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Author Topic: The difficult coke bottle test!  (Read 15078 times)

LuckyLefty

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The difficult coke bottle test!
« on: October 14, 2004, 03:45:51 AM »
If one does not have a fitting ball (the best method) but wants to get there lateral thumb pitch correct.  A very important task analgous to getting a proper grip in golf.

You see the proper lateral thumb pitch allows one to use there natural anatomy in their favor and if set properly allows the bowler to easily and naturally get the fingers around the side of the ball so that the arm can travel up the path of the ball(or even to the outside of the ball slightly and give the ball enough side turn to get back to the pocket).  This proper motion is analgous to the inside out swing in golf.  Those with the proper grip can return the clubface to square or slightly closed to the path of the clubhead swing and get the ball to draw(hook).  Those with the improper grip cannot swing on the inside path and get the ball to hook, they can only hook if they pull the ball.

So it is in bowling.  Those without this position properly set for their anatomy cannot properly get their arm to swing inside out and still hook the ball without all sorts of compensations.  (Why make it hard).

Thus the Coke bottle test to determine the proper lateral pitch!  Very good substitute for the fitting ball.

Many people however have trouble with the coke bottle test.  Recently one of our users on this site JJWEB was trying to fix pitch and span.  Honestly looking for help he sent pictures to our community asking for help.

I think I and some of the in the business drilling daily gurus have maybe helped him.  I also pointed out to him his incorrect steps in performing coke bottle test and hopefully helped him do it correctly.

He was nice enough to allow me to use his pictures to illustrate how not to do the coke bottle test and how to do it right!  This is not meant to insult him but only to possibly help others!  I thank him for his pictures!

Here we go.

1st attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxMTk4NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

This won't do, this bottle way smaller than a 16 ounce or 20 ounce coke bottle does not even cause the user to grasp it with the thumb.  Object is just in palm of hand.  Falsely gives a result of 1/8 lateral out.

2nd attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAxNjg1NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
This won't do either, this LARGE 24 ounce coke bottle does not allow grasping with the thumb also giving a false result of 1/8 lateral out!

3rd attempt
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNjAyMDYzNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

Ah hah finally a bottle that allows grasping a 16 ounce bottle!!!
The coke bottle at 16 ounces to 12 ounces is still thebest!
But now we see the real result.  Thumb TIP points at his RING finger!  
Well that is a big difference! That calls for 3/8 lateral right.

Quite a difference from our first result of 1/8 left lateral.

I've made some recommendations based on these pictures to Mr. JJWeb lets see how things shake out!

Thanks JJ.

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS hope this helps somebody!
PPS again the final test is to go out to your center and see where your arm travels in relation to your ball path.  Here is a great test if you have the resources to do it!  
1. Drill up 3 to 4 balls exactly the same except for lateral thumb pitch.  Since I test at 1/4 lateral under palm(left for me) I bring balls set at 0, 1/8 lateral under palm, 1/4 lateral under palm and 3/8 lateral under palm.
2. Throw each one being careful to monitor where your arm travels inrelation to the ball path.  All of a sudden you will see it!  

The balls with too little lateral under palm for you will NOT hook back if you swing your arm to the outside of the ball path even the least little bit!  The balls with Too much lateral under palm pitch will always have to be thrown with your arm traveling well outside the proper ball path and will make it hard to stay behind the ball if you decide to do that.  Finally with just the proper lateral  under palm pitch your arm will be able to go straight up the ball path or just slightly outside the ball path and still return the ball back to the pocket.... ah perfection.  (note the answer does not HAVE to be lateral under palm, it more often is but it does not HAVE to be for your anatomy).

This exercise is so much easier to do with golf.  We just take a student and teach him how to swing the club thru the tee spot on an inside to out line.
If he slices we strengthen the grip until the ball starts to return back towards the target(the perfect small draw).  We don't have to bring four sets of grips etc.  

However the concept is the same!  Bon Appetit!
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

 

LuckyLefty

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2004, 09:32:00 AM »
Jim,

Great post,  I was aware of the pros changing finger pitches forward and reverse for more lift or less depending on condition.

I had not heard of quick changes to thumb pitches.

Either here or in another post, maybe you could elaborate on changes that you know are being made for ball roll tweaks.

Thanks,

Luckyl
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

jimensminger

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2004, 10:13:28 AM »
for example,..I drilled my Au79, that I want as a skid/flip ball, with the thumb 3/8 rev, 3/8 rt lat. This sets my thumb to give me the ease of clearing the ball earlier, and with more tilt, results are more revs and flare for the desired reaction. If I'm drilling a ball I want to use for a more forward roll, like my Anomaly in heavy oil, I take out some of the lateral, say back to 1/8 rt lat. If I know that I want to drill a ball that will clear the heads I'll take some of the reverse out of the pitch so I can loft it easier over the foul line with out having to knuckle the thumb..Duke drills all his thumb holes with "0" lateral, and adjusts his tape tightness and hand position to get the desired results,..he's great and can do that. I've found, along with a lot of others, it's easier to move the pitches, rather than to try and change releases.  Basically I'm a 1/8"rev and 1/8"rt lat,..but have found that adjusting pitches helps me to do more of what I want to with the ball in specific conditions with different balls. Years of trail and error,..having access to pro shops, and being able to drill my own stuff is nice to help be able to do this. For the average bowler with 5-6 balls bowling a couple leagues a week, this might be a little much. But it's something I feel is a necessity to be able to compete at a higher level. Just by changing balls with a different pitch, I can create a different reaction, roll, and entry angle. jim
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LuckyLefty

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2004, 10:21:33 AM »
Awesome!!

