Post by: LuckyLefty on February 20, 2005, 02:12:16 PM
We think of static weights in relation to the grip.
YEs we must weigh in relation to the grip for getting a ball legal.
BUT, shouldn't we think of static weights in relation to the original ball track.
I mean a ball that has a static weight of 0 still has weight imbalance in relation to the ball track.
And if a guy is a low tracker he has considerable side weight if measured in relation to his low track. Maybe this combined with not much surface like a high tracker touching the lane may have something to do with the low tracker difficulty in handling oil. Though he may have a legal side weight in relation to the grip he may have 3 ounces of side weight if measured in relation to his first track. Whereas the high tracker may be be legal and only exhibiting 1 1/2 ounces of side weight if measured in relation to his primary track.
I'm sure in the days of yore this was a concept thought of and discussed in the past.
Gurus? T-God?
REgards,
luckylefty
PS along with this question are there many of you that have tried 6 X 6 drillings etc for length. How much backend do you get? Or 6 X 6 1/2?
Post by: JohnP on February 21, 2005, 01:53:36 PM
Post by: T-GOD on February 21, 2005, 07:38:48 PM
Because weights are measured from your grip center, a bowler with a low track will turn ball with 2 oz. of top weight with no side weight, into a ball with 1 1/2 side. Basically the weight of the ball is closer to his PAP, because a low tracker has a shorter PAP distance.
As you can see, weight closer to your PAP makes the ball go longer. Side weight means the weight/ending center of gravity is closer to your PAP. This is why positive side weight is not recommended for a low tracker bowling on oil.
Spinners and/ow low trackers need the weight closer to your track, so it rolls more end over end. Less side weight and/or negative side will get the ball to start earleir and hook more in oil for spinners.
So, a 6 x 6 1/2 ect... will hook more for low trackers and/pr bowlers with more side turn. This type of weight/layout may roll out for bowlers with a higher track, especially if the core is more stable/symmetrical.
With an assymmetrical core, a bowler with a higher track may be able to get away with the ball not rolling out with a 6 x 6 1/2 layout. =:^D
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 21, 2005, 10:49:36 PM
Possible hijacking of my post!
Ahhhhhh Hemmm!
So back to my question.... For drilling for less midlane a far pin position can help get less flare and allow the ball to go straighter for longer. But by putting cg on track(ie in my case about 6 1/2 to 7 from PAP,(high tracker) this negates the effect of a long pin correct. So for T god my static weight expert?
Would you recommend a 6 or 6 1/2 X 5 for my high tracking medium reving not enough tiltin self on a strong wet dry with 40 feet of light volume and very jumpy mids? I had been in to drilling stuff with my cg kicked back towards track with pin at 5 and 5 1/2 but on the negative side of the ball I have very little experience to go by. Except several 6 X 7s(I bought from righties).
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: Track900 on February 21, 2005, 10:59:22 PM
"We have done CATS testing on the ball's overall reaction with different static weights and the results showed no measurable difference of ball reaction. There were far greater reaction differences involved by the bowler's inconsistency of ball speed, rev rate, axis rotation and tilt. The greatest reaction differences came when altering the surface friction of the coverstock."
Post by: Brickguy221 on February 21, 2005, 11:26:17 PM
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Why do you need my signature?....You know who I am.
Post by: stanski on February 21, 2005, 11:31:15 PM
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stanski
Post by: Brickguy221 on February 21, 2005, 11:34:55 PM
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Why do you need my signature?....You know who I am.
Post by: stanski on February 21, 2005, 11:42:58 PM
quote:
Stan, your statement (and I agree with it) backs up what BrunsRicH keeps trying to get across to people.
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Why do you need my signature?....You know who I am.
Yeah, he really is the one you all should be listening to. I am just trying to throw another opinion in there to try and make a difference. People just won't believe the earth isn't flat...
