Post by: skidhookgutter on April 13, 2010, 04:02:14 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 14, 2010, 12:53:54 AM
http://www.bowlingballexchange.com/showthread.php?t=33532
I was the first one on the BBE site to switch to this 45* degree style drilling and love it and have never considered to going back to the T-Grip style drilling. A huge number of others followed after they saw my success and agreed that it was comfortable, easier release, more revs, and etc.
In brief, the driller simply sets the pitches on the drill like he was going to drill a T-Grip style thumb hole....He then puts the ball in the jig like he normally does and then turns the fingers 45* to the left for right handers and drills the thumb hole. (turns fingers 45* to the right for left handers)
Not sure if this is what you are looking for or not. If you have any questions about it, let me know.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: dballz on April 14, 2010, 09:09:54 AM
Post by: JohnP on April 14, 2010, 11:09:05 AM
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 14, 2010, 12:44:28 PM
quote:
Brickguy, i have never heard of that technique before. do you put the same pitches as you normally would and then turn the ball and drill it? would you put in an oval thumb insert the same way you drilled the hole, or place it like you normally would? thanks!
Yes....You set the drill press for your normal pitches, put ball in jig, then turn 45* and drill thumb. When you check thumb pitches after drilling, you check the pitches on the same 45* angle you drilled it. For example, my thumb pitch is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral. After drilling it, if I check the pitch on the same 45* angle it was drilled, it will be 3/16 reverse. If I check it on the grip line, it won''t be 3/16 reverse and isn''t supposed to be 3/16 reverse on the grip line like it is on a T-Grip drilled thumb hole.
If you hold your hand out with the palm up and thumb up, and keep your thumb up and move your thumb to the left like it would be in the thumb hole of a ball, you will note the back of thumb points 45* to the right, thus the direction of your thumb reverse or forward pitch.
Here is the first original link on BBE on this drilling and how it came about. Because it is so long, I didn''t post it in my first post but am posting it now. If you or anyone else interested in this thumb drilling want to take the time to read the entire article, I think all questions will be answered.
http://www.bowlingballexchange.com/showthread.php?t=32344
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 4/14/2010 12:45 PM
Post by: Stan on April 14, 2010, 02:17:32 PM
Post by: bowler001 on April 14, 2010, 04:09:36 PM
quote:
Whether it works or not, after you do a few balls this way, by measuring the new pitches on the standard T grip alignment it could be duplicated without rotating the ball. -- JohnP
Exactly my thinking.
--------------------
Doug Morton
Xclusive Pro Shop - Anchorage, Alaska
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 14, 2010, 04:32:46 PM
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whether it works or not, after you do a few balls this way, by measuring the new pitches on the standard T grip alignment it could be duplicated without rotating the ball. -- JohnP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly my thinking.
--------------------
Doug Morton
Xclusive Pro Shop - Anchorage, Alaska
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
Not sure that will work.....This move is a 45* move. How are you going to drill a 45* move to the grip line without moving the ball when your jig is limited to a 90* move to the grip line? I'm not a driller but am really familiar with this drilling, thus the reason for my question here.
What is so difficult to simply marking the 45* line and drilling the thumb off that line? With this 45* drilling drilled as it is supposed to be drilled, you drill the thumb first and then measure from the thumb and then mark and drill the fingers off the original grip line and not the 45* line. Some offset the thumb 3/16" to the left (RH bowler...opposite for LH bowler) of the original grip line. I tried the 3/16" offset and didn't like it. Some like it and some don't. You really need to read all of the posts in the second link about this drilling and you should thourghly understand it if you know anything at all about drilling balls.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: JohnP on April 14, 2010, 04:42:04 PM
quote:
Not sure that will work.....This move is a 45* move. How are you going to drill a 45* move to the grip line without moving the ball when your jig is limited to a 90* move to the grip line? I'm not a driller but am really familiar with this drilling, thus the reason for my question here.
Remember, I'm talking about round holes only not ovals. It's a round hole and you haven't changed the spans, so the only thing that has changed is the pitches. You can measure the pitches for the rotated hole on the center line for the standard T grip and simply use those pitches when drilling the hole. It will come out the same as rotating the ball. -- JohnP
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 14, 2010, 05:09:27 PM
quote:
It''s a round hole and you haven''t changed the spans, so the only thing that has changed is the pitches.
