Author Topic: thumb pitch and layout suggestions (Read 13457 times)

skidhookgutter · « **on:** April 13, 2010, 04:02:14 PM »

I read not to long ago on this board of a drilling of the thumb but turning the ball in the jig before drilling the hole. I cant seem to find the posts. My fingers and wrists are not very limber and Im really wondering what I can do to feel more comfortable cocking my wrist. The league I joined for fun, everyone bowls with the same brand and model ball. I'm classic stroker but working hard to re-program my hand/wrist to gain some revs. I have a pap of 5 over and up 1/2. The last two balls I had were drilled 3 3/8 x 3 3/8. Obviously inside and swing is not my A game! At the same time Ive had skid flip and that seems to be pretty speed and condition specific. I would like to have the ball store some energy but have a strong continuous arc to the pocket. Looking for drilling suggestions. THS, stroker with about 16mph, They tell me they chose the Brunswick copperhead. Thanks in advance and sorry for L O N G post.

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 15, 2010, 04:24:31 PM »

quote:
I would be interested to know the new pitches based on the T grip for your thumb hole that was drilled with the 45* shift, and what the pitch settings for the 45* shift were. -- JohnP

I said that I wasn't going to post on this topic anymore, but will go ahead and answer John's question here...

John, my thumb is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral. It is drilled at 45* and when measured at 45*, it is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral.....when it is measured as if it was drilled the old T-Grip way, it is 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral. (I am RH)
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

bowler001 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 15, 2010, 04:49:29 PM »

So if I drill a thumbhole(standard t-grip way) at 1/8 rev and 1/8 left lateral, what will the 45* pitch measurement be?

Edited on 4/15/2010 4:49 PM

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 15, 2010, 10:01:13 PM »

quote:
So if I drill a thumbhole(standard t-grip way) at 1/8 rev and 1/8 left lateral, what will the 45* pitch measurement be?

I have no idea as I never tried it and then measured to see what the 45* pitch would be, but I would "almost" be willing to bet it would be closer to 0 than it would be to 3/16. The next time I am in my pro shop, I will ask my driller if he has an old "throw away" ball and if so, I will ask him if he would mind drilling the 1/8 x 1/8 on a T-Grip and them measure it at 45* and see what it is.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

newbie101 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 15, 2010, 10:33:09 PM »

Thanks Brickguy221 for the instruction you emailed to...still haven't got the time to visit my driller.

Can you please post a picture of one your ball drilled 45 degrees?

Thanks.

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #20 on:** April 15, 2010, 11:09:47 PM »

There are several good points in this thread that need to be pointed out....

JohnP is 100% correct in his analysis of this system....

1. All that this 45* drilling thing does is change the pitches in the thumbhole.

2. Jim says that you do not change the pitches, just the direction of the pitches. Well I guess it all depends on what you are using as your reference point....the standard reference line used for checking pitches is the line drawn from between the fingers down thru the center of the thumbhole. If you set the ball in the jig using this line as a reference and your pitches are 1/4 right and 1/4 reverse, then you rotate the ball 45* and drill the thumbhole, the resulting pitches will not be 1/4 and 1/4 IF MEASURED FROM THAT ORIGINAL REFERENCE LINE.

3. In order to replicate these thumb pitches all you need to do is use a pitch gauge and remeasure the thumb pitches from the original reference line. Once this is done and the new pitches are known you can drill any new ball with a T-grip style layout and it will be the same.

4.This layout system is very similar to the CLT grip. The main difference is that in the CLT system it uses a bowler-specific angle adjustment whereas this 45* system uses a generic 45* adjustment.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 15, 2010, 11:41:25 PM »

quote:
Thanks Brickguy221 for the instruction you emailed to...still haven''t got the time to visit my driller.

Can you please post a picture of one your ball drilled 45 degrees?

Thanks.

Newbie, the drawings I sent you on how to drill this thumb hole will show you more than a picture of the ball already drilled. A picture of a ball already drilled with the 45* thumb will look like any drilled ball. The difference is the fit when a person puts their hadn into the ball.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Edited on 4/15/2010 11:55 PM

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 16, 2010, 10:33:38 AM »

quote:
If you set the ball in the jig using this line as a reference and your pitches are 1/4 right and 1/4 reverse, then you rotate the ball 45* and drill the thumbhole, the resulting pitches will not be 1/4 and 1/4 IF MEASURED FROM THAT ORIGINAL REFERENCE LINE.