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stanski
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 22, 2005, 12:15:01 AM
Get two balls the same model and manufacturer drill both with 5 inch pin to paps.
One of you drill it stacked and the other put the cg out towards the negative PAP.
Good luck not seeing the difference.
Now if you guys don't mind.
Start this post.
"Why I believe CG doesn't matter" There you guys can sit around and pat each other on the back.
REgards.
Luckylefty
Post by: Re-Evolution on February 22, 2005, 01:11:20 AM
--------------------
STORM TRACK
If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.
Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com (http://"www.Bowling-Info.com/index.php")
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Post by: LuckyLefty on February 22, 2005, 10:30:16 AM
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS I'm just trying to figure out an approriate pin location and core orientation for this condition.
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 22, 2005, 04:28:46 PM
I want to know pin position and cg or mass bias but CORE ORIENTATION to achieve my objective and I don't want to have this stupid repetitive discussion. Please take it to another post. "Mass bias and cgs that I like to argue about"
Yikes!
REgards,
LUckylefty
PS I'm in an area of pin positions and mass bias locations or cg locations that I'm not familiar(past the bridge and the grip center) with and am trying to create a different reaction to solve a condition.
PPS there is only one company that maintains that core orientation(on symmetric balls this implies the cg doesn't matter). It is not Track, it is not Columbia, it is not Roto grip, it is not Lane 1, it is a big company, it is a good company, but it stands alone in saying that only pin position, surface and weight hole location determine reaction. How do I know, every other company in its drill instructions prominently displays cg on symmetric ball drilling instructions and prominently displays mass bias in their assymetric drilling instructions.
Post by: RSalas on February 22, 2005, 06:30:15 PM
quote:
It is frustrating when an individual or individuals that choose their beliefs, also choose to 'put-down' a company for trying to educate by doing research so we understand ball motion and reaction better, to help the masses be better bowlers by our research.
BrunsRicH: Welcome to BallReviews.com!
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Trumpet's Rusty Rat, JH, WC, Can WC...1/3/1992-2/14/2005
Horrid in Doubles, torrid in Singles...
...that's The Curse of Dusty.
Post by: a_ak57 on February 22, 2005, 06:37:13 PM
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- Andy
Post by: a_ak57 on February 22, 2005, 07:26:22 PM
I think one reason that the marked CG is not that relevant, is because it changes after drilling. After all, the CG is just a heavy spot on the ball. If you remove weight from the ball, that spot will change. So the marked one doesn't make a difference after the ball is drilled, since it's no longer the true CG. I think someone even did tests to prove this, in another thread.
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- Andy
Edited on 2/22/2005 8:22 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 23, 2005, 06:35:44 AM
AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: stanski on February 23, 2005, 10:14:45 AM
quote:
BTW, because the baking method causes a boall to contract and expand, you cna easily crack your core, so how can you condone that? Just Curious.
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LANE#1 Questions>>>Just Ask.
My Saws NEVER Stop Cutting.
[hijack mode] Because in a controlled environment (100-135 degrees F), the core will not expand faster than the coverstock or to the point where it expands much more than the coverstock. Brunswick does not promote baking, they promote controlled heating by bowling designed machines (the ones that spin while keeping the temperature relatively low). You're wrong, just shut up now [/hijack mode]
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stanski
Post by: T-GOD on February 23, 2005, 10:15:09 PM
quote:You've gotta be kidding me..?
Just to let you in on the test, we take 3 bowling balls, and have the pin in the same place (distance from PAP) on all 3 bowling balls. The 'CGs' are placed in 3 different locations-1 oz negative, 1 oz positive and 2 1/2 oz positive side. On the Throbot, tracking with the most extensive CATS system, the difference was unmeasurable at 50ft.
Every company out there puts out drill sheets that say swinging the CG/changing the core angle, one way or another, changes ball reaction/motion.
Rick, wake up here..!! =:^D
Post by: Re-Evolution on February 23, 2005, 10:43:02 PM
I am not trying to highjack but there is something that I just HAVE to say.