John, you haven''t changed the pitches, but you have changed the direction of the pitches.
From what I have read and heard, especially from the 2 people (John from Innovative Products and Pinchezer from the Netherlands) that came up with drilling the thumb at 45*, you can get a bit in the area adjusting your jig, but not the same 45* or feel that is obtained from moving the ball to drill thumb. To me, it seems that it would be simpler to move the ball than messing with the jig trying to duplicate the actual 45*.
May I ask what is so difficult about setting the pitches for a T-Grip drilling and moving the ball to 45* in the jig and drilling the thumb hole? My driller whom has over 20 years of experience does it all of the time when drilling my balls and it is no more time consuming than drilling the old T-Grip way.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 4/14/2010 5:14 PM
Post by: stormed1 on April 14, 2010, 05:34:55 PM
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Post by: bowler001 on April 14, 2010, 05:52:34 PM
And using Jayhawk's(PAI's) digital pitch gauge, I believe it will accurately measure pitches on oval holes.
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 15, 2010, 12:03:18 AM
quote:
So by measuring a 45* thumb's pitches after the fact(whatever they may be), obviously the t grip pitches will be diffent. Now use those t grip pitches to drill the ball the standard t grip way and you arrive at the same results. If my front to back and side to side pitches match from one ball to the next, obviosuly, if I measure pitches at a 45* angle, they will match also.
Good luck with that, but it isn't going to come out the EXACT SAME as a 45* drilled thumb hole as it is supposed to be drilled.
There is a fool proof and simple method to drill this 45* thumb, but some of you seem to want to try to do it a different way for reasons unknown to me. I have been involved in drilling 45* thumbs directly and indirectly since October of last year with others besides myself, so I have said all I am going to say about this drilling. I was only trying to help/advise those really interested in it.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: 67tbird on April 15, 2010, 01:20:18 AM
Post by: JohnP on April 15, 2010, 10:53:42 AM
quote:
John, you haven''t changed the pitches, but you have changed the direction of the pitches.
The combination of lateral and forward/reverse pitches define the angle the hole is drilled at. I never said it was difficult to shift the ball 45* to drill the hole, only that it can be duplicated without the shift when you know the new pitch combination based on the standard T grip. And bowler001 has already adequately addressed that. On a standard upright press the 45* shift is quite easy. I drill on an AMF 3600 horizontal press (sidewinder), and the 45* shift is not as easy, but can still be done. I would be interested to know the new pitches based on the T grip for your thumb hole that was drilled with the 45* shift, and what the pitch settings for the 45* shift were. -- JohnP
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 15, 2010, 04:24:31 PM
quote:
I would be interested to know the new pitches based on the T grip for your thumb hole that was drilled with the 45* shift, and what the pitch settings for the 45* shift were. -- JohnP
I said that I wasn't going to post on this topic anymore, but will go ahead and answer John's question here...
John, my thumb is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral. It is drilled at 45* and when measured at 45*, it is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral.....when it is measured as if it was drilled the old T-Grip way, it is 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral. (I am RH)
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: bowler001 on April 15, 2010, 04:49:29 PM
Edited on 4/15/2010 4:49 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 15, 2010, 10:01:13 PM
quote:
So if I drill a thumbhole(standard t-grip way) at 1/8 rev and 1/8 left lateral, what will the 45* pitch measurement be?
I have no idea as I never tried it and then measured to see what the 45* pitch would be, but I would "almost" be willing to bet it would be closer to 0 than it would be to 3/16. The next time I am in my pro shop, I will ask my driller if he has an old "throw away" ball and if so, I will ask him if he would mind drilling the 1/8 x 1/8 on a T-Grip and them measure it at 45* and see what it is.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: newbie101 on April 15, 2010, 10:33:09 PM
Can you please post a picture of one your ball drilled 45 degrees?
Thanks.
Post by: Doug Sterner on April 15, 2010, 11:09:47 PM
JohnP is 100% correct in his analysis of this system....