Doug, I already pointed this out in my posts. Note where I said....John, my thumb is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral. It is drilled at 45* and when measured at 45*, it is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral.....when it is measured as if it was drilled the old T-Grip way, it is 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral. (I am RH)

quote:
3. In order to replicate these thumb pitches all you need to do is use a pitch gauge and remeasure the thumb pitches from the original reference line. Once this is done and the new pitches are known you can drill any new ball with a T-grip style layout and it will be the same.

It will be somewhat in that area, but will not be the exact same as it is when turning the ball in the jig.

quote:
4.This layout system is very similar to the CLT grip. The main difference is that in the CLT system it uses a bowler-specific angle adjustment whereas this 45* system uses a generic 45* adjustment.

mmmmm, some what similar, yet different. I've tried the CLT and hated it as the fit was different, it didn't work, and didn't offer the same benefits I get from the 45* drilling, but love this 45* drilling. With the 45* drilling I can use a tighter thumb hole, it increases revs which I badly needed, no longer hang up in the ball, easier to release ball, more palm of hand on ball, hand not crimped/twisted like it is on the 90* T-Grip drilling and etc. If you will hold your hand palm side up, you will see that the back of your thumb doesn't point straight up, it points 45* to the side, thus the need for the thumb pitch to run in that direction.

Now with all that has been said by myself and others here, if some people want to try drilling this 45* thumb different than others are drilling it with success, that is up to you. Maybe you will be happy with the results you get from doing it ddifferent and maybe you won't, I don't know, but I assure you that you will come closer to being happy with it if drilled the standard way.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

JohnP · « **Reply #23 on:** April 16, 2010, 10:45:25 AM »

Brick -- Thanks for posting your pitches. When I get the time I'm going to plug an old ball and do the 45* shift on the thumb. I'll report back on the results. -- JohnP

bowler001 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 16, 2010, 10:52:36 AM »

quote:
There are several good points in this thread that need to be pointed out....

JohnP is 100% correct in his analysis of this system....

1. All that this 45* drilling thing does is change the pitches in the thumbhole.

2. Jim says that you do not change the pitches, just the direction of the pitches. Well I guess it all depends on what you are using as your reference point....the standard reference line used for checking pitches is the line drawn from between the fingers down thru the center of the thumbhole. If you set the ball in the jig using this line as a reference and your pitches are 1/4 right and 1/4 reverse, then you rotate the ball 45* and drill the thumbhole, the resulting pitches will not be 1/4 and 1/4 IF MEASURED FROM THAT ORIGINAL REFERENCE LINE.

3. In order to replicate these thumb pitches all you need to do is use a pitch gauge and remeasure the thumb pitches from the original reference line. Once this is done and the new pitches are known you can drill any new ball with a T-grip style layout and it will be the same.

4.This layout system is very similar to the CLT grip. The main difference is that in the CLT system it uses a bowler-specific angle adjustment whereas this 45* system uses a generic 45* adjustment.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug''s Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

Thank you for attempting to get him to understand, but I think at this point, it''s a lost cause.

He(brick) just doesn''t get it. It WILL be exactly the same. It''s impossible for it to be different. If my pitch gauge reads 0.136 rev and 0.136 left lateral (on the standard t-grip reference line), and I drill a new ball at 0.136 rev and 0.136 left lateral(on the standard t-grip line), it WILL BE EXACTLY THE SAME. NO matter where I measure. I can measure that at 45* on both balls and IT WILL BE EXACTLY THE SAME.

I used "0.136" as an example, not in reference to anything else. Basically, saying if "Joe Customer" came to and failed to mention his thumb was drilled using the 45* method, and I drilled it using the t-grip method, the pitches can be replicated, no matter how oddball they may be.

I think the best bet is just gonna be showing it, so I''ll be waiting for John''s input from now on.

Edited on 4/16/2010 11:01 AM

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 16, 2010, 11:36:51 AM »

quote:
Thank you for attempting to get him to understand, but I think at this point, it''''s a lost cause.

Oh I get it bowler001, you don''t. I am not going to continue to debate with you on something that you are only throwing out opinions and theory on and of which you haven''t even tried or done.

