Author Topic: To Static Weight experts! (Read 8694 times)

LuckyLefty · « **on:** February 20, 2005, 02:12:16 PM »

A funny thought happened to me recently.

We think of static weights in relation to the grip.
YEs we must weigh in relation to the grip for getting a ball legal.

BUT, shouldn't we think of static weights in relation to the original ball track.

I mean a ball that has a static weight of 0 still has weight imbalance in relation to the ball track.

And if a guy is a low tracker he has considerable side weight if measured in relation to his low track. Maybe this combined with not much surface like a high tracker touching the lane may have something to do with the low tracker difficulty in handling oil. Though he may have a legal side weight in relation to the grip he may have 3 ounces of side weight if measured in relation to his first track. Whereas the high tracker may be be legal and only exhibiting 1 1/2 ounces of side weight if measured in relation to his primary track.

I'm sure in the days of yore this was a concept thought of and discussed in the past.

Gurus? T-God?

REgards,

luckylefty
PS along with this question are there many of you that have tried 6 X 6 drillings etc for length. How much backend do you get? Or 6 X 6 1/2?

a_ak57 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2005, 07:26:22 PM »

Ric is just taking things to the extreme. OF course he knows that an ounce will have some effect according to the laws of physics, but he's saying you shouldn't pull your hair out believing it's super important. The amount of importance and effect the one ounce will have is incredibly minute.

I think one reason that the marked CG is not that relevant, is because it changes after drilling. After all, the CG is just a heavy spot on the ball. If you remove weight from the ball, that spot will change. So the marked one doesn't make a difference after the ball is drilled, since it's no longer the true CG. I think someone even did tests to prove this, in another thread.
--------------------
- Andy

Edited on 2/22/2005 8:22 PM

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2005, 06:35:44 AM »

TOTAL HIJACK!

AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

REgards,

Luckylefty

stanski · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:14:45 AM »

quote:
BTW, because the baking method causes a boall to contract and expand, you cna easily crack your core, so how can you condone that? Just Curious.
--------------------
LANE#1 Questions>>>Just Ask.

My Saws NEVER Stop Cutting.

[hijack mode] Because in a controlled environment (100-135 degrees F), the core will not expand faster than the coverstock or to the point where it expands much more than the coverstock. Brunswick does not promote baking, they promote controlled heating by bowling designed machines (the ones that spin while keeping the temperature relatively low). You're wrong, just shut up now [/hijack mode]
--------------------
stanski

T-GOD · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:15:09 PM »

quote:
Just to let you in on the test, we take 3 bowling balls, and have the pin in the same place (distance from PAP) on all 3 bowling balls. The 'CGs' are placed in 3 different locations-1 oz negative, 1 oz positive and 2 1/2 oz positive side. On the Throbot, tracking with the most extensive CATS system, the difference was unmeasurable at 50ft.

You've gotta be kidding me..?

Every company out there puts out drill sheets that say swinging the CG/changing the core angle, one way or another, changes ball reaction/motion.

Rick, wake up here..!! =:^D

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:43:02 PM »

Before I start:

I am not trying to highjack but there is something that I just HAVE to say.

So many people say that static weights don't make a difference well I beg to differ.

LL stated earlier to just take the same ball and drill it with the pin in the same position in relation to PAP both vertically and horizontally.
Some one had the response that the was a matter of mass bias not static weight.
What is mass? weight. Therefore if you have a bias of weight you are creating a mass bias.
I don't care how many tests have been done by a company it is all a matter of physics and physics can not be changed they are not theory they are FACT.
Yes it may not make much of a difference with a modern ball but do the same test on a ball that does not have a strong core that overpowers the static weights and you will get a much different result.
Once more static weights are only static while the ball is not in motion, hence the definition of STATIC. As soon as the ball is in motion the static weight/mass bias is no longer static it is dynamic.
For these reasons and the laws of physics the sanctioning bodies have created regulations to control the amount of static weight imbalance allowed to be legal. If static weights had no affect on ball motion there would not be a regulation because it would be irrelevant.
To further my point isn't a core's shape and densities just static weights, YES they just happen to be in the center of the ball.
Take an asymmetrical ball and add more weight in the area of it's designed enhanced weight/mass bias and you have just created a stronger mass bias.
If static weights did not affect ball motion then pin out distance would not effect ball motion because all pin out causes is a weight/mass bias.

Again sorry for the RANT but people should not believe everything they read or see when there are facts that do not change to disprove what they read or saw.