1. All that this 45* drilling thing does is change the pitches in the thumbhole.
2. Jim says that you do not change the pitches, just the direction of the pitches. Well I guess it all depends on what you are using as your reference point....the standard reference line used for checking pitches is the line drawn from between the fingers down thru the center of the thumbhole. If you set the ball in the jig using this line as a reference and your pitches are 1/4 right and 1/4 reverse, then you rotate the ball 45* and drill the thumbhole, the resulting pitches will not be 1/4 and 1/4 IF MEASURED FROM THAT ORIGINAL REFERENCE LINE.
3. In order to replicate these thumb pitches all you need to do is use a pitch gauge and remeasure the thumb pitches from the original reference line. Once this is done and the new pitches are known you can drill any new ball with a T-grip style layout and it will be the same.
4.This layout system is very similar to the CLT grip. The main difference is that in the CLT system it uses a bowler-specific angle adjustment whereas this 45* system uses a generic 45* adjustment.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Post by: Brickguy221 on April 15, 2010, 11:41:25 PM
quote:
Thanks Brickguy221 for the instruction you emailed to...still haven''t got the time to visit my driller.
Can you please post a picture of one your ball drilled 45 degrees?
Thanks.
Newbie, the drawings I sent you on how to drill this thumb hole will show you more than a picture of the ball already drilled. A picture of a ball already drilled with the 45* thumb will look like any drilled ball. The difference is the fit when a person puts their hadn into the ball.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 4/15/2010 11:55 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 16, 2010, 10:33:38 AM
quote:
If you set the ball in the jig using this line as a reference and your pitches are 1/4 right and 1/4 reverse, then you rotate the ball 45* and drill the thumbhole, the resulting pitches will not be 1/4 and 1/4 IF MEASURED FROM THAT ORIGINAL REFERENCE LINE.
Doug, I already pointed this out in my posts. Note where I said....John, my thumb is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral. It is drilled at 45* and when measured at 45*, it is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral.....when it is measured as if it was drilled the old T-Grip way, it is 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral. (I am RH)
quote:
3. In order to replicate these thumb pitches all you need to do is use a pitch gauge and remeasure the thumb pitches from the original reference line. Once this is done and the new pitches are known you can drill any new ball with a T-grip style layout and it will be the same.
It will be somewhat in that area, but will not be the exact same as it is when turning the ball in the jig.
quote:
4.This layout system is very similar to the CLT grip. The main difference is that in the CLT system it uses a bowler-specific angle adjustment whereas this 45* system uses a generic 45* adjustment.
mmmmm, some what similar, yet different. I've tried the CLT and hated it as the fit was different, it didn't work, and didn't offer the same benefits I get from the 45* drilling, but love this 45* drilling. With the 45* drilling I can use a tighter thumb hole, it increases revs which I badly needed, no longer hang up in the ball, easier to release ball, more palm of hand on ball, hand not crimped/twisted like it is on the 90* T-Grip drilling and etc. If you will hold your hand palm side up, you will see that the back of your thumb doesn't point straight up, it points 45* to the side, thus the need for the thumb pitch to run in that direction.
Now with all that has been said by myself and others here, if some people want to try drilling this 45* thumb different than others are drilling it with success, that is up to you. Maybe you will be happy with the results you get from doing it ddifferent and maybe you won't, I don't know, but I assure you that you will come closer to being happy with it if drilled the standard way.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: JohnP on April 16, 2010, 10:45:25 AM
Post by: bowler001 on April 16, 2010, 10:52:36 AM
quote:
There are several good points in this thread that need to be pointed out....
JohnP is 100% correct in his analysis of this system....
1. All that this 45* drilling thing does is change the pitches in the thumbhole.
2. Jim says that you do not change the pitches, just the direction of the pitches. Well I guess it all depends on what you are using as your reference point....the standard reference line used for checking pitches is the line drawn from between the fingers down thru the center of the thumbhole. If you set the ball in the jig using this line as a reference and your pitches are 1/4 right and 1/4 reverse, then you rotate the ball 45* and drill the thumbhole, the resulting pitches will not be 1/4 and 1/4 IF MEASURED FROM THAT ORIGINAL REFERENCE LINE.