My thumb is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral. It is drilled at 45* and when measured at 45*, it is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral.....when it is measured as if it was drilled the old T-Grip way, it is 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral. (I am RH)

I will see if my driller has a throwaway ball and if so, I will ask him to drill a 1/8 reverse and 1/8 out lateral on a T-Grip line and then measure it at 45* to see if it measures 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral and post my findings in this forum. If it mesures 3/16 and 0 lateral at 45*, I will admit I was wrong.... If I am not wrong, I expect you to do likewise....OK?
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Edited on 4/16/2010 11:38 AM

leftyinsnellville · « **Reply #26 on:** April 16, 2010, 12:05:45 PM »

Hold up the palm of your hand in front of your face with your thumb pointing right at you. Think of the tip of your middle finger as 12:00 and the center of your wrist where it connects to your hand as 6:00. Looking at your thumb you'll notice the back of your thumb does not point towards 6:00, it points towards 4:30 (or 7:30 for lefties), that is the reason for turning the ball 45 degrees before drilling, so the lateral pitch will "tilt" the hole in the same direction your thumb goes. You might also notice while looking straight down your thumb that your thumb is wider (side to side) than it is thick (back to front), thus the reason for the oval drilling for a better fit.

So in addition to turning my ball 45 degrees before drilling the thumbhole, I also use a bit that is two sizes smaller than I'd normally use for my thumbhole. After the thumbhole is drilled using proper pitches, I'll adjust the ball over to one side about 1/8 inch and run the bit down again taking out a bit of the side of the hole I just drilled. Then I'll adjust it the other way about 1/4 inch and run the bit down the hole again taking out a bit of the other side. This gives me a good start on an oval thumbhole. I just smooth out the ridges with hand tools, and then bevel and smooth the thumbhole with my sander.

This really creates a great fitting thumbhole. BTW - I use 1/4 lateral and 3/8 reverse pitches.

--------------------
I wanna be a house hack when I grow up.

http://averagebowlersballreviews.com/

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 16, 2010, 04:32:05 PM »

quote:
Hold up the palm of your hand in front of your face with your thumb pointing right at you. Think of the tip of your middle finger as 12:00 and the center of your wrist where it connects to your hand as 6:00. Looking at your thumb you''ll notice the back of your thumb does not point towards 6:00, it points towards 4:30 (or 7:30 for lefties), that is the reason for turning the ball 45 degrees before drilling, so the lateral pitch will "tilt" the hole in the same direction your thumb goes. You might also notice while looking straight down your thumb that your thumb is wider (side to side) than it is thick (back to front), thus the reason for the oval drilling for a better fit.

So in addition to turning my ball 45 degrees before drilling the thumbhole, I also use a bit that is two sizes smaller than I''d normally use for my thumbhole. After the thumbhole is drilled using proper pitches, I''ll adjust the ball over to one side about 1/8 inch and run the bit down again taking out a bit of the side of the hole I just drilled. Then I''ll adjust it the other way about 1/4 inch and run the bit down the hole again taking out a bit of the other side. This gives me a good start on an oval thumbhole. I just smooth out the ridges with hand tools, and then bevel and smooth the thumbhole with my sander.

This really creates a great fitting thumbhole. BTW - I use 1/4 lateral and 3/8 reverse pitches.

Thanks Lefty.....You nailed it perfectly as well as explaining it perfectly. I tried but am not the best when it comes to explaining things for others to understand what I am trying to say. Hopefully it is not a lost cause for bowler001 and that he can now get/understand as well as the reason of the purpose of the drilling better. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things, yet everyone still needs to do things the way they feel comfortable with as well as what works best for them. Thus the reason I do it the way I do which is also the way I was taught.

With John P having the type drill he has, I can understand him going about it in a different direction and I am confident that it will work well for him.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Edited on 4/16/2010 4:36 PM

bowler001 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 16, 2010, 08:27:45 PM »

Well, I just replicated your 45* pitch EXACTLY drilling it on the t-grip lines at 1/8 rev, 1/8 left lateral. Would you like some pics of the pitch gauge in the ball?

