BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: TDC57 on December 18, 2015, 02:55:35 PM
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I am going to the Vise-IT system in my four main bowling balls. As I look forward to getting the work done, I've been thinking about my thumb pitches. I'm a lefty with spans of 4 3/4 on my ring finger and 4 5/8 on the middle finger. I currently have 1/4 reverse and 0 lateral. I know everyone has their own feelings on forward or reverse pitch. I used a ball the other day that had a span far shorter than mine and had pitches that were 1/8 reverse and 1/8 right. I had no problems throwing that ball. It made me start to wonder if I should make some changes in my stuff. Is going to 1/8 reverse in my ball which has a considerably longer span than the ball I tried the other day, a safe amount for my span and what would I expect if I went to side pitch other than zero? I would appreciate any advice!!
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If you want to try checking your lateral thumb pitch you might give the coke can overlay a try, which can be found here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/downloads/04 BowlingChat.net • Wiki • coke_can_overlay_for _thumb_pitch.pdf (http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/downloads/04 BowlingChat.net • Wiki • coke_can_overlay_for _thumb_pitch.pdf)
or here:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:Coke_can_overlay_for_thumb_pitch.pdf (http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:Coke_can_overlay_for_thumb_pitch.pdf)
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs5.postimg.org%2Frdw2p83nr%2Fcanonly01sample.jpg&hash=d02cb9f024ef8d1d42a0357f3e19715355531872)
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I printed out the overlay and and have found my lateral pitch at 1/8. Now to decide what I should have for forward or reverse?
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I had a similar question a few weeks back. Someone responded with a link to an article (I'll try to find it). The guidance was to make sure spans were in the safe zone and your thumb hole was snug. Then put your hand in the ball, and let it hang down at your side. With proper pitch, you should have no (or minimal) pressure with your thumb to keep the ball on your hand. The idea is that statically, it should stay on to your thumb with minimal effort, but when you swing the extra forcewill allow it to clear your thumb. This way you can use minimal grip pressure. Guidance was to make small adjustments in pitch until you find what works.
I drilled up a ball and went from 1/16th reverse to 1/16th forward pitch. It feels really comfortable and I have been throwing it better than I can remember.
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http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/btm05_files/btm5.htm
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For those spans and a "typical" hand I'd start with 5/16 reverse. But all hands are different, that's why I seldom respond to requests for thumb pitch suggestions. -- JohnP
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I just shortened my span by an 1/8 and removed the left 1/8 lateral from my thumb so I no have ZERO lateral. I also have ZERO forward/reverse. Very comfortable and sometimes I think I need more forward in the ball as I do exit early sometimes just enough that I know I missed it.
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I wasn't going to comment, but being almost at the end of changing everything you're doing right now, and for the same reason (to get setup before I go back to using the IT), I should pass along what I've learned. I'm also a lefty, and started with the same specs as you on most of my equipment, except I had 1/8 left lateral. I'm down now to 4-3/8 and 4-1/4, and have gone from a max reverse of 1/4 to zero forward now and zero lateral. The ball feels MUCH better in my hand, but I'm throwing it lousy. I've also developed a really bad callous and split skin on the inside of my thumb. I actually printed this PDF tonight and it pointed straight to 1/8 rt lateral (remember, I've been 1/8 left with no problems, and now zero with a callous). 2 minutes ago, I picked up the can again and now it's pointing straight to zero... Sigh. It's not the same in repeated testing, and it's still not where I was when I know I had no split skin for years...
There are a few things to pass along....
1. The can is a guide, not confirmed, and don't be surprised if you change lateral and get a callous, like I have. In that respect, I've progressed backwards, no doubt about it.
2. In my case, I've dropped 1/4 on span, and it's too much.
3. Here's the strangest one... I started with 61/64 thumb. Now I'm using 15/16 and it's too large. I don't know what others will say, but I'm convinced that I was bending the thumb, therefore needing more room in the thumb hole. As I fix span and pitch, at least for me, I have to change thumb size.