PS
If you disagree with what I have stated one of my good friends is PHysics professor at the University of Illinois and I am quit sure he would be able to explain physics to you.
--------------------
STORM TRACK

If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.

Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com

BR.com's unofficial FAQ section

Edited on 2/23/2005 11:44 PM

Track900 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2005, 11:22:14 PM »

I agree with what you have said. I think that the entire point of the cg not effecting ball reaction has been taken wrong. A better way of stating this would be to say that in today's performance bowling equipment, cg placement (static weights) has so little to do with a balls overall reaction that they are basically irrelavent. Today's cores and coverstocks are so advanced and strong that they have taken complete precedence over static weights and their effect in shaping a ball reaction. Yes, according to the laws of physics, positive one once of side weight will make a ball hook more. However, the amount of that hook in a piece of today's equipment is so small that several companies with high technology equipment can not measure a difference. That is the whole point. It is, for all intents and purposes, irrelavent.

stanski · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2005, 11:43:20 PM »

quote:
Before I start:

I am not trying to highjack but there is something that I just HAVE to say.

So many people say that static weights don't make a difference well I beg to differ.

LL stated earlier to just take the same ball and drill it with the pin in the same position in relation to PAP both vertically and horizontally.
Some one had the response that the was a matter of mass bias not static weight.
What is mass? weight. Therefore if you have a bias of weight you are creating a mass bias.
I don't care how many tests have been done by a company it is all a matter of physics and physics can not be changed they are not theory they are FACT.
Yes it may not make much of a difference with a modern ball but do the same test on a ball that does not have a strong core that overpowers the static weights and you will get a much different result.
Once more static weights are only static while the ball is not in motion, hence the definition of STATIC. As soon as the ball is in motion the static weight/mass bias is no longer static it is dynamic.
For these reasons and the laws of physics the sanctioning bodies have created regulations to control the amount of static weight imbalance allowed to be legal. If static weights had no affect on ball motion there would not be a regulation because it would be irrelevant.
To further my point isn't a core's shape and densities just static weights, YES they just happen to be in the center of the ball.
Take an asymmetrical ball and add more weight in the area of it's designed enhanced weight/mass bias and you have just created a stronger mass bias.
If static weights did not affect ball motion then pin out distance would not effect ball motion because all pin out causes is a weight/mass bias.

Again sorry for the RANT but people should not believe everything they read or see when there are facts that do not change to disprove what they read or saw.

PS
If you disagree with what I have stated one of my good friends is PHysics professor at the University of Illinois and I am quit sure he would be able to explain physics to you.
--------------------
STORM TRACK

If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.

Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com

BR.com's unofficial FAQ section

Edited on 2/23/2005 11:44 PM

I have taken 4 different physics classes in college, and will agree with you completely on the basis of theory. But, there is also a theory out there that says that all objects will fall at the same acceleration. Is this true in the real world? no. the same goes for the mass bias case that you've given here. Its a little off on a tangent from my example, but the point is, in the real world, things don't work out how you think they should. we're talking about ounces here in an object that undergoes such a great force from the core and cover, that the ounces will be overcome.

Yes, moving it might make a board of difference, but at this point, at my average (219 in one league, 211 in another, 182 sport average) it won't make a whole hell of a lot of difference to me.
--------------------
stanski

Track900 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2005, 11:48:59 PM »

Stanski, the point is that it will not even make a board difference. Not one board.

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2005, 11:52:35 PM »

stanski

Physics are not theory, ball motion is theory.
The laws of phyysics have been around since the dawn of time, they have not changed and never will.

My whole point to this is do NOT discount static weights because they can make a difference, regardless of the studies that have been performed.

Granted if you have a ball that has a strong core and/or cover it won't amount to much, but if you get in the habit of disregarding the weights with strong equipment you will do the same with the weaker cored/covered equipment and it could make the difference in the ball working or not.

NEVER SAY NEVER
--------------------
STORM TRACK

If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.

Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com

BR.com's unofficial FAQ section

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #25 on:** February 24, 2005, 12:00:31 AM »

quote:
But, there is also a theory out there that says that all objects will fall at the same acceleration.

There is 1 part to that equation that you left out, all objects that have the same mass to volume ratio will fall/accelerate at the same rate, due to gravity .

With what you stated about physics 1# of feathers would fall at the same rate as 1# of lead, this is not true, obviously.

There are many other factors that add to the equation such as aerodynamic drag but we wont get into that.

--------------------
STORM TRACK

If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.

Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com

BR.com's unofficial FAQ section

Edited on 2/24/2005 0:58 AM

stanski · « **Reply #26 on:** February 24, 2005, 12:05:06 AM »

quote:
quote:
But, there is also a theory out there that says that all objects will fall at the same acceleration.

There is 1 part to that equation that you left out, all objects that have the same mass to volume ratio will fall/accelerate at the same rate, due to gravity .

With what you stated about physics 1# of feathers would fall at the same rate as 1# of lead, this is not true, obviously.

There are many other factors that add to the equation such as aerodynamic drag but we wont get into that.

--------------------
STORM TRACK

If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.

Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com

BR.com's unofficial FAQ section

Edited on 2/24/2005 0:58 AM

with no air resistance, 1 pound of feathers and one pound of lead do fall at the same velocity. That was my point. even 1 feather falls at the same acceleration as 5 pounds of lead in a vaccuum, just not with the same force.
--------------------
stanski

Re-Evolution · « **Reply #27 on:** February 24, 2005, 12:16:01 AM »

We don't live in a vacumn though.

If we did water would freeze at 32, thaw at 30.infinity1 and evaporate at 30.infinity2.

Even in what is considered a perfect vacumn on earth 29.97" hg (mercury) gravity is not affected what weighed 1 pound @ atmospheric pressure 14.7psi still weighs 1# minus the weight of the air in the object.

If you would like to test this, get a simple AC vacumn pump and a mason jar and check the weight pre and post vacumn.

--------------------
STORM TRACK

If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.

Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com

BR.com's unofficial FAQ section

stanski · « **Reply #28 on:** February 24, 2005, 12:27:24 AM »

quote:
We don't live in a vacumn though.

If we did water would freeze at 32, thaw at 30.infinity1 and evaporate at 30.infinity2.

Even in what is considered a perfect vacumn on earth 29.97" hg (mercury) gravity is not affected what weighed 1 pound @ atmospheric pressure 14.7psi still weighs 1# minus the weight of the air in the object.

If you would like to test this, get a simple AC vacumn pump and a mason jar and check the weight pre and post vacumn.

--------------------
STORM TRACK

If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.

Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com

BR.com's unofficial FAQ section

I know... thats the point i was making, theoretical vs. reality

Theoretical- any mass bias should make a significant difference in reaction

Actual-the cg does not have a significant effect on ball reaction for a human throwing the ball to justify laying it out as if it will make a difference.

weight is not affected, you want to know why? To measure weight, you must measure the force that a mass applies to some other mass(mass is different than weight) and mass is constant, force of gravity is constant and F=mass x gravity (9.8 m/s^2). So therefore, the only variable in this equation is the mass factor, and so yes, the weight will be different. however, they will fall at different accelerations, as newton proved in the 1700's, that all objects in a vacuum fall with the same instantaneous rate of change.

Like i said, the weight doesn't change in a vaccuum, this is true. What does change is the fact that all objects will fall with the same acceleration and instantaneous velocities. I can bring up some video of a feather and lead weight falling at the same speed, I've seen it before on the internet, because it is completely possible in a vacuum.
--------------------
stanski

a_ak57 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 24, 2005, 05:59:37 AM »

This is how I see how static weights affect ball reaction. Say you have a ball of putty that is a foot in diameter, and spin it in the air. Static weights would be the equivalent of taking a very small piece of putty and adding it to a side. When you spin the ball again, yes, due to scientific laws, the putty ball will be affected, but are you going to see a huge difference? No. Probably couldn't even tell the difference.
--------------------
- Andy

T-GOD · « **Reply #30 on:** February 24, 2005, 07:40:18 AM »

Strom Track, amen brother..!! It's nice to see there's someone else here with knowledge of physics and some common sense. =:^D

Author Topic: To Static Weight experts! (Read 8694 times)

LuckyLefty

To Static Weight experts!

a_ak57

Re: To Static Weight experts!

LuckyLefty

Re: To Static Weight experts!

stanski

Re: To Static Weight experts!

T-GOD

Re: To Static Weight experts!

Re-Evolution

Re: To Static Weight experts!

Track900

Re: To Static Weight experts!

stanski

Re: To Static Weight experts!

Track900

Re: To Static Weight experts!

Re-Evolution

Re: To Static Weight experts!

Re-Evolution

Re: To Static Weight experts!

stanski

Re: To Static Weight experts!

Re-Evolution

Re: To Static Weight experts!

stanski

Re: To Static Weight experts!

a_ak57

Re: To Static Weight experts!

T-GOD

Re: To Static Weight experts!