Author Topic: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing.. (Read 8120 times)

J_w73 · « **on:** April 23, 2009, 11:25:12 AM »

Just want to throw this out there and see what people think..
My thinking/theory about the whole pin buffer angle to the VAL lingo.
I always see threads about pin buffer and angle to the VAL and what it does for ball reaction. It isnt the actual Pin buffer distance or angle to the VAL that MAKES the ball do what it does.. it is where the pin is in relation to the finger and thumbholes.... It is the holes that are taking weight out of the core and changing the RG and differential and making the ball react the way it does..
a pin closer to the VAL will remove the majority/average of the weight from the mid section of the core thus raising the RG and allowing the ball to retain more energy for the backend or when it encounters friction....
a lower pin or pin farther from the VAL will have the holes take the majority/average of the weight out of the top of the core thus shortening the overall core and lowering the RG and allowing the ball to rev up sooner and expend it energy sooner...
both of these also change the rg differential but I haven't come to a clear conclusion as to how that affects the reaction in these cases.. I think it has to do with a combo of the pin to pap.. example.. a skid flip layout to me is usually a longer pin to pap 5" plus .. this lowers the flare..and raises the RG already.. now put the pin up close to the VAL allows weight to be taken out of the side of the core...it does increase the diff and the flare but I don't think it is enough to make the ball hook early.. the higher RG overpowers the increase in rg diff and flare that is created.

I lay out my own equipment. When laying out some of my stronger layouts I actually use the thumb hole distance from the pin as a factor in my layouts..
This is basically the same concept as Morich's double thumb layout..
gets you a really strong hooking ball.. at leverage the core is already in an unstable position and at its highest flaring potention.. now when you have a thumb hole 6 3/4 away and a weight hole 6 3/4 away you are taking alot of weight out of the side and thus increasing the RG differential even more and increasing the flare making the ball want to hook more... in this case you are also increasing the RG but at this pin position I think the rg diff and flare overpowers whatever raise in RG was created..

I am not a driller and just a guy trying to learn ball dynamics.. I don't claim to know everything and always looking to learn.. This is just where I am right now in my thinking and everything I have learned seems to support it.

I'm sure some people will strongly disagree. Interested in all replies.

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #1 on:** April 23, 2009, 07:31:48 PM »

How the weight drilled out by the holes alters the RG and differential is just part of the equation. Think back to the even more basics of ball reaction. The pin is the marker for the top of the core. Changing the pin location changes the orientation of the core, which alters when and where and how it flares. The core wants to eventually return to a stable position, and how it does this is determined by how it is oriented when the ball begins rolling down the lane. If you took a ball with no holes and rolled it, the pin buffer from the VAL will greatly alter when, where, and how the ball hooks. The holes you drill into the ball and into the core will just alter the nature of the core's natural tendancies.

J_w73 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 23, 2009, 07:40:49 PM »

quote:
How the weight drilled out by the holes alters the RG and differential is just part of the equation. Think back to the even more basics of ball reaction. The pin is the marker for the top of the core. Changing the pin location changes the orientation of the core, which alters when and where and how it flares. The core wants to eventually return to a stable position, and how it does this is determined by how it is oriented when the ball begins rolling down the lane. If you took a ball with no holes and rolled it, the pin buffer from the VAL will greatly alter when, where, and how the ball hooks. The holes you drill into the ball and into the core will just alter the nature of the core's natural tendancies.

I'm glad you brought up throwing a ball with no holes.. I would think that if you threw a ball with no holes(on a throwbot) that the only thing that would matter in the reation would be the pin to PAP distance(or position of the core in relation to the rotation).. it wouldn't matter where the pin was in relation to the proposed VAL.. the ball would still roll with the same reation regardless..
are you agreeing with this or saying something different.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #3 on:** April 23, 2009, 07:50:13 PM »

I would assume the pin to VAL location would make a difference in the shape of the reaction. Yes, the pin to PAP distance is going to affect how much the ball flares and how long it takes to return to a stable position. However, the pin to VAL relationship should also have an effect on the reaction shape simply because it's still altering the core's position from the stable rotation point it wants to be in at the finish. The caveat of course is that I'm not a throwbot (sadly) so I can't say I've ever tried this experiment to be sure.

bluerrpilot · « **Reply #4 on:** April 23, 2009, 08:14:48 PM »

I am in no way a guru on dynamics but this is how I see it.

The ball in its motion is still trying to find a preferred spin axis or stable point. How the core is tipped or situated from the beginning of its journey to its end in relation to the bowlers release or PAP is what dictates its rotation/roll characteristics and its ability to flare. That in combination with the cover and surface prep helps to determine how it responds to the lane.