Bottom line, I've screwed around too much, but I learned a lot, and now need to drill a few more slugs to test final changes, because I'm a bit worse off than when I started. I can't believe how much more comfortable the ball feels though, and I'm confident I'll be happy with the results in the end. Be ready for some frustration and learn when to stop screwing around with it.... That's what I failed to do.
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Find something you can get out of that doesn't tear up your hand. Don't make it difficult. Nobody has ever become the second coming of Walter Ray by changing their thumb pitch an eighth of an inch.
As for the can, it's a starting point. If you're already an established bowler real world use applies more than the can.
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Next maybe you can do surgery on yourself as well...
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Rico, I thought you were just a bad memory by now... Rats. I enjoyed the learning experience, learned a lot. Here's the secret though. The way you learn that an 1/8th doesn't matter is to try moving it an 1/8th... Go figure... Actually doing something, trying it to learn... Amazing.
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Asking technical questions on a social media forum is like doing surgery on yourself...go see a qualified pro shop operator...this is how bad grips occur...you ask enough opinions and you'll get them...no one had any idea on what his proper span should be nor accompanying gripping angles...
Lefty50 you're an idiot and I truly give two s**ts of your feelings or opinions...I am glad I annoy you...
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You have to remember that there are more bad drillers out there than most people realize. Otherwise, why so many bad fits on bowlers? I can testify that I have seen over a dozen different drillers and only 3 of them were any good. That means in my experience, 75% of the drillers I had were bad. You would be surprised how many bowlers around here have balls that are not drilled correctly.
I know a bowler who had balls drilled that were up to 1/2 inch too long and that was done by at least five different drillers who all measured him incorrectly. It wasn't until his last driller watched him bowl and asked him why he wasn't putting his thumb all the way into the ball that they found out his spans were way too long.
So finding a good driller is not as easy as just walking into your local proshop for some of us. And, for most bowlers, we tend to believe the guy drilling the ball who measures us (it is called a proshop, so he has to be a professional, right?) and says that is the correct fit for us, until we gain enough experience or read posts on the internet to learn that maybe, just maybe, our fit is not correct.
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I won't disagree with there is a plethora of unqualified ball drillers but by your logic bowlers should request advise from bowlers, that may or may not understand what's right or wrong for their games, transpire this info and then take back to their unqualified ball driller in hopes they can and will translate said info...if they didn't get it right the first time chances are they won't any other time thus you're also assuming they will do it in the first place or not have a bad disposition abt it...too many variables
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You can get a good look at a T-Bone steak by sticking your head up a bull's ass, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's word for it? Could just take it to someone who knows what they're doing and avoid all the trial and error . .
Rico, I thought you were just a bad memory by now... Rats. I enjoyed the learning experience, learned a lot. Here's the secret though. The way you learn that an 1/8th doesn't matter is to try moving it an 1/8th... Go figure... Actually doing something, trying it to learn... Amazing.
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I think that sites like this are good for sharing information like which local proshops are recommended, what the factory surface grits are for different balls, etc. I don't think it is a coincidence that with the advent of the internet, more bowlers are better educated about the game than in the past. I think most bowlers realize that there is going to be several different opinions/answers for their questions and that they have to evaluate and choose the answers that best fit their situation. Most of the bowlers on this forum are probably above the USBC median average of 167 and probably have some experience to help them make an evaluation.
I agree though that bowlers should see a qualified proshop for help with their fit and qualified coaching for help with their game. With coaching, there is a system in place for teaching and evaluating the knowledge level of coaches, but what of the ball drillers? How does the average bowler know if their local proshop is really qualified? Someone who learned to drill 30 years ago may not have kept his knowledge level up to the recent changes in the sport. Sharing info on which proshops in each area are recommended is one small step that is provided by sites like this.
I think the next step in this sport is for the bad ball drillers to be weeded out or re-educated in the latest tech but that is going to have to come from the industry itself.
It won't be done by this site.
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You can lead a horse to water but you cannot assume they are thirsty nor can you make them thirsty...
Luke there are way smarter individuals on here than you or I and strangely enough none of them do this for a living...
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Where oh where is that like button . .
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot assume they are thirsty nor can you make them thirsty...
