Author Topic: weight hole position for more backend (Read 6385 times)

J_w73 · « **on:** January 27, 2009, 09:58:27 AM »

Where would you put a weight hole if you wanted more backend on a ball with a 5 to 5.5 pin to pap? Pin just below bridge.
--------------------
16-17 mph
350-475 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
PBA Xperience ave 180
years bowling 22

Burak Natal · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2009, 12:57:15 AM »

In theory, 6-3/4 inches away from the pin, down on your VAL for a symmetrical ball. For an asymmetric one, generally, into the MB is the strongest.

Generally, higher pins with farther away pin-PAP distances (5 to 5-1/2 inches) incorporated with strong holes will result more backend reaction WITH the proper surface preparation.

Assuming that your case is symmetric, since your pin is not that much low, for the desired flare separation, you'll be OK if you put it 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 inches away from your PAP, down on your VAL.

Please also keep in mind that surface is the most important factor in reaction. Do not forget to adjust the surface accordingly.

Hope this helps,
--------------------
Regards,
Natal

J_w73 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2009, 01:08:55 AM »

So my mb is just to the right of the thumb hole..
I know that 6 3/4 from the pin will create the most change in dynamics because it will take weight out of the side of the core and increase the rg differential.. I was just unsure whether by the MB or past the PAP would create the more backend..
basically do I want to take weight out of the front/back of the core on the rotation or out of the side of the core near the axis while it is rotating.
which one will create more backend?
--------------------
16-17 mph
350-475 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
PBA Xperience ave 180
years bowling 22

Burak Natal · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2009, 01:41:33 AM »

J_w73,

If the core is symmetric and you put a weight hole 6-3/4 inches away from the pin, which you can call it equator (with respect to the primary pin), you create the highest asymmetry. As long as it is on the equator, it does not matter where it is in terms of reaction (being USBC legal is another story).

On the other hand, for asymmetric cores, generally, drilling into the MB will give you more flare than any other location.

If your ball is asymmetric, and you have enough statics to keep it USBC legal, place the x-hole INTO the MB. 3X1 hole is what I usually prefer.

With your layout, MB should be far enough to not hit the thumb hole but you may think pitching away if there is such a risk.
--------------------
Regards,
Natal

charlest · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2009, 03:14:30 AM »

Burak,

I thought that/those weight holes will give you more and earlier flare, not more backend?

(I thought) If the ball is dull or matte, the ball will hook earlier and not give you more backend???

(I thought) if the ball is polished, that extra flare will likely be saved more towards the backend, thus giving you more backend???

(I thought) if you had a dull or matte finish ball, if you wanted more backend, and more length, you'd put the weight hole 2" inside your PAP or 2" above your PAP to reduce the flare???
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Burak Natal · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2009, 04:17:46 AM »

charlest,

As you know far better than me, there are many "if"s and variables in bowling.

It's all about retaining/reserving energy for later move.

I just tried to put it in general. That's why I also stated:,
"Generally, higher pins with farther away pin-PAP distances (5 to 5-1/2 inches) incorporated with strong holes will result more backend reaction WITH the proper surface preparation".

I guess, I'd better added "polished-finer surface preparations" also..

That's why I added:
"Please also keep in mind that surface is the most important factor in reaction. Do not forget to adjust the surface accordingly."

For J_w73's case, I simply assumed that flare separation is too narrow. With a strong hole, incorporated with polished surface, more flare/flare separation will result more definite move down the lane.

Flare reducing holes do not increase backend reaction. All other variables being constant, they make balls longer and smoother. At least IME.
--------------------
Regards,
Natal

JustRico · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2009, 07:38:12 AM »

Surface dictates length first and foremost. Weight holes can alter back end reaction.

If you want more back end on any given ball reaction, if you go from the pin through the PAP and draw a line that continues past the PAP, on this line would create the strongest potential for angularity. Strongest would be 3 3/8" past PAP. Also, this is all dependant on the already amount of flare that the pin position is creating. If you have a leverage (3 3/8") pin, this is the optimum amount of flare potential a ball has, adding a weight hole would more than likely create over flare, thus killing back end reaction.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

J_w73 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2009, 09:48:55 AM »

quote:
Surface dictates length first and foremost. Weight holes can alter back end reaction.

If you want more back end on any given ball reaction, if you go from the pin through the PAP and draw a line that continues past the PAP, on this line would create the strongest potential for angularity. Strongest would be 3 3/8" past PAP. Also, this is all dependant on the already amount of flare that the pin position is creating. If you have a leverage (3 3/8") pin, this is the optimum amount of flare potential a ball has, adding a weight hole would more than likely create over flare, thus killing back end reaction.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

I agree with you if the pin to pap is 3 3/8 leverage.. then 3 3/8 will be the most dynamic because it is 6 3/4 from the pin right into the side of the core.
Just like Burac has stated.
I guess I will bring this up now. This whole weight hole theory of inside or beyond a PAP a certain amount of inches is wrong in my opinion. It is the distance the weight hole is from the pin that determines how much it affects the ball. I am almost certain of this looking at it from a physics standpoint..
It is the same reason a pin up ball will get down the lane and have more backend.. not because of top weight, it is because the finger holes are taking more weight out of the side of the core and thus increasing the RG ( and rg diff.. but not sure if that has anything to due with it yet). I agree with Burak on the 6 3/4 point. I am not sure if the position in relation to the rotation of the ball makes a difference though. Like I said I think a hole near the thumb or 6 3/4 from the pin and the PAP would have a different effect than a hole that is 6 3/4 from the pin through the PAP. Just not sure how yet.
--------------------
16-17 mph
350-475 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
PBA Xperience ave 180
years bowling 22

