if you drill the guts out of strong mb ball, could you not duplicate that reaction with a symmetrical ball assuming the same coverstock? Curious to hear some of the responses to this.

the pooh · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2009, 11:35:29 PM »

Most like to drill everything "strong". I have had good results with several of the Cell models drilled basically in their 2 1/2 x 5 layout or variations thereof. This layout flares slightly less than those between 3 1/2" and 6" pin to pap layouts, but hit great, especially for someone 300 rpm or more. I currently have a Rogue Cell laid out 2 3/4" x 5 with a 1 1/2" pin buffer and it is a truck on longer or heavier patterns. Going by the dual angle system, this ball is 50* x 2 3/4 x 35*. I also have had other similar layouts and loved the reaction. I think too many bowlers pass this layout up in favor of "stronger" ones. If you haven't tried one of close pin to pap layouts, you really should!

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the pooh

the pooh · « **Reply #2 on:** July 29, 2009, 11:39:02 PM »

Also , I keep the ball between Gold Scotchbrite(1200 US) and 4000 abralon(2000 US). Depends on how much oil you are on and your rev rate and rotation of axis. Surface can always be tuned.
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the pooh

the pooh · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2009, 11:45:24 PM »

I forgot to mention, I also have a Bounty 1 1/2" x 6 1/2" 7/8" pin buffer(80* x1 1/2" x 35*). Very controllable , yet hits great! I love these close- pin lay outs on asymmetricals.

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the pooh

Bluff · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2009, 11:56:07 PM »

strong drill it weak
weak drill it strong

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I like bowling because it give me 3 holes of fun.

Spider Ball Bowler · « **Reply #5 on:** July 29, 2009, 11:59:44 PM »

I like to throw the MB on the negative side of the thumb and make sure the ball has a sanded finish of some kind usually around 4000.

More often than not that works for me and I'm a higher speed, medium rev type guy, that plays pretty straight.

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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!

charlest · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2009, 09:24:37 AM »

quote:
... Part of me is beginning to believe these mb balls are more beneficial for lower rev rate players that can take advantage of the extra core torque that these balls can create down lane. I noticed while browsing Jeff Carter's tournament arsenal he has very few strong MB balls in his arsenal where as Walter Ray almost uses them exclusively now.

To a certain extent this is true. Strong MB balls can provide more backend, depending on the drilling. But, in general, they are much more flexible in the ball reaction you can get from them, as compared to symmetric cored balls. See some of The Pooh's posts above to see what I mean.

quote:

Question..

What are some layouts and cover stock preps that people with similar medium / high rev rates have used successfully that roll -different enough- from your symmetrical balls where they have been beneficial?

The Asymmetric can use the same type of drillings as symmetrics, plus they can use many that are unique to ASymmetrics. Again see The Poohs replies above for some unique examples that will generally not work the same with symmetric cored balls.

quote:

What type of patterns/volumes did this work on better.

That depends on the ball's designer's intentions. What the ball was designed to do. They are nto all the same. Covers and core strengths all vary from one end to the other, as does the mass bias strength of each core.

quote:

Part of my thinking is that if you drill the guts out of strong mb ball, could you not duplicate that reaction with a symmetrical ball assuming the same coverstock? Curious to hear some of the responses to this.

Having had the same problems and some of the same (bad, erroneous) guesses as you have here, for a number of years, I was at the same stage: ready to give up and stick with symmetric cores. But a couple of years ago, I got lucky with some milder mass bias balls of around .017 more or less and learned two major lessons.

1. The stronger the MB strength of the core, the more sensitive is the placement of the MB. The wrong MB placement can completely destroy the ball's reaction, no matter where the pin is placed.

2. The MB placement is also very sensitive to the real PAP, as well as the tilt, ball speed, and rotation of the release.

I would guess that 90% of the time, the reason an asymmetric cored ball is reacting right is that the MB placement is wrong for the bowler, the pin placement and the desired reaction. Many drillers still do not understand the complex concepts involved or they put the same MB placement, a generic strong one, no matter how the bowler throws the ball.

The only other idea that some people seem to ignore is, in general, once drilled, an asymmetric cored ball will react less well to hand/release changes than a symmetric cored ball. And the stronger the MB, the less well it will react. This is just IN GENERAL, not a "will never react" kind of thing.

