win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....  (Read 15372 times)

pjr300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1487
  • Live from the Bowling Capital of the World!
Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« on: February 26, 2009, 10:15:00 AM »

Looking for advice.... I generally use a 4x4 layout on much of my gear. However, I have been reading a lot about layouts that consider "pin buffer" as part of the drill, which is a concept new to me.

Also, after reading the RotoGrip Asymentricial Drilling booklet, they call a 5x3 layout with a 2" pin buffer something that "produces a higher entry angle on many lane conditions."  

So, my question is about how the reaction of 5x3 layout compares in the real world to a 4x4 stack... any help is appreciated!

I am 5 1/4, 1/4" up, 300 rpm, 17 mph.

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile
pjr300
Specs and Transaction history in my profile...

 

JustRico

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2652
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2009, 06:31:58 PM »
Pin buffer can be used in 2 ways. The original pin buffer was so that the bow tie ended up above the middle finger and the track flared properly around the gripping holes. It generally was a line that would run from the PAP through the ring finger and where it disects the track.
In today's terms it refers to keeping the pin far enough away from the VAL, making sure that the pin is kept inside the VAL, so not to cause back flaring.

A 4 X 4 is a layout that would be a higher flare potential reactionm generally creating an earlier, smoother reaction on the lane.
A 5 X 3 is one that will cause a lesser amount of flare, creating more length than the 4 X 4 just taking flare potential into consideration. The 2" buffer means that it is placed 2" off the VAL. A pin farther away from the PAP generally creates a longer path to the pocket or a later/faster response to the friction and by placing it farther up, which should result in placing the pin 2" off the VAL.

Hope this makes sense.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

Edited on 2/26/2009 7:35 PM
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
...where knowledge creates striking results...
BowlTEc on facebook...www.iBowlTec.com

Dan Belcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3954
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2009, 06:45:49 PM »
In the pin buffer layout system that Storm advocates, the pin buffer is just the horizontal distance between pin and VAL, which determines how quickly the ball responds to friction (or how angular the motion is at the breakpoint).  A shorter pin buffer from the VAL to the pin will make the ball more angular, while further distances will make the ball transition more slowly and arch more.  It's a more accurate method of choosing pin up/pin down.

A 5x3 layout with a 1" pin buffer will result in the pin being placed higher and closer to the VAL, while a 5x3 layout with a 3" pin buffer will place the pin further away from the VAL and lower.  Both will be lower-flare layouts on symmetrical cored balls, so both will get a little more length and backend with slightly less overall hook than a 4x4 layout ball, but the one with the 1" pin buffer will be more skid/snap while the one with a 3" pin buffer will roll off the spot.

You can read detailed instructions how to use this method here by clicking on the Drilling Procedure link.

Edited on 2/26/2009 7:45 PM

pjr300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1487
  • Live from the Bowling Capital of the World!
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2009, 06:57:04 PM »

Thanks! That helps....

I am finding a gap in my arsonal. The Cell (4x4) is too strong for the house conditions, and, at least for the first few few games, the No Mercy Whupn will skate a bit until there's some breakdown.

I wonder if a strong pearl (such as Hot Sauce, Cell Pearl) with a 3x4 layout would work. The 3" pin may be earlier be early which could help in fresher oil.

--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile
pjr300
Specs and Transaction history in my profile...

JustRico

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2652
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2009, 07:41:01 PM »
Surface is going to dictate more than pin placement. If you are looking for something on the fresh, you are better off with a solid such as the HyRoad or Rattler and adjust the surface. Also you do not want a too strong of a layout as it may flare out or not react in the back end. I would go with a 5" pin to PAP and place the pin under the fingers. Place the CG far enough in the positive quandrant, so if you need to add a weight hole to adjust the reaction after drilling.
Try to finish with 3/4 oz positive and 1/4 oz thumb. These finishing statics will pretty much allow a weight hole straight across for more back end or one down the VAL for earlier and more overall.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
...where knowledge creates striking results...
BowlTEc on facebook...www.iBowlTec.com

pjr300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1487
  • Live from the Bowling Capital of the World!
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2009, 08:15:55 PM »

Thank you!!
--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile
pjr300
Specs and Transaction history in my profile...