Edited on 1/28/2009 10:50 AM

Edited on 1/28/2009 10:51 AM

JustRico · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2009, 10:31:14 AM »

When I make a recommendation or give a suggestion, I try to take all the variables into consideration and give the best solution, based on experience in an real world scenario.
I agree that the strongest point from the pin, to place a weight hole, to create the strongest amount of asymmetry or reaction is 6 3/4", on a symmetrical core ball. Also, the strongest point to place a void from the PAP is 3 3/8". So the theorectical strongest placement for a weight hole is 6 3/4" from the pin and 3 3/8" from the PAP based upon the already inherent amount of flare. Flare can only be increased to a certain point before it becomes anti-productive.

--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

J_w73 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2009, 10:36:49 AM »

quote:
When I make a recommendation or give a suggestion, I try to take all the variables into consideration and give the best solution, based on experience in an real world scenario.
I agree that the strongest point from the pin, to place a weight hole, to create the strongest amount of asymmetry or reaction is 6 3/4", on a symmetrical core ball. Also, the strongest point to place a void from the PAP is 3 3/8". So the theorectical strongest placement for a weight hole is 6 3/4" from the pin and 3 3/8" from the PAP based upon the already inherent amount of flare. Flare can only be increased to a certain point before it becomes anti-productive.

--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

Agree'd. I wasn't trying to slam you at all. Sorry if you took it that way. I was just clarifying that if the pin is 6 inches from the pap or on the pap then 3 3/8 past the pap would not be the strongest weight hole
Would like to know what you mean by alot or increased flare being anti-productive ??
--------------------
16-17 mph
350-475 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
PBA Xperience ave 180
years bowling 22

JustRico · « **Reply #10 on:** January 28, 2009, 11:27:00 AM »

I actually did not take as a slam I was more or less agreeing with you...

As far as being anti-productive, it is called over-flaring. A ball has an optimum amount of flare that as it increases, so does the reacion. When it passes the perceived optimum amount, then the reaction can actually diminish, as the bow ties becomes less stable and moves, as the ball travels down the lane. When the bow tie is stable or tight, the track migrates around 3 spots. When the bow tie becomes unstable, the track or back flares actually migrates across earlier track lines of oil. This creates an unstable back end reaction or can resemble a carry down-type appearance.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

J_w73 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 28, 2009, 11:40:48 AM »

so is overflaring the way you describe it the same as the ball rolling out? I have heard the terms used interchangeably. I ask because I had a super flaring ball that didn't seem to be rolling out but it just wouldn't hook. Just rotate all the way down the lane. It would come back with about a 10 inch flare...
--------------------
16-17 mph
350-475 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
PBA Xperience ave 180
years bowling 22

River700 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2009, 11:33:16 PM »

J, that would be over flaring, any time that you have a ball that flares more than 7 inches it has the chance of roling out because it is using all it's energy in the front and middle part of the lane, creating loss of reaction, or hook. Hope that helps.
--------------------
If your going to bowl...bowl for fun or go home

JustRico · « **Reply #13 on:** January 30, 2009, 07:31:02 AM »

Roll out generally is in response to surface, flare out is when the ball loses all of it's lateral rotation.

As far as the ball over-flaring and reference to the total amount of flare. I do not believe that the total amount of flare is in direct association to if a ball will over flare. When RG diffs were in the .020-30's I know of a few guys that could flare the ball past 0 or all the way around without it over flaring.

Over flaring is not automatically a bad thing. Players with a high rev rate, on a flatter pattern, with crisp back ends, can use during the early part of transition to create carry down or calm the back ends down. On tour, you see more of the guys using trick layouts to calm down the front to back over reaction. On most house conditions, you see more of a over under side to side.

Over flaring into today's environment, is the cause for a majority of bowling balls rolling bad. Most operators today still lay out most bowling balls too strong or leverage and the ball is over flaring and expending it's energy before it is perceived and the ball does nothing in the back end, which is interpreted as bad reaction or the ball sucks.

Hopefully this makes sense...
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

Author Topic: weight hole position for more backend (Read 6385 times)

J_w73

weight hole position for more backend

Burak Natal

Re: weight hole position for more backend

J_w73

Re: weight hole position for more backend

Burak Natal

Re: weight hole position for more backend

charlest

Re: weight hole position for more backend

Burak Natal

Re: weight hole position for more backend

JustRico

Re: weight hole position for more backend

J_w73

Re: weight hole position for more backend

JustRico

Re: weight hole position for more backend

J_w73

Re: weight hole position for more backend

JustRico

Re: weight hole position for more backend

J_w73

Re: weight hole position for more backend

River700

Re: weight hole position for more backend

JustRico

Re: weight hole position for more backend