Author Topic: Understanding drillings (Read 23990 times)

pba300900 · « **on:** February 21, 2012, 05:36:12 AM »

I have been drilling my own balls for a few years now. Previously I went with the generic pin-up/pin-down layouts but now I am interested in drilling based on my pap and dual angles and all that stuff. Is there a website that lists what the different pin-to-pap distances and angles do? If not can someone please help enlighten me? Thanks.

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spmcgivern · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2012, 12:52:05 PM »

I think the Dual Angle method is a better system to use for now. The Storm method does provide the same abilities in drilling a ball, but the numbers can be misleading.

A 4" PAP-MB distance in the Storm method means something different depending on the Pin-PAP distance. If the Pin-PAP distance if short, then a 4" PAP-MB distance creates a significant drilling angle. If the Pin-PAP distance is longer then a 4" Pin-PAP distance would create a smaller drilling angle. Same distance, different results.

Same applies for the pin buffer where the Pin-PAP distance will change the effect of a constant pin buffer.

This means a 4" x 2" x 4" is drastically different than a 4" x 6" x 4" beyond the difference in Pin-PAP. But a 45° x 2" x 45° is similar to a 45° x 6" x 45° drilling.

This is my understanding of the two systems. This may be why Storm doesn't have any analysis of their system and how the distances relate to ball reaction.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

Edited by spmcgivern on 2/23/2012 at 1:52 PM

Edited by spmcgivern on 2/23/2012 at 1:54 PM

Stan · « **Reply #17 on:** February 24, 2012, 02:36:57 PM »

That's exactly what I do. I allow two hours for a new customer, starting on the lane to determine PAP location, axis tilt and rotation, and the relationship between his speed and revs (I have to use my judgement on that, don't use video). Then moving on to fitting, discussion of what he wants the ball to do, layout, drilling, then trying the ball out on the lanes. Our prices probably are a little higher than most shops, top end balls with finger grips and a thumb slug are about $260 + tax, but I drill internet balls for a fixed fee of $60 + tax which includes finger grips and a thumb slug. We don't even charge for the lineage to evaluate the customer and try out the ball. I do have the advantage of having retired from a good career and do this more as a hobby than to make money, plus our center manager doesn't mind giving some lane time away to develop a new customer. -- JohnP

John, that is exactly the problem. You watch someone bowl and you "Guess" what their specs are. That is really no different than drilling from the drill sheet. Without accurate specs, your dual angle layout is no different than any other layout.

This is my main beef about dual angel layouts. I really believe, those shop that pretend to use them are only guessing on the customers specs. Please do not tell me that by eye, you can get their rev rate and tell the difference from a 45 degree to 60 degree axis rotation. I am sure you are doing your best, but a guess is a guess.

Edited by Stan on 2/24/2012 at 3:39 PM

JohnP · « **Reply #18 on:** February 24, 2012, 06:44:20 PM »

OK, but at least it's a guess that I can put into a scientifically proven system. If I'm off a little I'll still provide a better matched layout than I can with any other system. You use whatever system you want, I'm sticking with dual angle. -- JohnP

Stan · « **Reply #19 on:** February 24, 2012, 08:48:55 PM »

John, you know the old saying. "Garbage in, Garbage out".

If you can not accurately obtain the bowlers specs, then it does not matter what system you use. You are just guessing on what the layout should be and also doing a disservce to your customers who think they are getting a "True" dual angle drilling based on their style of play.

As I said before, even in bowlingchat, too many pro shops and even bowlers are guessing on their specs. That is the downside of the Dual Angle method.

Stan · « **Reply #20 on:** February 25, 2012, 08:15:48 AM »

OK, but at least it's a guess that I can put into a scientifically proven system. If I'm off a little I'll still provide a better matched layout than I can with any other system. You use whatever system you want, I'm sticking with dual angle. -- JohnP

John, lets take a real close look at the Dual Angle Layout (not Mo's paramenters).

1. Draw you base line from the pin to the MB.

2. Then mark off you drill angle and mark your Pin to PAP.

Lets stop here first. The drill angle determines your MB to PAP. Greater drill angles equals bigger MB to PAP numbers. For example, if you drill angle was zero, Pin to PAP was 4 then your MB to PAP would be 2 3/4 (standard MB Placement). The further you move the Drill angle out, the larger the MB to PAP becomes. So what you have just done is a standard MB/PIN to PAP layout.

3. Next, you mark off your VAL angle.

Lets stop again. The larger your VAL angle the greater your pin buffer is. Pin buffer is defined as the shortest line from the Pin the VAL line. Again, the lower the VAL angle, the shorter the Pin buffer is.

At this point, you have done nothing different with a dual angle vs a MB/PIN to PAP layout with Pin buffer.