3. In order to replicate these thumb pitches all you need to do is use a pitch gauge and remeasure the thumb pitches from the original reference line. Once this is done and the new pitches are known you can drill any new ball with a T-grip style layout and it will be the same.
4.This layout system is very similar to the CLT grip. The main difference is that in the CLT system it uses a bowler-specific angle adjustment whereas this 45* system uses a generic 45* adjustment.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug''s Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Thank you for attempting to get him to understand, but I think at this point, it''s a lost cause.
He(brick) just doesn''t get it. It WILL be exactly the same. It''s impossible for it to be different. If my pitch gauge reads 0.136 rev and 0.136 left lateral (on the standard t-grip reference line), and I drill a new ball at 0.136 rev and 0.136 left lateral(on the standard t-grip line), it WILL BE EXACTLY THE SAME. NO matter where I measure. I can measure that at 45* on both balls and IT WILL BE EXACTLY THE SAME.
I used "0.136" as an example, not in reference to anything else. Basically, saying if "Joe Customer" came to and failed to mention his thumb was drilled using the 45* method, and I drilled it using the t-grip method, the pitches can be replicated, no matter how oddball they may be.
I think the best bet is just gonna be showing it, so I''ll be waiting for John''s input from now on.
Edited on 4/16/2010 11:01 AM
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 16, 2010, 11:36:51 AM
quote:
Thank you for attempting to get him to understand, but I think at this point, it''''s a lost cause.
Oh I get it bowler001, you don''t. I am not going to continue to debate with you on something that you are only throwing out opinions and theory on and of which you haven''t even tried or done.
My thumb is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral. It is drilled at 45* and when measured at 45*, it is 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral.....when it is measured as if it was drilled the old T-Grip way, it is 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral. (I am RH)
I will see if my driller has a throwaway ball and if so, I will ask him to drill a 1/8 reverse and 1/8 out lateral on a T-Grip line and then measure it at 45* to see if it measures 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral and post my findings in this forum. If it mesures 3/16 and 0 lateral at 45*, I will admit I was wrong.... If I am not wrong, I expect you to do likewise....OK?
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 4/16/2010 11:38 AM
Post by: leftyinsnellville on April 16, 2010, 12:05:45 PM
So in addition to turning my ball 45 degrees before drilling the thumbhole, I also use a bit that is two sizes smaller than I'd normally use for my thumbhole. After the thumbhole is drilled using proper pitches, I'll adjust the ball over to one side about 1/8 inch and run the bit down again taking out a bit of the side of the hole I just drilled. Then I'll adjust it the other way about 1/4 inch and run the bit down the hole again taking out a bit of the other side. This gives me a good start on an oval thumbhole. I just smooth out the ridges with hand tools, and then bevel and smooth the thumbhole with my sander.
This really creates a great fitting thumbhole. BTW - I use 1/4 lateral and 3/8 reverse pitches.
--------------------
I wanna be a house hack when I grow up.
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Post by: Brickguy221 on April 16, 2010, 04:32:05 PM
quote:
Hold up the palm of your hand in front of your face with your thumb pointing right at you. Think of the tip of your middle finger as 12:00 and the center of your wrist where it connects to your hand as 6:00. Looking at your thumb you''ll notice the back of your thumb does not point towards 6:00, it points towards 4:30 (or 7:30 for lefties), that is the reason for turning the ball 45 degrees before drilling, so the lateral pitch will "tilt" the hole in the same direction your thumb goes. You might also notice while looking straight down your thumb that your thumb is wider (side to side) than it is thick (back to front), thus the reason for the oval drilling for a better fit.
So in addition to turning my ball 45 degrees before drilling the thumbhole, I also use a bit that is two sizes smaller than I''d normally use for my thumbhole. After the thumbhole is drilled using proper pitches, I''ll adjust the ball over to one side about 1/8 inch and run the bit down again taking out a bit of the side of the hole I just drilled. Then I''ll adjust it the other way about 1/4 inch and run the bit down the hole again taking out a bit of the other side. This gives me a good start on an oval thumbhole. I just smooth out the ridges with hand tools, and then bevel and smooth the thumbhole with my sander.
