Post by: Doug Sterner on November 21, 2010, 12:56:47 AM
What''s the overall preference for getting balls to work on the house conditions for bowlers with stronger releases?
What combinations seem to perform best across the country?
weak core, weak cover, strong layout?
weak core, strong cover, weak layout?
strong core, weak cover, weak layout?
others?
Just curious what the consensus might be....
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Doug Sterner
Doug''''s Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
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Edited on 11/21/2010 11:12 AM
Post by: Cobalt Bomb on November 21, 2010, 09:37:31 AM
Post by: Doug Sterner on November 21, 2010, 10:09:10 AM
My home house has a lotof friction (40 yr old wood lanes) but they have a decent amount of oil in the middle of the lane (55 units) but the pattern is pretty short (last load of oil applied to the brush at 32 feet and buffed to like 38).
So the common local perception is to get a ball that goes really long (due to the short pattern)and on that responds very strong to the friction off the corner. However the heavy volume in the center COULD dictate a high flaring pin position but too much flare with too much coverstock and the ball will flat 10 all day. Put the pin too far from the PAP and you'll come in behind the headpin.
I personally prefer using a weaker ball with a stronger layout as opposed to a stronger ball with a weaker layout. If I am having an awesome day the strong ball will give me more strikes and will work better. However the amount of "forgiveness" in such a ball is usually significantly less than the weaker ball drilled strong.
As I said just looking to see how others conquer the scenario.
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
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www.dougsproshop.net
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Post by: Cobalt Bomb on November 21, 2010, 10:30:28 AM
1)Outside line, sanded urethane, strong drill.
2)Weak/length drill, med-strong core/cover matte finish, outside line
3)Length/Flip drill, med-strong pearl,possibly asym, moderate shine to matte finish, steep angle toward gutter through the fronts to the 2-3 board just past the pattern(if the topography will allow).
4)Strong cover, weak drill, sanded to matte, ride the oil line and not cover too many boards.
Post by: Doug Sterner on November 21, 2010, 10:58:38 AM
Personally I am having the best luck in this house with these 2 balls....
Backlash Blue/Silver....60x4x60, small low hole, 2000 Siaair
Tropical Heat Hybrid....40x5-1/2x60, no hole, 3000 Siaair
Honorable mention:
Natural.....65x4-1/2x45, no hole, 2000 Siaair, light Sauce
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
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Post by: David Lee Yskes on November 21, 2010, 10:39:50 PM
1- urethane Natural
2- GravityShift
3- BarbedWire
4- Invasion
http://coolluvr4u1976.bowlspace.com/gallery/view_gallery.one?gal_id=1
look @ my Invasion to see how it''s drilled it really gives me a nice reaction, its polished @ 4k
My Natural is drilled with the pin under the ring finger and CG @ about 50degree''s, the Gravityshift is just a stacked drilling with the Pin right next to the ring finger.. and the barbed wire is a Pin down 5x4 drilling or close to it.
My Barbedwire is nice on a house shot, but for some reason, carry is hit or miss, i can slam the pocket and left stone 9''s or 10''s all day long.. My G-shift gives me a stronger reaction but gets down the lane nicely... And My Natural is for when nothing else seems to work lol...
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" Lift Your Skirt Grab Your Balls and Learn How to Bowl "
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or look for me on facebook
Edited on 11/21/2010 11:41 PM
Post by: dizzyfugu on November 22, 2010, 12:48:10 AM
My plan is to have a good match of all components from the start, and not force a ball to be something that it is NOT by design.
Coming back to the initial question, I'd tend to take an overall weaker ball package and drill it stronger. Giving a general answer is IMHO very difficult, because core/coverstock combos can react VERY differently today, from very smooth at the wet/dry edges to totally flippy. So, I'd rather take a ball further down the lane, just to make sure the layout supports a good breakpoint control.
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DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: Doug Sterner on November 22, 2010, 09:25:00 PM
There is a local guy who has been drilling for a very long time but I don't see much coming out of his shop other than 2 basic layouts...pin at 1:30 with the cg in palm and the other is stacked.
Like I said...just looking for opinions and information to help better serve my customers :-)
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
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Post by: dizzyfugu on November 23, 2010, 03:38:52 AM
quote:
There is a local guy who has been drilling for a very long time but I don't see much coming out of his shop other than 2 basic layouts...pin at 1:30 with the cg in palm and the other is stacked.