Luke there are way smarter individuals on here than you or I and strangely enough none of them do this for a living...
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Thanks to all who commented on my post. I'm sorry some found it a way to take shots at each other. I'm going to stick to the original reason for going to the Vise-IT system. That being to have one slug a smaller size when cold WI weather or lack of fluids intake leave me with a smaller than usual thumb and one my like my current size for when the weather is warm or I have a larger thumb. As far as pitches, after reading all the input, I'm going to stick with my current pitches. Thanks again for the comments!
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Quote from JustRico on 12/19/15. "Lefty50 you're an idiot and I truly give two s**ts of your feelings or opinions...I am glad I annoy you...."
Nice talk (not) especially this time of year when we should be filled with joy and happiness.
Is this kind of talk what this site has become? I hope not!
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Quote from JustRico on 12/19/15. "Lefty50 you're an idiot and I truly give two s**ts of your feelings or opinions...I am glad I annoy you...."
Nice talk (not) especially this time of year when we should be filled with joy and happiness.
Is this kind of talk what this site has become? I hope not!
so are we no supposed to be filled with Joy and Happiness outside of December?
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So me making a disparaging remark is worse than someone giving invalidated advise? Sorry it's hard to look away when bad advise is given whether the person 'likes' me or otherwise nor the time of the year...
I guess since its Xmas lets all give bad advise and just smile & say 'merry Xmas!'
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So me making a disparaging remark is worse than someone giving invalidated advise? Sorry it's hard to look away when bad advise is given whether the person 'likes' me or otherwise nor the time of the year...
I guess since its Xmas lets all give bad advise and just smile & say 'merry Xmas!'
spot on
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I've been bowling since about 1960 and a lot of things have changed in that time. A lot of advise that was given over the years is now considered 'wrong' and some of the 'wrong' things then are now considered to be 'correct', so I don't see how any of us can criticize each others advise.
When I started bowling, it was wrong of me to throw a semi-roller as the correct way was to throw a full-roller, or so I was told. Beginning bowlers had to go through a process of grips - start with a conventional and when you got the basics down, you could move up to a semi-fingertip and if you got your average up to a certain level, you could then move on to the full-stretched-fingertip grip with excessive reverse. That was the 'expert' advise back then and it has changed just a wee bit nowadays. How many drillers are encouraging the use of semi-fingertip grips these days or stretched fingertips?
I was always concerned about my track because I could never get that tight ring that you were supposed to get. I had a lot of flare in some of my bowling balls (not all for some strange reason) and the advanced bowlers kept telling me that that was wrong, that there should be no separation in the flare rings so I got rid of some bowling balls because I couldn't keep the rings tight on those.
Youth bowlers were not supposed to keep throwing with both hands after a certain age or strength limit was reached. You were supposed to learn how to release the ball with only one arm/hand. Plenty of young bowlers were advised not to continue to bowl with that method as it was not the correct way to bowl.
This game keeps evolving and that means that the advise will continue to evolve to keep up with the game. As I said, I don't know how we can know what is really right or wrong for each other in that case. Thirty years from now a lot of what we consider correct will no longer be thought of that way. What will always be wrong will be to use personal attacks against each other, to be internet bullies or trolls. That, I hope, will not change.
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Individual opinion vs actual advise can be as descructive as anything...basing fact off of opinion on a social media page is not even remotely the same
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Just Rico & tkkshop
You guys have been drinking your own Kool Aid for to long. Stop acting like D.T. Jr's to other people because you don't like or agree with their post.
Make your counter-point, but don't call people names and don't pride yourself in purposely annoying others and enjoying it. It's not right this time of year or anytime of the year.
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Dude if you knew what you were talking about it it may be relevant but since this is social media and too much hyperbole is prevalent it's comical that you've joined into this 'discussion' while the original instigator has vanished....
The attack started with 'your' friend, I merely responded...
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Just Rico & tkkshop
You guys have been drinking your own Kool Aid for to long. Stop acting like D.T. Jr's to other people because you don't like or agree with their post.