So many people say that static weights don't make a difference well I beg to differ.
LL stated earlier to just take the same ball and drill it with the pin in the same position in relation to PAP both vertically and horizontally.
Some one had the response that the was a matter of mass bias not static weight.
What is mass? weight. Therefore if you have a bias of weight you are creating a mass bias.
I don't care how many tests have been done by a company it is all a matter of physics and physics can not be changed they are not theory they are FACT.
Yes it may not make much of a difference with a modern ball but do the same test on a ball that does not have a strong core that overpowers the static weights and you will get a much different result.
Once more static weights are only static while the ball is not in motion, hence the definition of STATIC. As soon as the ball is in motion the static weight/mass bias is no longer static it is dynamic.
For these reasons and the laws of physics the sanctioning bodies have created regulations to control the amount of static weight imbalance allowed to be legal. If static weights had no affect on ball motion there would not be a regulation because it would be irrelevant.
To further my point isn't a core's shape and densities just static weights, YES they just happen to be in the center of the ball.
Take an asymmetrical ball and add more weight in the area of it's designed enhanced weight/mass bias and you have just created a stronger mass bias.
If static weights did not affect ball motion then pin out distance would not effect ball motion because all pin out causes is a weight/mass bias.
Again sorry for the RANT but people should not believe everything they read or see when there are facts that do not change to disprove what they read or saw.
PS
If you disagree with what I have stated one of my good friends is PHysics professor at the University of Illinois and I am quit sure he would be able to explain physics to you.
--------------------
STORM TRACK
If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.
Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com (http://"www.Bowling-Info.com/index.php")
BR.com's unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Edited on 2/23/2005 11:44 PM
Post by: Track900 on February 23, 2005, 11:22:14 PM
Post by: stanski on February 23, 2005, 11:43:20 PM
quote:
Before I start:
I am not trying to highjack but there is something that I just HAVE to say.
So many people say that static weights don't make a difference well I beg to differ.
LL stated earlier to just take the same ball and drill it with the pin in the same position in relation to PAP both vertically and horizontally.
Some one had the response that the was a matter of mass bias not static weight.
What is mass? weight. Therefore if you have a bias of weight you are creating a mass bias.
I don't care how many tests have been done by a company it is all a matter of physics and physics can not be changed they are not theory they are FACT.
Yes it may not make much of a difference with a modern ball but do the same test on a ball that does not have a strong core that overpowers the static weights and you will get a much different result.
Once more static weights are only static while the ball is not in motion, hence the definition of STATIC. As soon as the ball is in motion the static weight/mass bias is no longer static it is dynamic.
For these reasons and the laws of physics the sanctioning bodies have created regulations to control the amount of static weight imbalance allowed to be legal. If static weights had no affect on ball motion there would not be a regulation because it would be irrelevant.
To further my point isn't a core's shape and densities just static weights, YES they just happen to be in the center of the ball.
Take an asymmetrical ball and add more weight in the area of it's designed enhanced weight/mass bias and you have just created a stronger mass bias.
If static weights did not affect ball motion then pin out distance would not effect ball motion because all pin out causes is a weight/mass bias.
Again sorry for the RANT but people should not believe everything they read or see when there are facts that do not change to disprove what they read or saw.
PS
If you disagree with what I have stated one of my good friends is PHysics professor at the University of Illinois and I am quit sure he would be able to explain physics to you.
--------------------
STORM TRACK
If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.
Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com (http://"www.Bowling-Info.com/index.php")
BR.com's unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Edited on 2/23/2005 11:44 PM
I have taken 4 different physics classes in college, and will agree with you completely on the basis of theory. But, there is also a theory out there that says that all objects will fall at the same acceleration. Is this true in the real world? no. the same goes for the mass bias case that you've given here. Its a little off on a tangent from my example, but the point is, in the real world, things don't work out how you think they should. we're talking about ounces here in an object that undergoes such a great force from the core and cover, that the ounces will be overcome.