--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

J_w73 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 24, 2009, 01:15:43 AM »

quote:
I would assume the pin to VAL location would make a difference in the shape of the reaction. Yes, the pin to PAP distance is going to affect how much the ball flares and how long it takes to return to a stable position. However, the pin to VAL relationship should also have an effect on the reaction shape simply because it's still altering the core's position from the stable rotation point it wants to be in at the finish. The caveat of course is that I'm not a throwbot (sadly) so I can't say I've ever tried this experiment to be sure.

just logically if you visualize it it wouldn't matter where the pin is in relation to the VAL if the ball doesn't have any holes.. the ball spins about its PAP.. say the pin is put in a position at release so that it is 3 3/8 from the PAP.. with out holes it will not matter where the pin is at in relation to the throw bot grip at release.. so that it is 3 3/8 from the PAP...
any spot with the pin 3 3/8 from the PAP has the same core dynamics during rotation with out the holes.. that is my point .. it isnt the VAL that causes the change in ball dynamics.. it is the holes that changes the core that changes the ball dynamics...
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2009, 01:18:13 AM »

quote:
I am in no way a guru on dynamics but this is how I see it.

The ball in its motion is still trying to find a preferred spin axis or stable point. How the core is tipped or situated from the beginning of its journey to its end in relation to the bowlers release or PAP is what dictates its rotation/roll characteristics and its ability to flare. That in combination with the cover and surface prep helps to determine how it responds to the lane.

--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

agreed.. pin on PAP.. stable.. Pin 6 3/4 for PAP .. stable... PIN 3 3/8 from PAP most unstable .. most flare..
but if there isn't any holes the only thing that will determine what the ball does in terms of layout is the Pin to PAP distance... or the position of the core in relation to the rotation at release..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Jay · « **Reply #7 on:** April 24, 2009, 03:37:35 AM »

You know what I don't like, is the fact that 3 3/8" from the PAP flares the most which makes the ball hook the most and the earliest. If I wanted a ball to hook more evenly but not that much there's not a lot of options besides placing the pin low because even shorter pin distances go longer than leverage. If anything I just stated is false, I apologize, but that's what I think/thought.

Back on topic, I think I agree with your interpretation of the VAL placement. I don't really see the way that the gripping holes drilled on top of the core lowers the RG(or keeps it low?) or drilled on the side raises the RG. I'm not scientifically smart, but it makes sense when you consider the fact that the pin near the VAL(fingers on side of core) is supposed to increase length/backend and the pin away from the VAL(fingers near pin/top of core) is supposed to create a more even hooking reaction.

bluerrpilot · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2009, 08:53:32 AM »

quote:
but if there isn't any holes the only thing that will determine what the ball does in terms of layout is the Pin to PAP distance... or the position of the core in relation to the rotation at release..

Thats fine if the ball only has a single axis plane..
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"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

bluerrpilot · « **Reply #9 on:** April 24, 2009, 08:57:39 AM »

And how is laying out a ball based on the thumb distance from your pin basically the same as a double thumb layout? Is that like saying my 4 runner is basically the same as a corvette because they both have 4 wheels and rear wheel drive ?

...On second thought, please donâ€™t explain that one..
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

Edited on 4/24/2009 8:58 AM

khamûl · « **Reply #10 on:** April 24, 2009, 09:06:25 AM »

quote:
a pin closer to the VAL will remove the majority/average of the weight from the mid section of the core thus raising the RG and allowing the ball to retain more energy for the backend or when it encounters friction....
a lower pin or pin farther from the VAL will have the holes take the majority/average of the weight out of the top of the core thus shortening the overall core and lowering the RG and allowing the ball to rev up sooner and expend it energy sooner...

You have these kinda backwards. Drilling holes always raises the rg along the plane that the holes are drilled. So, drilling into the side of the core concentrates more mass along the X axis, lowering rgs along X and raising rgs near Y. This causes an increase in diff and intermediate diff and generally a lower overall average rg. Drilling with the pin lower in the grip raises rgs near the X axis and does not change Y values much, keeping the ending diffs & intermediate diffs on the lower end of the spectrum.

Pin placement is just rg contour management.
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good luck and good bowling.

insidedrive · « **Reply #11 on:** April 24, 2009, 09:18:39 AM »

While the weight of the finger holes coming out of the ball does have an effect, it is not the entirety of the equation.

One thing to remember that's extremely important is the bowlers track style and PAP. With the track and PAP measurements creating a VAL line it gives you the area of the ball where the Pin placement will have the most, or the least amount of effect on overall ball reaction. One thing to remember is that bowlers with a very low track, < 4 over, will end up having drillings that place the pin closer to the fingers and slightly above or slightly below. By drilling the pin further from the fingers on a track that is low or a PAP that is down can give undesired reaction because it does not match up with that bowlers PAP and Track lines. Therefore distance from fingers can't truly be used as a rule of thumb.