Now comes the interesting part. Mo has taken all the High, Med and Low track layouts and included other parameters (speed, axis tilt, axis rotation, rev rate) and has come up with with a theory as to what angles work best. This isn't science, its just his opinion on what would work best for various styles of bowlers. Yes, it is a very good starting point and yes, Mo is a very smart person. All Mo is trying to create is a simplified method to laying out bowling balls. There is no magic or science, just his experience. He is trying to make is simple for all Pro Shops to understand. BUT, when you guess at the starting parameters you are not following his instructions. This method is based on ACCURATE starting parameters.

I doubt very seriously if you would go to bowlingchat and tell the folks that you are guessing at the starting parameters for you bowlers when doing a Dual Angle layout. I am sure, your REP points would go down a bunch.

John, I am not picking on you, just trying to say that I feel most Pro Shops do it your way. Collecting accurate information for every bowler is very time comsuming and if you have a busy shop, I would feel it would be almost impossible.

Edited by Stan on 2/25/2012 at 9:19 AM

bowler001 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 25, 2012, 11:11:02 AM »

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Are you trying to say storms system doesn't require you to know anything about someones game before drilling them a ball? Either system still requires you to know what type of bowler you are dealing with. I think the point is that the storm system doesn't explain what different mb to pap distances do or what different pin to pap distances do. The dual angle system makes it very clear. Also, you're not required to know all specs exact with the dual angle system. While some things it's important to be exact like tilt, it can simply be gotten with an armadillo. Other things like speed and rotation you need to know a range....high, low, etc. same with speed and revs, just in comparison to each other.

Also, it seems you don't really even know how to properly use the dual angle system. Your example of a zero degree layout is a moot point since a zero degree layout isn't even in the recommended range of drill angles. If it were, with a 4" pin to pap, a zero degree drill angle would put the mb 1.5" past the bowlers VAL. Far from standard "mb" location as you put it. I can find multiple combinations of drill and Val angles that put the mb 2-3/4" from the pap and they will all do different things. That's the point.

Doug Morton
Xclusive Pro Shop - Anchorage, Alaska

Brunswick Regional Staff

The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.

Stan · « **Reply #22 on:** February 25, 2012, 12:09:33 PM »

Also, it seems you don't really even know how to properly use the dual angle system. Your example of a zero degree layout is a moot point since a zero degree layout isn't even in the recommended range of drill angles.

This was just example used to show that the drill angle is the same as MB to PAP. I gave you a starting point for the MB and tried to explain (guess not too good) that when you make the drill angle larger, you increase the MB to PAP.

Doug, standard MB to Pin is 6 3/4 inches. If you make the drill angle zero (yes, I know its not in the acceptable range, again only for this explanation) with a 4 inch pin to pap you will have 2 3/4 inches from the MB to the PAP. Not sure what you are talking about.

I am not trying to argue with you or anyone else. My understanding of Dual Angles is you should be precise with you customers specs in order to use the system properly. That was and still is my only point. If I am wrong with this assumption and guessing is acceptable, then so be it.

Edited by Stan on 2/25/2012 at 1:17 PM

Edited by Stan on 2/25/2012 at 1:18 PM

bowler001 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 25, 2012, 12:42:19 PM »

I'm aware that mb is 6-3/4 from the pin. What I'm saying is yes, a zero degree layout puts the mb 2-3/4 from pap with a 4" pin to pap, but it also locates it way past the Val. You made it sound like that was a standard type layout so i misinderstood that. The point is you could have the mb 2-3/4" from the pap in a myriad of different locations. Thats the difference.

Doug Morton
Xclusive Pro Shop - Anchorage, Alaska

Brunswick Regional Staff

The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.

JohnP · « **Reply #24 on:** February 25, 2012, 04:13:42 PM »

Stan opened a topic at bowlingchat on this subject, the link is below if you'd like to follow it. -- JohnP

http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5265

completebowler · « **Reply #25 on:** February 27, 2012, 04:10:14 AM »

You do not need exact numbers to be able to use the dual angle method for layouts. You need to understand basics about laying out bowling balls and incorporate them into the system. Yes, exact numbers make the system that much more accurate, but they do not make or break a sucessful layout.

Also, the dual angle method gives us exact numbers to duplicate layouts from one ball to another. Guy comes in and loves the way his Mission works and wants the the Mission X to do the same thing for heavier volume. Great...grab the numbers and put it on the new ball.

Another guy comes in and says he loves his Nano...but thinks it rolls a bit too early. Great! Grab the numbers, tweak them for more length, and whammo!! A Nano that gets through the front better.

It would be impossible to take the specs off of every bowler. Some of the best drillers I know don't even operate inside a center. To say they are doing their customers a disservice by laying out stuff from their extensive years of knowledge is b.s. in my book.

Stan wrote on 2/24/2012 9:48 PM:
John, you know the old saying. "Garbage in, Garbage out".