Yes, moving it might make a board of difference, but at this point, at my average (219 in one league, 211 in another, 182 sport average) it won't make a whole hell of a lot of difference to me.
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stanski
Post by: Track900 on February 23, 2005, 11:48:59 PM
Post by: Re-Evolution on February 23, 2005, 11:52:35 PM
Physics are not theory, ball motion is theory.
The laws of phyysics have been around since the dawn of time, they have not changed and never will.
My whole point to this is do NOT discount static weights because they can make a difference, regardless of the studies that have been performed.
Granted if you have a ball that has a strong core and/or cover it won't amount to much, but if you get in the habit of disregarding the weights with strong equipment you will do the same with the weaker cored/covered equipment and it could make the difference in the ball working or not.
NEVER SAY NEVER
--------------------
STORM TRACK
If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.
Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com (http://"www.Bowling-Info.com/index.php")
BR.com's unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: Re-Evolution on February 24, 2005, 12:00:31 AM
quote:
But, there is also a theory out there that says that all objects will fall at the same acceleration.
There is 1 part to that equation that you left out, all objects that have the same mass to volume ratio will fall/accelerate at the same rate, due to gravity .
With what you stated about physics 1# of feathers would fall at the same rate as 1# of lead, this is not true, obviously.
There are many other factors that add to the equation such as aerodynamic drag but we wont get into that.
--------------------
STORM TRACK
If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.
Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com (http://"www.Bowling-Info.com/index.php")
BR.com's unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Edited on 2/24/2005 0:58 AM
Post by: stanski on February 24, 2005, 12:05:06 AM
quote:quote:
But, there is also a theory out there that says that all objects will fall at the same acceleration.
There is 1 part to that equation that you left out, all objects that have the same mass to volume ratio will fall/accelerate at the same rate, due to gravity .
With what you stated about physics 1# of feathers would fall at the same rate as 1# of lead, this is not true, obviously.
There are many other factors that add to the equation such as aerodynamic drag but we wont get into that.
--------------------
STORM TRACK
If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.
Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com (http://"www.Bowling-Info.com/index.php")
BR.com's unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Edited on 2/24/2005 0:58 AM
with no air resistance, 1 pound of feathers and one pound of lead do fall at the same velocity. That was my point. even 1 feather falls at the same acceleration as 5 pounds of lead in a vaccuum, just not with the same force.
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stanski
Post by: Re-Evolution on February 24, 2005, 12:16:01 AM
If we did water would freeze at 32, thaw at 30.infinity1 and evaporate at 30.infinity2.
Even in what is considered a perfect vacumn on earth 29.97" hg (mercury) gravity is not affected what weighed 1 pound @ atmospheric pressure 14.7psi still weighs 1# minus the weight of the air in the object.
If you would like to test this, get a simple AC vacumn pump and a mason jar and check the weight pre and post vacumn.
--------------------
STORM TRACK
If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.
Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com (http://"www.Bowling-Info.com/index.php")
BR.com's unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: stanski on February 24, 2005, 12:27:24 AM
quote:
We don't live in a vacumn though.
If we did water would freeze at 32, thaw at 30.infinity1 and evaporate at 30.infinity2.
Even in what is considered a perfect vacumn on earth 29.97" hg (mercury) gravity is not affected what weighed 1 pound @ atmospheric pressure 14.7psi still weighs 1# minus the weight of the air in the object.
If you would like to test this, get a simple AC vacumn pump and a mason jar and check the weight pre and post vacumn.
--------------------
STORM TRACK
If you get caught in the Storm Track beware it could be a Typhoon or Monsoon with Rolling Thunder and Lightning Flashes that when Unleashed may send splintered Wood flying everywhere.