Think about it in terms of placement of the core. By looking at the track and val of the bowler you can actually see how the tilt of the core (placement of the pin) will be drastically different. The drilling of the finger holes is just a secondary effect on the ball that results in a balance hole or no balance hole.

It's similar to doing a dual thumb drilling, the secondary thumb hole does not determine the characteristics of the reaction, it can only enhance or moderately effect it. The same is with the fingers. The pin placement with relation to the val and drilling angle determines what the ball will do, then the finger and weight holes will be adjusting differentials and can be changed with deeper drilling holes, balance holes, X-out hole drillings, etc.

J_w73 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 24, 2009, 09:34:24 AM »

quote:
And how is laying out a ball based on the thumb distance from your pin basically the same as a double thumb layout? Is that like saying my 4 runner is basically the same as a corvette because they both have 4 wheels and rear wheel drive ?

...On second thought, please donâ€™t explain that one..
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

Edited on 4/24/2009 8:58 AM

I am just saying that the pricinpal is the same.. I pick a strong pin position.. say leverage or 4 inches to PAP.. then I make sure the thumb is 6 3/4 from the Pin.. that is essentiall what the double thumb is doing .. putting two big weight voids at 6 3/4 from the pin to enhance the reaction.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 24, 2009, 09:46:23 AM »

quote:
quote:
a pin closer to the VAL will remove the majority/average of the weight from the mid section of the core thus raising the RG and allowing the ball to retain more energy for the backend or when it encounters friction....
a lower pin or pin farther from the VAL will have the holes take the majority/average of the weight out of the top of the core thus shortening the overall core and lowering the RG and allowing the ball to rev up sooner and expend it energy sooner...

You have these kinda backwards. Drilling holes always raises the rg along the plane that the holes are drilled. So, drilling into the side of the core concentrates more mass along the X axis, lowering rgs along X and raising rgs near Y. This causes an increase in diff and intermediate diff and generally a lower overall average rg. Drilling with the pin lower in the grip raises rgs near the X axis and does not change Y values much, keeping the ending diffs & intermediate diffs on the lower end of the spectrum.

Pin placement is just rg contour management.
--------------------
good luck and good bowling.

....so you are saying that if you drill into the side of the core that doesn't raise the RG.. ok.. I can maybe get that..not the overal RG but I think you said it... it would increase the differential .. and maybe that is what I was trying to describe.. the core would now have more weight to the outside since you took weight from the center... let me know if I am making sense or still wrong

if I have a core and make it shorter on the top and bottom.. haven't I just lowered the RG of the core compared to the original.. and If I have a core and remove a bunch of weight and mass from the midlane aren't I moving what weight the core has more to the outside which is raising the RG..??

my point was that it is the holes that are the THING that is ACTUALLY changing what the ball does.. it isn't this VAL line or position to it that is doing the reaction..

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 24, 2009, 09:48:50 AM »

quote:
While the weight of the finger holes coming out of the ball does have an effect, it is not the entirety of the equation.

One thing to remember that's extremely important is the bowlers track style and PAP. With the track and PAP measurements creating a VAL line it gives you the area of the ball where the Pin placement will have the most, or the least amount of effect on overall ball reaction. One thing to remember is that bowlers with a very low track, < 4 over, will end up having drillings that place the pin closer to the fingers and slightly above or slightly below. By drilling the pin further from the fingers on a track that is low or a PAP that is down can give undesired reaction because it does not match up with that bowlers PAP and Track lines. Therefore distance from fingers can't truly be used as a rule of thumb.

Think about it in terms of placement of the core. By looking at the track and val of the bowler you can actually see how the tilt of the core (placement of the pin) will be drastically different. The drilling of the finger holes is just a secondary effect on the ball that results in a balance hole or no balance hole.

It's similar to doing a dual thumb drilling, the secondary thumb hole does not determine the characteristics of the reaction, it can only enhance or moderately effect it. The same is with the fingers. The pin placement with relation to the val and drilling angle determines what the ball will do, then the finger and weight holes will be adjusting differentials and can be changed with deeper drilling holes, balance holes, X-out hole drillings, etc.

For sure.. Pin distance from the PAP is the number 1 factor.. I am just saying the holes fine tune the reaction.. like you said. much the way a weight hole does..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Author Topic: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing.. (Read 8120 times)

J_w73

VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

Dan Belcher

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

Dan Belcher

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

bluerrpilot

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

Jay

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bluerrpilot

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

bluerrpilot

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

khamûl

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

insidedrive

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J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..