Asymmetrics, seem to me, are more flexible with what you can do with them with drillings and less flexible with what you can do with them once drilled.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

tenpinspro · « **Reply #7 on:** July 30, 2009, 11:29:26 AM »

Hey dursty, (charlest's response is spot on)

I'd also like to add that the 3 most important parts of drilling asym pieces correctly are the mb strength, distance to pap and the cover of the piece. Based on your description, your mb placement does sound like it is placed in a strong position for you (as pooh has stated) which should work fine on house shots. However, on most pba/sport/flatter patterns (where free hook or hold is not present), this reaction shape can or will become O/U from the front to back part of the lane.

My personal experience and testing has shown that asym pieces at .022+ start to become sensitive to positioning, the stronger the mb, the more sensitive in positioning it also becomes.

Not sure if you're familiar with my coffee cup analogy (that I wrote in the Track forum 4-5 yrs ago) where the mb is the handle on a cup but imagine that handle now being 3 times the weight/size. We would only need to turn it "x" amount over the edge of a table for the cup to fall off, where as if the handle were lighter/smaller (.008), it would have to be turned completely to where it hangs off the edge of a table to fall off.

Back to the movement of a piece with a strong mb placement. Let's hypothetically say this ball hooks 10-12 boards once it encounters friction or comes out of a pattern. On tougher conditions, say where there's OB at 9-10 board, this would force us to keep the ball around 11 board at the breakpoint. Now from 11 board, the ball encounters friction and wants to hook 10 boards, 11+10 = 21, the pocket sits at 17 so that puts us right on the nose or a high hit. So yes, I agree and understand what you're dealing with. For the tougher patterns, I always suggest to throw more controlled pieces where they do not hook as much once they exit a pattern or encounter friction.

Asym pieces can be very good once utilized correctly but its primary function is to basically help us control reaction shape more so than a sym piece. Not knowing your layouts and where your mb to pap is on the pieces you're not happy with makes it hard to make a fair assessment.

As charlest stated a long time ago, these days we buy a reaction and that is very true. Hope this helps some...

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Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion

bowler001 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2009, 12:00:09 PM »

quote:
Jeff Carter's tournament arsenal he has very few strong MB balls in his arsenal where as Walter Ray almost uses them exclusively now.

One thing to remember when saying this, is that Walter Ray is a staffer for MoRich, whose been developing some of the strongest asymmetrical cores since 2000. I don't believe Mo has ever released a symmetrical core in any of his balls(as far as i can remember), therefore Walter Ray wouldn't have the option of that anyways.

My rev rate is between 360-390 and my best reactions from assymetrical stuff comes from layouts with the mb further from my pap (5.5" or more and well inside my val), otherwise, that ball tends to rev to quickly and have a squirty reaction.

Edited on 7/30/2009 12:00 PM

six pack · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2009, 11:05:29 PM »

another thing to consider,strong asymetric balls tend to amplify an inconsistent release as symetric core balls are more forgiving.also asymetric core balls are drilled for a specific reaction,you can take three asy balls of the same and drill them for three different reactions.symetric cored balls tend to be more "benchmark".I find if a certain asymetric ball works it works very good but if you don't match up then put it away.I can usually grind out some good games with the symetric stuff but I love the asy cores and find them hard to put down.
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The harder I try the harder they fall

Jay · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2009, 01:43:05 AM »

quote:
Most like to drill everything "strong". I have had good results with several of the Cell models drilled basically in their 2 1/2 x 5 layout or variations thereof. This layout flares slightly less than those between 3 1/2" and 6" pin to pap layouts, but hit great, especially for someone 300 rpm or more. I currently have a Rogue Cell laid out 2 3/4" x 5 with a 1 1/2" pin buffer and it is a truck on longer or heavier patterns. Going by the dual angle system, this ball is 50* x 2 3/4 x 35*. I also have had other similar layouts and loved the reaction. I think too many bowlers pass this layout up in favor of "stronger" ones. If you haven't tried one of close pin to pap layouts, you really should!
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the pooh

I assume, because you said even 6" will flare more than 2 3/4" pin placements, that the same rules regarding flare don't apply to asymmetrics as symmetrics. I've read Mo's article about that(dual angle) but I considered it easier to just think the same rules did apply as to symmetrics.

Is 3 3/8" still max flare? Does "shorter pin distances for sooner roll and longer pin distances for later roll" still apply? If so, it seems like there's no way to get a smaller amount of flare AND get a ball to go longer. And 've never understood the more side roll/more forward roll thing for the large flare section.