Post your videos at my site.
www.Bowling-Info.com (http://"www.Bowling-Info.com/index.php")
BR.com's unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
I know... thats the point i was making, theoretical vs. reality
Theoretical- any mass bias should make a significant difference in reaction
Actual-the cg does not have a significant effect on ball reaction for a human throwing the ball to justify laying it out as if it will make a difference.
weight is not affected, you want to know why? To measure weight, you must measure the force that a mass applies to some other mass(mass is different than weight) and mass is constant, force of gravity is constant and F=mass x gravity (9.8 m/s^2). So therefore, the only variable in this equation is the mass factor, and so yes, the weight will be different. however, they will fall at different accelerations, as newton proved in the 1700's, that all objects in a vacuum fall with the same instantaneous rate of change.
Like i said, the weight doesn't change in a vaccuum, this is true. What does change is the fact that all objects will fall with the same acceleration and instantaneous velocities. I can bring up some video of a feather and lead weight falling at the same speed, I've seen it before on the internet, because it is completely possible in a vacuum.
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stanski
Post by: a_ak57 on February 24, 2005, 05:59:37 AM
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- Andy
Post by: T-GOD on February 24, 2005, 07:40:18 AM
Post by: stanski on February 24, 2005, 10:18:11 AM
quote:
Strom Track, amen brother..!! It's nice to see there's someone else here with knowledge of physics and some common sense. =:^D
And I don't have a knowledge of physics, even though i admitted that theoretically, there will be a difference between reaction, but in reality, it will not be more than a board difference, something we shouldn't rack our brains over?
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stanski
Post by: Strapper_Squared on February 24, 2005, 11:42:14 AM
quote:
OK if cg doesn't matter why don't you guys do the following.
Get two balls the same model and manufacturer drill both with 5 inch pin to paps.
One of you drill it stacked and the other put the cg out towards the negative PAP.
Good luck not seeing the difference.
Now if you guys don't mind.
Start this post.
"Why I believe CG doesn't matter" There you guys can sit around and pat each other on the back.
REgards.
Luckylefty
the only probable difference from these two would be the effect of a weight hole The layout with the cg towards the negative PAP doesn't require a weight hole. The stacked layout will likely require (or at least capable of accepting w/ out being illegal) a weight hole. Without the weight hole, both symmetric core balls (same pin to PAP will be very similar in reaction). Using a weight hole changes that as it changes core dynamics.
S^2
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+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-Strapper Squared
http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/news?slug=ap-sorenstam-divorce&prov=ap&type=lgns
Post by: tekneek on February 24, 2005, 01:43:13 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 24, 2005, 10:59:06 PM
"CG" at a Brunswick bowlers meeting!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS If CGs don't matter how come you don't throw your 4 X 0 drilled ball fromt the inside unless the backends are screamin!
PPS Don't worry you can yell "CG" at a Storm meeting, Columbia meeting, Dynothane meeting, AMF meeting, Track meeting, Ebonite meeting and a Rotogrip meeting. If fact if you yell cg at a Lane#1 meeting they may just get all excited and go out and buy some more coverstock from you know who..... Brunswick.
How do I know? They put it on their drill sheets!
PPPS Still love ya Brunswick baby, in fact I had a good shot at 300 today with my Dynamic groove, drilled as though cg didn't matter! 3/4 of side weight baby on everything, special sauce included!
Post by: BackToBasics on February 25, 2005, 09:57:52 AM
quote:
If CGs don't matter how come you don't throw your 4 X 0 drilled ball fromt the inside unless the backends are screamin!
Because generally speaking, a 4 x 0 or 0* layout requires a huge and/or deep hole to make the ball legal. It's also generally placed on the axis. This gets the ball to start up very quickly and expend energy throughout the entire lane.
I've had a 4 x 0 that had very low top to start out with so the weight hole was very small. That ball cornered much harder than others with the same layout and I could play anywhere on the lane with it.
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Anthony Chapman
Track International Staff
Turbo Grips 2-N-1 Staff