Strangely, very similar case here, too. Basically any ball I see from a certain pro shop is drilled label - except for recent cases which showed something like a double thumb(!) layout on a couple of plagues that got sold in my club. Really strange, and the reason why I personally have my balls drilled elsewhere. That's not fool-proof, but "my" ball driller is open for discussion and suggestions, and I have the good feeling that I can rely on his expertise (and therewith learning a bit), instead of just having a ball punched up without comment. I think that this customer feedback is a vital thing for a pro shop.
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: bigz on November 23, 2010, 05:06:59 AM
hyroad-light/med
cell-med/heavy
ogre urethane-spares/fried shot
chris
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BIGZ-
BIG ON THE LANEZ!
GO STEELERS!!
Post by: TWOHAND834 on November 23, 2010, 06:20:09 AM
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: BackToBasics on November 23, 2010, 08:31:34 AM
The layout produces VERY minimal flare in the first part of the lane because of the long pin, but a good amount in the back part of the lane due to the weighthole. Put a piece of tape on the axis and watch it be steady but then really migrate downlane. This allows you to go with a stronger cover/core which helps with the read and also potential oil downlane. The long pin always prevents early hook in the track.
Whenever I suggest this layout, they always look at me and wonder if the ball will hook since most drillers around here just put the pin right of the ring finger. I always say trust me
Post by: BowlinStr8t on November 27, 2010, 10:44:09 PM
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My ball won't hook- Heck who am I kidding--It never does!!
Post by: charlest on November 28, 2010, 06:45:35 AM
I've done all 6:
Strong balls: drilled weak, medium and strong.
Weak balls: drilled weak, medium and strong.
I drill a ball based on the reaction I need or want, based on what I know about the ball and where I'm going to use it. I've recently drilled a Slingshot with a 5.5" pin to PAP and pin above the fingers, and drilled a Big Curve with the pin around 4" pin to PAP and MB in the strong position. Both balls worked great just that way.
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Post by: BackToBasics on November 28, 2010, 08:52:27 AM
quote:
I'd never follow a basic rule like "drill strong balls weak and weak balls strong." It makes no sense to me. Basic rules like that seem to come from people who do not want to think for more than 2 1/2 seconds..
I've done all 6:
Strong balls: drilled weak, medium and strong.
Weak balls: drilled weak, medium and strong.
I drill a ball based on the reaction I need or want, based on what I know about the ball and where I'm going to use it. I've recently drilled a Slingshot with a 5.5" pin to PAP and pin above the fingers, and drilled a Big Curve with the pin around 4" pin to PAP and MB in the strong position. Both balls worked great just that way.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Why the need to come off so crass? It has nothing to do with "thinking more than 2 1/2 seconds". When you have a combined drill and layout count well above 1000 you see trends in ball reaction. Sure, there are exceptions (like purposely getting the ball to overflare to control backend) but in my experience on the type of conditions that I've seen around the world, this basic rule works. But one thing that is missing is also the bowler's rev rate. So it is not just strong ball weak, it must be a strong release plus strong ball = weak drill. If a bowler comes in with a rev count 250 and below, of course you will not drill it weak, but the OP obviously stated "for bowlers with stronger releases"....
Post by: charlest on November 28, 2010, 09:22:13 AM
I was neither obtuse, insensitive nor stupid.
I stand by my opinion, whether the bowler has a strong release or a weak one.
If you have a different opinion, why not just state them, instead of denigrating mine. That IS rude, internet or not.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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Post by: BackToBasics on November 28, 2010, 09:48:14 AM
quote:
Crass? I beg your pardon.
I was neither obtuse, insensitive nor stupid.
I stand by my opinion, whether the bowler has a strong release or a weak one.
If you have a different opinion, why not just state them, instead of denigrating mine. That IS rude, internet or not.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
You don't think saying "Basic rules like that seem to come from people who do not want to think for more than 2 1/2 seconds" is insensitive? You could have simply stated that it didn't make sense to you and why.
Your posts oftentimes come off in that manner. You are a long time poster and I respect you tremendously but sometimes when there is an opinion different than yours you do not post them in a respectful manner. You were the first to denigrate others' opinions with the above quote. You have a wealth of information that is valuable to this site. I just think that the manner in which it is delivered can be improved.
My opinion is that majority of the time for strong handed bowlers, if the layout is too strong, it causes the ball to flare too much, too early and have less usability than if it were drilled weakly. The weaker drilled balls can be used on a wider variety of conditions AND for longer periods (i.e, bowlers do not have to switch off from it after a game). It makes it much easier to chase the oil and still have the recovery with longer pins because of the controlled flare.