This really creates a great fitting thumbhole. BTW - I use 1/4 lateral and 3/8 reverse pitches.
Thanks Lefty.....You nailed it perfectly as well as explaining it perfectly. I tried but am not the best when it comes to explaining things for others to understand what I am trying to say. Hopefully it is not a lost cause for bowler001 and that he can now get/understand as well as the reason of the purpose of the drilling better. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things, yet everyone still needs to do things the way they feel comfortable with as well as what works best for them. Thus the reason I do it the way I do which is also the way I was taught.
With John P having the type drill he has, I can understand him going about it in a different direction and I am confident that it will work well for him.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 4/16/2010 4:36 PM
Post by: bowler001 on April 16, 2010, 08:27:45 PM
I'm pretty sure that settles the debate. And so you know, it's not trying to disprove the theory...it does make sense, and all John and I were saying is that it is easily replicated using the t grip method once you've done ONE ball. And I understand your thinking, but if a hole's pitch matches at any angle from ball to ball, you can guarantee it will match any other angle you measure it. So if it measures 1/8rev and 1/8left lateral on both balls (t grip), they will always match no matter what "reference line" you use to determine pitch(whether it be 30*, 45*, or 60*). You could even measure it at 180 degrees, they would still match. Matter of fact it would read 1/8 fwd and 1/8 rt lateral..on both balls.
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 16, 2010, 09:37:03 PM
quote:
Well, I just replicated your 45* pitch EXACTLY drilling it on the t-grip lines at 1/8 rev, 1/8 left lateral. Would you like some pics of the pitch gauge in the ball?
I'm pretty sure that settles the debate. And so you know, it's not trying to disprove the theory...it does make sense, and all John and I were saying is that it is easily replicated using the t grip method once you've done ONE ball. And I understand your thinking, but if a hole's pitch matches at any angle from ball to ball, you can guarantee it will match any other angle you measure it. So if it measures 1/8rev and 1/8left lateral on both balls (t grip), they will always match no matter what "reference line" you use to determine pitch(whether it be 30*, 45*, or 60*). You could even measure it at 180 degrees, they would still match. Matter of fact it would read 1/8 fwd and 1/8 rt lateral..on both balls.
bowler001, in going back and reading your posts again, I have come to the conclusion that you and I are on the same page but not understanding each other. We seem to both be approaching this pitch vs 45* angle from different directions but arriving at the same place with the same results. For example, I read your one post of your 0.136 example to mean that you could get the same pitch of 0.136 reverse and left lateral off the T-Grip and that the 45* angle would also measure 0.136. This is what I was disputing is that the 45* angle wouldn't measure the same 0.136 as the reverse & left lateral pitches on the T-Grip measured. The reverse on the 45* angle would be more than 0.136 in this case. In fact the reverse on the 45 degree angle in this case would be approx. 0.198. (0.1875 is 3/16, so your example would measure 3/16+ on the 45* angle)
Now if you just now drilled the 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral on a T-Grip, you should have come up with 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral on the 45 degree angle....did you get that measurement?....I take it you must have as you said I just replicated your 45* pitch EXACTLY and that would be 3/16 reverse and 0 left lateral.
If that is what you came up with, then the case is closed and we are all now in agreement. I too checked it out this evening. I remembered that I had an old ball in the closet with 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral. I dug it out of the closet, took it to the pro shop and it measured 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral on the 45* angle. (same as the one I mentioned yesterday that was drilled 3/16 & 0).....and one more here....I have a ball in my locker that is drilled 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral on the 45* angle. I also checked it on the T-Grip and it measured..... 0 Reverse and 3/16 left lateral which is what it should have measured because if you turned these nos 1/8 turn towards the thumb, you would have 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral.