Make your counter-point, but don't call people names and don't pride yourself in purposely annoying others and enjoying it. It's not right this time of year or anytime of the year.
who did I attack?
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This is what this site has become...you have noncredible individuals giving misinformation and if anyone of knowledge questions it, they attack and attempt to discredit...this is why so many have left and all that's here is mass amounts of misinformation....plain & simple
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Unfortunately, Rico's last post is spot on.
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What does all this chatter and +1/spot on.... have to do with the following:
Just Rico to Lefty50....."Lefty50 you're an idiot and I truly give two s**ts of your feelings or opinions...I am glad I annoy you..."
The point being made is why is it so hard to see that the author of this statement is just plain wrong in making it. A counter-point to Lucky50 would have been appropriate , but without the personal insult.
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It has to do with chatter from other topics/threads between the 2.
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Kinda weird he disappears and you take up the cause
And oh merry Christmas to all
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What does all this chatter and +1/spot on.... have to do with the following:
Just Rico to Lefty50....."Lefty50 you're an idiot and I truly give two s**ts of your feelings or opinions...I am glad I annoy you..."
The point being made is why is it so hard to see that the author of this statement is just plain wrong in making it. A counter-point to Lucky50 would have been appropriate , but without the personal insult.
I didn't "spot on" that quote. Try again.
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Someone has to stand up to the cyber bullies!
Oh Yeah, Happy Holidays to all and to all a good night.
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How bout cyber stupid? Who stands up to that?
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Btw this offended me
lefty50
Hero Member
*****
#10 on: December 19, 2015, 10:05:19 AM »
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Rico, I thought you were just a bad memory by now... Rats.
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Counter points don't work. The ignorant will continue to be ignorant and will spew their misinformation everywhere, while those that actually know what they're talking about will be ganged up on and shut down. Funny how everyone's a mud slinger until they get a bit thrown back at them and then all the sudden they're above it. Everyone just seems to really want to be misinformed and continue to experience the issues they are.
50 years ago a lot of things were taught wrong, but as it turns out, all it takes is a bit of common sense to figure out that if something hurts and isn't functional, that it doesn't work. Now you simply do what the individual hand tells you to do. There's no textbook, there's no cookie cutter. What's right for one person may be wrong for another, all boils down to a case by case basis. There are certain similarities and commonalities, but as far as hard and fast universal rules, nope. Plus I'd also have to say it's hard to improve on or divert from perfect comfort and functionality.
Cyber bullies huh? Somebody trying to save you from misinformation and problems, boy that sure sounds like a bully to me.
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The issue is when someone has something that worked once..ONCE...they believe to be gospel and dispel any other info as blasphemy...
If you do not say or agree with many (un)knowledgeable boisterous individuals, especially on social media you become a pariah...
There are too many in all facets of life that function this way...if it dispels their believes no matter how much they can be proven wrong or false, they will scream 'you are wrong!' and call you a bully...it's sad, especially in this situation the ones that can help and make a better place are cast aside...not cool or sexy enough
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I think the note that Rico will say and that EVERYONE needs to understand is that everyone is different and what works for YOU may be completely wrong for me or anyone else. A span/pitch is a very personal thing. Even identical twins could have different flexibility in joints and would necessitate different pitches. But how would Rico or anyone else know that unless you were able to see that IN PERSON?
Rico has seen way more than anyone else on here will ever forget when fitting someone and laying out balls. The TRUTH is some of you know so little that it hurts to realize that.
People like Lefty50 has been a bully for years. Been around for a decade or more and he was just as bad back then.
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Ding ding ding, we have a winner
I think the note that Rico will say and that EVERYONE needs to understand is that everyone is different and what works for YOU may be completely wrong for me or anyone else. A span/pitch is a very personal thing. Even identical twins could have different flexibility in joints and would necessitate different pitches. But how would Rico or anyone else know that unless you were able to see that IN PERSON?
Rico has seen way more than anyone else on here will ever forget when fitting someone and laying out balls. The TRUTH is some of you know so little that it hurts to realize that.
People like Lefty50 has been a bully for years. Been around for a decade or more and he was just as bad back then.