If you can not accurately obtain the bowlers specs, then it does not matter what system you use. You are just guessing on what the layout should be and also doing a disservce to your customers who think they are getting a "True" dual angle drilling based on their style of play.

As I said before, even in bowlingchat, too many pro shops and even bowlers are guessing on their specs. That is the downside of the Dual Angle method.

ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI

All Star Bowling & Trophy

proform · « **Reply #26 on:** June 24, 2012, 11:06:17 AM »

Quote from: completebowler on February 27, 2012, 04:10:14 AM

<div>You do not need exact numbers to be able to use the dual angle method for layouts. You need to understand basics about laying out bowling balls and incorporate them into the system. Yes, exact numbers make the system that much more accurate, but they do not make or break a sucessful layout.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Also, the dual angle method gives us exact numbers to duplicate layouts from one ball to another. Guy comes in and loves the way his Mission works and wants the the Mission X to do the same thing for heavier volume. Great...grab the numbers and put it on the new ball.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Another guy comes in and says he loves his Nano...but thinks it rolls a bit too early. Great! Grab the numbers, tweak them for more length, and whammo!! A Nano that gets through the front better.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It would be impossible to take the specs off of every bowler. Some of the best drillers I know don't even operate inside a center. To say they are doing their customers a disservice by laying out stuff from their extensive years of knowledge is b.s. in my book.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size: 10pt"><em>
<fieldset><legend><a href="javascript:UserProfile(6643);">Stan</a> wrote on 2/24/2012 9:48 PM:</legend><em>
<div>John, you know the old saying. "Garbage in, Garbage out".</div>

<div> </div>

<div>If you can not accurately obtain the bowlers specs, then it does not matter what system you use. You are just guessing on what the layout should be and also doing a disservce to your customers who think they are getting a "True" dual angle drilling based on their style of play.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>As I said before, even in bowlingchat, too many pro shops and even bowlers are guessing on their specs. That is the downside of the Dual Angle method.</div>

</em></fieldset></em></div></blockquote>

<div><font color="red">ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI</font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><a title="All Star Bowling & Trophy" href="http://www.facebook.com/allstarbowlingtrophy?ref=ts">All Star Bowling & Trophy</a></div>

-----------------------
Completebowler,
I use the Dual Angle Method myself but your statement is not correct. Your opinion stated is that the Dual Angle Method allows for adjustments in designed ball motion designs that by the driller that the Storm Method does not account for. That is not correct. Adjusting the MB to PAP distance(Storm Method) is equal to adjusting Drill Angles(Dual Angle Method). Adjusting the Pin Buffer(Storm Method) is the same as adjusting the VAL Angle(Dual Angle Method). The real only difference is 4x4 3"buffer doesn't sound as techy as 45x4x45. Still if bowler comes in and liked his Nano drilled 4x4 3"buffer, the driller can duplicate the same 4x4 3" buffer on anther Nano. Likewise if bowler comes in and feels that Nano "moves too early" the 4x4 3"buffer can be adjusted just as effectively as the 45x4x45 to create the desired adjustmed ball design. The Dual Angle Method is what I choose to utilize but I would be just as effective creating desired ball motion if utilizing the Storm Pin Buffer Method.

Juggernaut · « **Reply #27 on:** June 24, 2012, 01:26:27 PM »

There is an easy way to solve this.

1. Strict limits on RG(2.6 or higher) and DIFF(.20 or lower).
2. Limit durometer readings to 79 and higher.
3. Limit porosity to levels 1/2 todays levels.
4. Limit COF to pre-1980 levels
5. Outlaw pin out balls
6. Outlaw drillings with cg more than 2" from grip center
7. Outlaw weightholes, except as NEEDED to adjust back to "legal" static weights
8. No weightholes more than 1" from pap.

I KNOW, I KNOW, it's not ever going to happen, so I don't need a sermon on the subject, but it would make things much simpler.

bowlingdude01 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 24, 2012, 04:30:06 PM »

there is no easy to solve this problem in my eyes usbc or whomever can do what ever they want to the rg and the diff.as far dual angle layout goes you do need exacat # or yournot even going to be close to the reaction you are looking for. W all know this layout method was created to be more accurate laying out a bowling ball but this is just mho

Author Topic: Understanding drillings (Read 23990 times)

pba300900

Understanding drillings

spmcgivern

Re: Understanding drillings

Stan

Re: Understanding drillings

JohnP

Re: Understanding drillings

Stan

Re: Understanding drillings

Stan

Re: Understanding drillings

bowler001

Re: Understanding drillings

Stan

Re: Understanding drillings

bowler001

Re: Understanding drillings

JohnP

Re: Understanding drillings

completebowler

Re: Understanding drillings

proform

Re: Understanding drillings

Juggernaut

Re: Understanding drillings

bowlingdude01

Re: Understanding drillings