Now assuming we are all on the same page with this so far, I want to remind you that in order to come up with the correct T-Grip pitches to equal X* pitches at 45*, you need to take your normal every day pitches you use on the T-Grip and drill the first ball at 45*. If the fit is ok as mine was with the 3/16 & 0, then remeasure your 45* drilled pitch on the T-Grip method and you should now have new T-Grip pitches and if drilled like that from then on, it should match the 45* pitch that you drilled on your first 45* drilled ball.....Hopefully I didn't lose you here in trying to say/explain what I mean.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: Doug Sterner on April 16, 2010, 10:51:22 PM
My normal thumb pitches are 3/16 forward and 3/16 left.
Now if I were to rotate the ball 45* and drill the 3/16 left it would add more forward and decrease left. The 3/16 forward when rotated would decrease forward and left.
This is interesting.....maybe I need to try it on one of my junk balls I have laying in the shop.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Post by: JohnP on April 16, 2010, 10:58:14 PM
Post by: Doug Sterner on April 16, 2010, 11:06:15 PM
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 17, 2010, 12:37:08 AM
quote:
My gut feeling is that the rotation method will improve the fit only if the fit was not correct for the bowler''s hand. Does that make sense? -- JohnP
John, what it did for me and everyone else that uses this 45* drilling, is direct the pitches with the direction of the back of my thumb. See leftys explaination of the hand held up and in front of you and the direction the back of thumb points to, and etc. On your trying this 45* rotation with your 7/16 Reverse and 1/8 lateral, you might want to consider also trying it with the 1/8 lateral. My original main thumb pitch on the T-Grip was 1/4 reverse and 1/8 out lateral. On the 45* drilling I found the 1/8 out lateral to be too much and cut to 0 lateral. Later took 1/16 off the reverse and is where I am today on my main balls. The main thing is to get the pitch running in the direction as the back of your thumb runs.
I have always had a lot of reverse thumb pitch and various out lateral pitches. Out of numerous drillers over the years, all drilled close to the same pitches whenever I asked for a re-fit. No way could I ever begin to get out of a ball with 0 reverse pitch and little if any lateral on a T-Grip drilling. No one ever recommended it because of my thumb being somewhat on the stiff side. I didn''t even know until tonight that if measured on a T-Grip reference point that one of my balls had a 0 reverse pitch. That is the one I mentioned above that had 1/8 reverse and 1/8 out lateral on the 45* method and it measured 0 reverse and 3/16 out lateral on a T-Grip type method.
Let me mention here that this same ball was originally 1/8 reverse and 1/8 out lateral on a T-Grip drilling and I didn''t fare well with it. Hung up a lot with it. When I began experimenting with the 45* method, it was the second ball I tried. Kept same pitches and just simply rotated ball 45 degrees, and volia, I could get out of the ball really clean with not even a hint of a hang up.
quote:
I just sat down and drew out some stuff on paper and what I have found is that this concept would produce some VERY extreme pitches in my ball.
Doug, remember, with the ball being round and a paper being flat, when drawing something out on paper it is going to be different on a round ball vs a flat piece of paper, trust me here.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 4/17/2010 0:44 AM
Post by: JohnP on April 17, 2010, 10:33:47 AM
quote:
John, what it did for me and everyone else that uses this 45* drilling, is direct the pitches with the direction of the back of my thumb. See leftys explaination of the hand held up and in front of you and the direction the back of thumb points to, and etc.
Yes, I think I understand the concept and what it's trying to do. Here's a little history behind my grip and thumb pitches. I spent 40 years with thumb release problems. I tried reverse pitches from 1/4 to 1 reverse, but always with 1/4 right lateral. That's what the drillers I used said I needed and I never felt that lateral pitch would really affect the release much, so I never specified otherwise. The best release I got was 3/4 reverse and the 1/4 right, but I still hung in the ball occasionally. My fingers were always drilled at 1/4 forward, again that's what the drillers used and I didn't think that affected my thumb release. Then I began to drill balls and went to a 3 day school at Classic Products in Ft. Wayne. Mike Riggins was the instructor. As a part of the class he fit those that so desired, and I desired. When he checked my finger joint flexibility (in all the times I had been fitted before no one had checked that), he found both 1st joints to be quite stiff. He recommended slightly shorter spans with 5/16 reverse and 1/4 left lateral on the thumb hole, with a slightly larger thumb hole than I had been using. For the fingers he recommended MF - 3/8 reverse and RF - 5/8 reverse. I came home and drilled a ball with these pitches and WOW, what a difference. The reverse in the fingers relaxed my hand so the thumb could release as it should. I still wasn't completely satisfied, as I liked the feel of the tighter thumb better. After a little experimentation I reduced the hole size and added a little more reverse, to 7/16, and reduced the left lateral to 1/8 (I was reading everything I could get my hands on about fitting and learning every day). Then after a while longer I started using Ron Clifton's Magic Carpet. Now I never hang in the ball and it comes off my thumb when it's supposed to. And of all the changes, I think the reverse finger pitch was the key.