Jay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1312
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2009, 01:56:15 AM »
Quick question.  On a drilled ball, if you find your VAL, what part of it is used for determining the pin buffer?  Is it the spot that interects a line parallel to the midline and through the pin or something like that?

JustRico

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2652
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2009, 07:22:59 AM »
The VAL is the vertical axis line and runs vertically up from the PAP. If your PAP is 5 1/2"> 1/2"^, the VAL would be along the 1/2"^ number.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
...where knowledge creates striking results...
BowlTEc on facebook...www.iBowlTec.com

JohnP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5819
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2009, 07:30:45 PM »
quote:
Quick question. On a drilled ball, if you find your VAL, what part of it is used for determining the pin buffer? Is it the spot that interects a line parallel to the midline and through the pin or something like that?


Find the closest distance between the pin and the VAL, that's the pin buffer in Storm's system.  --  JohnP

J_w73

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2009, 08:53:23 PM »
PJR300
If you want something different than you are used to, try a 5 x (4 1/2 to 5) with a 2 inch pin buffer
You have enough rpms to pull it off.  I imagine your 4 x 4 is fairly early and pretty smooth... the 5 x 5 layout will get the ball down the lane and (depending on the ball) be pretty angular on the backend... more skid flip than you are used to..
probably work best on a medium oil ball..black widow pearl is a perfect candidate..

Do you find your ball burning up.. ? Do you bowl on heavier oil ?
looks like you have a fairly high track and similar stats as me..
I have found anything under 4 inches doesn't work for me as it is just too strong of a mb location...
check out this Morich guide.. I think it is a precursor to the dual angle technique but I like the added part about the track diameter and where you should put the mb location...

https://www.buddiesproshop.com/36/Asymetrical_Layout_Guide.htm




--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

350 RPM, 17 MPH

pjr300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1487
  • Live from the Bowling Capital of the World!
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2009, 06:42:10 AM »

J_w73, thx for the reply.   My BW and No Mercy seem to be nearing the end of their usefulness as a sold, so to the polisher they go for use on breakdown. It's my 3rd BW, and this one does not have that many games... but I wonder if the local houses are just using more oil. I'd score well with a BW in these houses last year.. now, seems like over-under.

Burning up? maybe, but more like carrydown I think, and just can't get a clean reaction. My teammates with more hand are using a Hot Sauce, and they are deeper... another with a Sauce is deeper too. I am OK by the 2nd or even 3rd game with the BW.

I am thinking of a Virtual gravity.... I like the layout suggestion.
--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile
pjr300
Specs and Transaction history in my profile...

J_w73

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2009, 10:33:48 AM »
quote:

J_w73, thx for the reply.   My BW and No Mercy seem to be nearing the end of their usefulness as a sold, so to the polisher they go for use on breakdown. It's my 3rd BW, and this one does not have that many games... but I wonder if the local houses are just using more oil. I'd score well with a BW in these houses last year.. now, seems like over-under.

Burning up? maybe, but more like carrydown I think, and just can't get a clean reaction. My teammates with more hand are using a Hot Sauce, and they are deeper... another with a Sauce is deeper too. I am OK by the 2nd or even 3rd game with the BW.

I am thinking of a Virtual gravity.... I like the layout suggestion.
--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile


That is sort of the same thing I was seeing with my strong mb cell..wouldn't get down the lane when the heads dried up.. then if I put more speed on it it would just skate on the backend...With alot of flare and a strong mb you need a fairly heavy amount of oil in the front for the ball to do what it needs to do on the backend
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

350 RPM, 17 MPH

pjr300

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1487
  • Live from the Bowling Capital of the World!
Re: Layout comparison: 4x4 stack vs a 5x3 with 2" pin buffer....
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2009, 01:37:40 PM »

I hear ya... but we're bowling on a fresh shot, and the oil is out there.  I think the ball is dying.... in my practice house I don't see it.... probably because it's wood. But when I get on synthetics, It's a problem.


--------------------
pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World

specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile
pjr300
Specs and Transaction history in my profile...