Just hoping to get a better understanding of this so that I may have a better chance of matching up to my next asymmetrical ball. I don't have a lot of experience with them but for the most part I haven't matched up well to them. The Twisted Fury was probably my favorite but about 5 months and a resurface later it became too sensitive to oil. Before that I liked it and got a pretty nice backend reaction out of it. It was drilled 5 1/2" x 3" or really close pin down. I had an Angular One that was okay for me drilled close to 4 3/4" x 3 pin up. That was a somewhat smooth ball for me unless it encountered early friction. I'm just throwing info out there.

Sorry for going a little off-topic but maybe my questions and the answers to them will help others as well.

Xcessive_Evil · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2009, 04:17:25 AM »

quote:

I assume, because you said even 6" will flare more than 2 3/4" pin placements, that the same rules regarding flare don't apply to asymmetrics as symmetrics. I've read Mo's article about that(dual angle) but I considered it easier to just think the same rules did apply as to symmetrics.

I like to think the rules for both apply until you go further than 3 3/8. After that, it is indeed different. My 6" pin asym UpRising flares more than my 5" sym lanebreaker.

quote:
Is 3 3/8" still max flare? Does "shorter pin distances for sooner roll and longer pin distances for later roll" still apply? If so, it seems like there's no way to get a smaller amount of flare AND get a ball to go longer. And 've never understood the more side roll/more forward roll thing for the large flare section.

Yes. Also the side roll/forward roll part that is mentioned I think pertains to the bowlers axis tilt/rotation. This is something I've been working on this summer.

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You may be the better bowler, but my car would blow the doors off of yours.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/

tenpinspro · « **Reply #12 on:** July 31, 2009, 12:23:58 PM »

quote:
If so, it seems like there's no way to get a smaller amount of flare AND get a ball to go longer.

In true reaction sense Strike, you're right. However, it depends on the individual's physical game consisting of his/her tilt, rotation angle and speed to rev ratio.

If a bowler has the natural attributes of creating skid (whether thru tilt, speed, loft etc.), he/she will tend to be able to utilize the very controlled or mellow layouts that Pooh is mentioning. Now add in the weaker positioning of the pin, when this core moves, it can only move "x" amount which translates into a much more controlled reaction. I agree, these types of layouts may become a little condition specific for some and is very similar to my Leong-Hall layout which is designed for control "but" can be utilized if the bowler matches up to it or if there is enough head oil present to help preserve enough energy for down lane reaction and hitting/driving power.

Controlling backend is simply another way of keeping a ball in play when a condition makes it difficult to do so. Based on Dursty's explanation and trouble he is having with his piece that turns over too hard or too little on the back, these types of layouts would at least offer him a look at the pocket.

Mo and Del liked doing this at first in regards to their "drier" lane balls that I saw. The Dry Heat was a piece that actually rolled a little early but because it would expend some of its energy in the front part of the lane, it also did not or could not "flip" on the backend. I saw the Sahara react pretty much the same way. Just a different way of attacking a condition...
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Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion

tenpinspro · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2009, 01:22:02 PM »

One more thing guys if this will help explain some. When we encounter what we each define as over/under or wet/dry, there are a few contributing factors that may be causing this.

1) strong ball
2) strong layout
3) lift effort

These three things are what I call positives that assist in our reaction. So therefore, what if we can remove or reduce one of these positives to help balance out the reaction some? Our choices are then....

1) weaker ball
2) weak layout
3) less lift effort

A weaker ball may become more sensitive to the oil present, we may like the ball choice but in conjunction with the strong layout is what makes it too much when it exits a pattern or encounters friction.

Applying less lift effort causes for good versatility and change in feel that not all are easily adaptable to.

This is why the weaker layout would (on a generic average) be the better choice imho. It would cause for less change in our physical game and allow us to be more ourselves in the sense of execution and repetition. Repetition is still the name of this game.
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Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion

Edited on 8/1/2009 1:43 PM

Author Topic: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions? (Read 10309 times)

dursty

Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

the pooh

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

the pooh

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

the pooh

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

Bluff

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

Spider Ball Bowler

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

charlest

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

tenpinspro

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

bowler001

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

six pack

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

Jay

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

Xcessive_Evil

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

tenpinspro

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?

tenpinspro

Re: Anybody have problems with asymmetrical balls in general? Solutions?