I've said all of this to make this point. I suspect my grip is optimum for my hand. I don't see how the 45* rotation could improve it but I'm willing to give it a try. Now, back when I was at 3/4 reverse and 1/4 right, rotating the ball 45* may very well have resulted in close to what I'm using now. So maybe the key is finding a driller that can read your hand and put you in the correct grip, with or without rotating the ball. -- JohnP
Post by: bowler001 on April 17, 2010, 12:21:35 PM
quote:
If that is what you came up with, then the case is closed and we are all now in agreement. I too checked it out this evening. I remembered that I had an old ball in the closet with 1/8 reverse and 1/8 left lateral. I dug it out of the closet, took it to the pro shop and it measured 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral on the 45* angle.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Finally! I was starting to think you were just messing with me. So, yes we are on the same page now. It was fun either way.
Post by: Brickguy221 on April 17, 2010, 12:42:16 PM
quote:
Yes, I think I understand the concept and what it's trying to do. Here's a little history behind my grip and thumb pitches. I spent 40 years with thumb release problems. I tried reverse pitches from 1/4 to 1 reverse, but always with 1/4 right lateral. That's what the drillers I used said I needed and I never felt that lateral pitch would really affect the release much, so I never specified otherwise. The best release I got was 3/4 reverse and the 1/4 right, but I still hung in the ball occasionally. My fingers were always drilled at 1/4 forward, again that's what the drillers used and I didn't think that affected my thumb release. Then I began to drill balls and went to a 3 day school at Classic Products in Ft. Wayne. Mike Riggins was the instructor. As a part of the class he fit those that so desired, and I desired. When he checked my finger joint flexibility (in all the times I had been fitted before no one had checked that), he found both 1st joints to be quite stiff. He recommended slightly shorter spans with 5/16 reverse and 1/4 left lateral on the thumb hole, with a slightly larger thumb hole than I had been using. For the fingers he recommended MF - 3/8 reverse and RF - 5/8 reverse. I came home and drilled a ball with these pitches and WOW, what a difference. The reverse in the fingers relaxed my hand so the thumb could release as it should. I still wasn't completely satisfied, as I liked the feel of the tighter thumb better. After a little experimentation I reduced the hole size and added a little more reverse, to 7/16, and reduced the left lateral to 1/8 (I was reading everything I could get my hands on about fitting and learning every day). Then after a while longer I started using Ron Clifton's Magic Carpet. Now I never hang in the ball and it comes off my thumb when it's supposed to. And of all the changes, I think the reverse finger pitch was the key.
John, I totally understand your struggle with your thumb for 40 years as I had a thumb struggle experience all my life also until October of last year when I began trying this 45* thing and it was an overnight success for me. If it does nothing for you, then your fit is right to begin with. Let me know what your 45* pitch is on your 7/16 reverse and 1/8 left lateral off the T-Grip drilling. With my nos. and your nos, and nos from others, I think a person could almost build a chart with this information???
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: Doug Sterner on April 17, 2010, 02:37:06 PM
As a side note in keeping with the same theme here, how many of you slightly rotate your finger inserts to better match up with the pads on your fingers?
I have been doing this for years. I put my thumb in the ball then lay my hand across the drilled grip holes. I'll then rotate the inserts in the holes until the gripping edge matches up perfectly with the pad on my finger.
I have found this to be a great help in getting a better roll on the ball....
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Post by: Brickguy221 on April 17, 2010, 03:00:29 PM
quote:
Well Brick I just had my fit redone by Mo Pinel about 4 months ago. I wonder if I should even bother experimenting. I mean Mo is pretty well the master...