Great info from a phenomenal tournament bowler!

REgards,

Luckylefty
Similar to what golfers do from shot to shot to change shape.
Always starting with their core or optimal grip position and then tweaking around it!

Awesome!
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

jimensminger

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2004, 10:38:05 AM »
same basic thing,..for the ones that can do it,..it's not for everyone whether golf or bowling,..Irwin, Woods, Garcia, can all work the ball by changing grips and set up from strong to weak, etc...bowling is the same,..you can either change you grips from strong to weak with pitches,..or change your release from strong to weak...6 of one,...half a dozen of another.
What I'll sometimes suggest for customers that are looking for "more hook" is a pitch change that will allow them a little more revs, and a faster release..Rather than buying a new ball, we'll just "soup-up" the old one..
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JohnP

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2004, 12:06:20 PM »
jimensminger --

quote:
For the average bowler with 5-6 balls bowling a couple leagues a week, this might be a little much.


You are dealing with a lot different "average bowler" than I (and I suspect, most other ball drillers) am.  My "average" customer - if there is such a thing - has at most two balls, and wants to replace one of them.  He/she bowls in one league and averages 175 (male) or 145 (female).  They are either satisfied with their grip, that makes it easy, or have a problem with either the thumb or a finger that is hurting their hand.  What they want is a grip they can use without pain.  Many are moving up from urethane to their first reactive resin ball.  Now admittedly my shop is "out in the hicks", but I don't think I'm that much different than others.  And in defining my "average" customer, I have eliminated the beginning youngsters that are buying a 10 lb Maxim with a conventional grip.  They are probably at least 40% of the balls I sell.  Now, that's the level bowler I'm talking about when discussing fitting.  I have maybe three customers that might possibly benefit from adjusting pitches to change reaction, and they wouldn't spend the $$$ to try it.  --  JohnP

DP3

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2004, 12:26:13 PM »
Hey Lefty, I do twohand it whenever the shot is wide open but i still put my thumb in it for some added speed.
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jimensminger

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2004, 12:57:55 PM »
JohnP,...my bad, you're right I was refering to the "average" higher average bowler that would benefit. Sorry. Most bowlers want a fit that is comfortable,..let's them get out of the ball with ease,..and not hurt their hand. Usually that means a ball that the thumb
 hole is a little too big, with too much bevel, and a span that's a pinch too short. And they like the lifts good and tight for that good lift...Each bowler is different in their likes and dislikes,..and yours is a tough job trying to put their hand in a bowling ball so that it will strike, feel good, fit all the time, and be the least of the worries,....good luck.
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onlybowling

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2004, 10:28:58 PM »
Lucky and T-God thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience!

Please keep this discussion going.
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JohnP

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2004, 11:54:52 AM »
PhireX -- The device your driller used is a Bill Taylor fitting device.  The most recent ones do give an angle to use for oval thumb holes, but I don't think they give any information on the thumb hinge angle for pitch determination.  --  JohnP

LuckyLefty

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2004, 02:48:43 PM »
That is actually a sexometer that measures your horniness quotion!

REgards,

Luckylefty
I stuck my thumb in there and they said something about angular rotation!
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

khamûl

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2004, 12:35:24 AM »
John,

The BT fitter uses a measurement involving the lines in the cylinder to determine lateral pitch.  They also use the lines in the "bt2 oval fitter" to check oval angle in the thumb.
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JohnP

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2004, 11:59:09 AM »
Khamul --  

quote:
The BT fitter uses a measurement involving the lines in the cylinder to determine lateral pitch.


I didn't know that, thanks.  --  JohnP

jimensminger

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2004, 12:43:50 PM »
With all this pitch this and that,..and lateralroski, what happens when the person you are drilling the ball for throws a back up ball...and can't get her thumb out of the ball with the pitch that you measured her for...?
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Doug Sterner

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2004, 02:37:18 PM »
I have not read every post here but I think that Mo Pinel has a new system out for measuring pitches and such. It involves a series of tubes but that is al lI know.

Perhaps someone else here has used it and can elaborate?
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T-GOD

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Re: The difficult coke bottle test!
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2004, 03:00:31 PM »
Jim, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Pitches and span are not only designed for comfort, they're designed to aid in releasing the ball.

So, you have to throw the ball the way the span and pitches are designed. And/or, design the pitches the way you want to throw the ball. =:^D

Edited on 10/19/2004 2:52 PM