Post by: Doug Sterner on November 28, 2010, 12:01:10 PM
Just wanted to know whether people thought a typical house bowler with a strong release would benefit more from a weaker ball drilled strong or a stronger ball drilled weak. No need for anyone to get their tidey whiteys in a bunch over who said what or what was said.
As stated before I am not a big fan of taking a strong ball, drilling it to go long and not flare too much and then going 4000 grit and polish to make it usable...just seems like the ball becomes very finicky and condition specific.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
RotoGrip Star Pro Shop
Turbo XTreme Dealer
Post by: charlest on November 28, 2010, 12:47:52 PM
quote:quote:
Crass? I beg your pardon.
I was neither obtuse, insensitive nor stupid.
I stand by my opinion, whether the bowler has a strong release or a weak one.
If you have a different opinion, why not just state them, instead of denigrating mine. That IS rude, internet or not.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
You don't think saying "Basic rules like that seem to come from people who do not want to think for more than 2 1/2 seconds" is insensitive? You could have simply stated that it didn't make sense to you and why.
Your posts oftentimes come off in that manner. You are a long time poster and I respect you tremendously but sometimes when there is an opinion different than yours you do not post them in a respectful manner. You were the first to denigrate others' opinions with the above quote. You have a wealth of information that is valuable to this site. I just think that the manner in which it is delivered can be improved.
My opinion is that majority of the time for strong handed bowlers, if the layout is too strong, it causes the ball to flare too much, too early and have less usability than if it were drilled weakly. The weaker drilled balls can be used on a wider variety of conditions AND for longer periods (i.e, bowlers do not have to switch off from it after a game). It makes it much easier to chase the oil and still have the recovery with longer pins because of the controlled flare.
1. Bowlers are not the easiest people to convince. Oftentimes, a 2x4 is needed when logic does not prevail. That was not for the sake of Doug but for the many who suggest that that rule be followed. I'd say that was a suggestion and not a rule. This is based on the idea that too many bowlers "WANT". They rarely "NEED".
2. Why do you need to reiterate your opinion and continue to denigrate mine. What we each have expressed is an opinion, as there is no proof, one way or the other.
Yes, the majority of the time a stronger release bowler will need a less than leverage pin and MB position. SO if a driller follows this "rule", how often will he be wrong and how many customers will he lose because he followed a "rule" blindly? I'd suggest the number or percentage will be high enough to affect his income. I still suggest that every case MUST be taken independently to meet the needs of THAT bowler (while still trying to make him/her happy and meet his "wants", if at all possible).
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Post by: charlest on November 28, 2010, 12:48:49 PM
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Post by: Doug Sterner on November 28, 2010, 08:48:16 PM
Now let me add another twist to the discussion....
Joe Average house bowler is using a ball...say a Hammer Jacked. Now he gets into a situation where the ball starts to hook up too quick and is going through the nose for him no matter where he stands or how he changes his release and speed. He obviously needs a different ball because he does not want to change the surface on this one as it works well when he bowls elsewhere.
Now....what's the preference? Do you drill up another Jacked and alter the layout and surface or do you drill up a Burn?
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
RotoGrip Star Pro Shop
Turbo XTreme Dealer
Post by: Mattski on November 28, 2010, 09:10:47 PM
But to sum up, weak strong and strong weak.
Post by: JohnP on November 29, 2010, 09:47:23 AM
quote:
Now....what's the preference? Do you drill up another Jacked and alter the layout and surface or do you drill up a Burn?
I would recommend a weaker ball, it might or might not be the Burn. -- JohnP
Post by: Doug Sterner on November 29, 2010, 08:30:13 PM
Your response is what I was looking for...opinions on what other people would do.
Thanks.
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
RotoGrip Star Pro Shop
Turbo XTreme Dealer
Post by: surface_solutions on November 30, 2010, 04:25:40 AM
Going mid range can help create area on a variety of patterns and THS's. That is our goal as shop operators, right? Give our customers the best chance to shoot some score...
I have found that bowlers in this classification don't have the necessary skills to line up on a THS and put 3 good games together. They don't seem to be able to control the strong stuff, drilled weak or strong, and most aren't able or willing play a much more direct line that strongly drilled weak balls dictate.
As for everybody above that, I feel it's a matter of opinion and when you average 200 plus in a few different enviroments you probably have a good idea of what works for you.
I personally like higher RG equipment, (2.54 and up)I can drop the pin to get earlier roll or keep it up for good length. Hand positions and surfaces help create shot shape and overall hook potential....
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Adam M Moreland
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