Well Doug, no one was suggesting that you change. This was only intended for people that have thumb problems such as myself and others. In your case, if you are happy with what you have, then I suggest you keep what you have....if it ain''t broke, don''t fix it....In my case and others that have inquired about this 45* thing, it was broke and needed fixing.
quote:
As a side note in keeping with the same theme here, how many of you slightly rotate your finger inserts to better match up with the pads on your fingers?
I have been doing this for years. I put my thumb in the ball then lay my hand across the drilled grip holes. I''ll then rotate the inserts in the holes until the gripping edge matches up perfectly with the pad on my finger.
I have found this to be a great help in getting a better roll on the ball....
I did that at times before switiching to the 45* drilling, but quit after I switched as I no longer found a benefit in turning the grips. Note, if using the flat side (power lift side) of grips, they don''t quite line up to match the pitch in the finger holes. Some people notice this difference while others don''t. More noticeable with the power lift side of the grips than the oval side of the grips.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 4/17/2010 3:10 PM
Post by: Doug Sterner on April 17, 2010, 09:41:19 PM
Mo made some pretty significant changes in my pitches and my new fit is light years ahead of where it was. He said my hand is one of the "special cases" that doesn't follow the normal fitting rules.
I wonder if trying this would help just that extra little bit with that occasional hang up with my thumb?
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Post by: skidhookgutter on April 18, 2010, 05:12:44 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on May 06, 2010, 11:01:32 PM
Once this was done, after discussionns with Bowler 001 and John P, I neasured the thumb on the T-Grip method. Summary of this is that I finalized my 45* drilling at 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral.... Then when I measured this same thumb hole using the standard T-Grip measuring method, it measured 1/8 reverse and 1/8 our lateral and when measuring it at 45* it measured 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral.
Today I plugged an AMF Heist to change the span and finger pitches. I also reslugged the thumb and redrilled it. This time rather than drill the thumb hole at 45* as I have been doing, I drilled it at 1/8 reverse and 1/8 out lateral. After drilling it, I measured it at 45* and it was a perfect 3/16 reverse and 0 lateral as it was supposed to be.
To sum it up for those trying this, drill your current thumb pitch with the ball turned 45* in the drill press (finger holes 45* left for RH bowlers) and adjust from there if necessary. Once satisified with the fit, then check the thumb pitch the same as you always would on a std. T-Grip drilling. Once those numbers are known, then you can drill all future thumbs using the T-grip drilling method.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: JohnP on May 07, 2010, 10:00:25 AM
Post by: wuznme on June 15, 2010, 06:38:36 PM
quote:
To sum it up for those trying this, drill your current thumb pitch with the ball turned 45* in the drill press (finger holes 45* left for RH bowlers) and adjust from there if necessary. Once satisified with the fit, then check the thumb pitch the same as you always would on a std. T-Grip drilling. Once those numbers are known, then you can drill all future thumbs using the T-grip drilling method.
And to think I stated this back in Oct last year on BBE with you...
Post by: EFFEN 10 on June 19, 2010, 01:39:52 PM
Any Update?
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The more I practice,the luckier I get.
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 19, 2010, 04:17:58 PM
quote:
quote:
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To sum it up for those trying this, drill your current thumb pitch with the ball turned 45* in the drill press (finger holes 45* left for RH bowlers) and adjust from there if necessary. Once satisified with the fit, then check the thumb pitch the same as you always would on a std. T-Grip drilling. Once those numbers are known, then you can drill all future thumbs using the T-grip drilling method.
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And to think I stated this back in Oct last year on BBE with you...
That is correct. That may have been my quote but I''m not going to look it up to see but..... that is the way you do it.
For a long discussion, go to this link on BBE.
http://www.bowlingballexchange.com/showthread.php?t=32344
There are something like 256 postings in that link, so everything you need to know is in that link.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 6/19/2010 4:20 PM
Post by: JohnP on June 21, 2010, 11:15:31 AM
quote:
JohnP
Any Update?
I haven't tried it yet. -- JohnP