I'm pretty sure that settles the debate. And so you know, it's not trying to disprove the theory...it does make sense, and all John and I were saying is that it is easily replicated using the t grip method once you've done ONE ball. And I understand your thinking, but if a hole's pitch matches at any angle from ball to ball, you can guarantee it will match any other angle you measure it. So if it measures 1/8rev and 1/8left lateral on both balls (t grip), they will always match no matter what "reference line" you use to determine pitch(whether it be 30*, 45*, or 60*). You could even measure it at 180 degrees, they would still match. Matter of fact it would read 1/8 fwd and 1/8 rt lateral..on both balls.

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 16, 2010, 09:37:03 PM »

quote:
Well, I just replicated your 45* pitch EXACTLY drilling it on the t-grip lines at 1/8 rev, 1/8 left lateral. Would you like some pics of the pitch gauge in the ball?

I'm pretty sure that settles the debate. And so you know, it's not trying to disprove the theory...it does make sense, and all John and I were saying is that it is easily replicated using the t grip method once you've done ONE ball. And I understand your thinking, but if a hole's pitch matches at any angle from ball to ball, you can guarantee it will match any other angle you measure it. So if it measures 1/8rev and 1/8left lateral on both balls (t grip), they will always match no matter what "reference line" you use to determine pitch(whether it be 30*, 45*, or 60*). You could even measure it at 180 degrees, they would still match. Matter of fact it would read 1/8 fwd and 1/8 rt lateral..on both balls.

bowler001, in going back and reading your posts again, I have come to the conclusion that you and I are on the same page but not understanding each other. We seem to both be approaching this pitch vs 45* angle from different directions but arriving at the same place with the same results. For example, I read your one post of your 0.136 example to mean that you could get the same pitch of 0.136 reverse and left lateral off the T-Grip and that the 45* angle would also measure 0.136. This is what I was disputing is that the 45* angle wouldn't measure the same 0.136 as the reverse & left lateral pitches on the T-Grip measured. The reverse on the 45* angle would be more than 0.136 in this case. In fact the reverse on the 45 degree angle in this case would be approx. 0.198. (0.1875 is 3/16, so your example would measure 3/16+ on the 45* angle)

Now if you just now drilled the 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral on a T-Grip, you should have come up with 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral on the 45 degree angle....did you get that measurement?....I take it you must have as you said I just replicated your 45* pitch EXACTLY and that would be 3/16 reverse and 0 left lateral.

If that is what you came up with, then the case is closed and we are all now in agreement. I too checked it out this evening. I remembered that I had an old ball in the closet with 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral. I dug it out of the closet, took it to the pro shop and it measured 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral on the 45* angle. (same as the one I mentioned yesterday that was drilled 3/16 & 0).....and one more here....I have a ball in my locker that is drilled 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral on the 45* angle. I also checked it on the T-Grip and it measured..... 0 Reverse and 3/16 left lateral which is what it should have measured because if you turned these nos 1/8 turn towards the thumb, you would have 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral.

Now assuming we are all on the same page with this so far, I want to remind you that in order to come up with the correct T-Grip pitches to equal X* pitches at 45*, you need to take your normal every day pitches you use on the T-Grip and drill the first ball at 45*. If the fit is ok as mine was with the 3/16 & 0, then remeasure your 45* drilled pitch on the T-Grip method and you should now have new T-Grip pitches and if drilled like that from then on, it should match the 45* pitch that you drilled on your first 45* drilled ball.....Hopefully I didn't lose you here in trying to say/explain what I mean.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #30 on:** April 16, 2010, 10:51:22 PM »

I just sat down and drew out some stuff on paper and what I have found is that this concept would produce some VERY extreme pitches in my ball.

My normal thumb pitches are 3/16 forward and 3/16 left.

Now if I were to rotate the ball 45* and drill the 3/16 left it would add more forward and decrease left. The 3/16 forward when rotated would decrease forward and left.

This is interesting.....maybe I need to try it on one of my junk balls I have laying in the shop.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

Author Topic: thumb pitch and layout suggestions (Read 13457 times)

skidhookgutter

thumb pitch and layout suggestions

Brickguy221

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

bowler001

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

Brickguy221

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

newbie101

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

Doug Sterner

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

Brickguy221

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

Brickguy221

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

JohnP

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

bowler001

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

Brickguy221

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

leftyinsnellville

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

Brickguy221

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

bowler001

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

Brickguy221

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions

Doug Sterner

Re: thumb pitch and layout suggestions