Author Topic: 6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers?? (Read 12721 times)

txbowler · « **on:** January 27, 2010, 01:49:17 AM »

What I am looking for is maximum length but minimal backend. I create all sorts of backend with the amount of hand I have and I don't have a lot of ball speed. (15 mph on backend readings).

I want to take something with a medium oil coverstock, drill it for max length, pin over fingers, but that usually means super hard snap on back end which, with my amount of hand, equals uncontrollable hook.

Think Sean Rash, Tommy Jones type of hand with Eric Forkel type of speed. LOL

So if I park the pin a 1/4 inch from my track which is right by my fingers holes, what will the ball reaction be?

bluerrpilot · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2010, 10:17:59 AM »

it will be exactly what you dont want. i would try urethane to cut down the backend
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Edited on 1/27/2010 11:18 AM

Brian362 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2010, 10:44:45 AM »

I experimented with a similar layout on a storm rapid fire solid. First drilling on ball was 5*5 pin over middle finger. This ball was way too strong on the backend (even with added surface) So, after a recommendation from Paul Seay (flounder6639) I tried a layout with the pin 6 1/4 inches away from my pap. This was a good layout for my rev dominant style. I have slow ball speed aswell. What I got was a ball that was real smooth on the back end and still had some energy left to carry corner pins. What I lost was the ability to move in deep and swing this ball. This layout allows me to stay more in the friction and closer to the gutter, in leiu of swing the ball coast to coast or lofting the gutter cap....

IMHO, try it on an older ball (preferably a stronger piece) to see for yourself the different it can make. My next attempt at this type of layout I will put the PSA in a stronger postion so that I will be able to belly the ball a little more.

I can't recall the exact measurement of PAP to PSA, but will add upon my return home from the peoshop where I keep my equipment and work partime with Paul.

laddog54 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 27, 2010, 12:08:20 PM »

I have a couple of balls drill this way. Most of the time it gives you a big back end pop. On one of them (SD-73 Classic)I decided to get the cg swung as far right as I could, put a flare reducing hole in and polished the surface just a little. This gave the ball a really smooth back end. I can't use it way in and expect big recovery but if I need to play 20-25 and keep the break point between 12-15 it works real well.
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ROTO GRIP - King of Them All

J_w73 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2010, 04:28:52 PM »

I think cover prep is key with this layout but why not put the pin like 1 inch from your pap .. that should tame any sort of backend or angularity ... and then just prep the cover for the condition you are on...
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 1/28/2010 5:29 PM

Cobalt Bomb · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2010, 04:34:38 PM »

I say try it,pin maybe 6" from pap, 3" from VAL. I like that layout, especially with a relatively strong symmetrical piece. The only way you will know for sure is to try it for yourself.

Edited on 1/28/2010 5:34 PM

azus · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2010, 04:38:23 PM »

Put the mb on your VAL to smooth out the backend reaction.
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J_w73 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2010, 04:50:08 PM »

quote:
I say try it,pin maybe 6" from pap, 3" from VAL. I like that layout, especially with a relatively strong symmetrical piece. The only way you will know for sure is to try it for yourself.

Edited on 1/28/2010 5:34 PM

I have a slate blue gargoyle that I wanted a similar reaction that you were looking for.. I put the pin 6" from my pap up above my middle finger..

The ball has length and then super snappy on the back.. exactly what I didn't want since I use it for 10 pins.. had to polish and delay reaction the heck out of it..

If it is an assymetrical ball then you could play around with mb placement like suggestes.. on the VAL will help the ball burn up some and possibly reduce the backend.. but that will depend on the amount of oil on the lane..

if you put the mb left of the thumb that may kill the reaction.. everyone I know that puts the mb left of the thumb(right hander) can't get the ball to move on the back end.

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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Cobalt Bomb · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2010, 04:57:11 PM »

quote:
quote:
I say try it,pin maybe 6" from pap, 3" from VAL. I like that layout, especially with a relatively strong symmetrical piece. The only way you will know for sure is to try it for yourself.

Edited on 1/28/2010 5:34 PM

I have a slate blue gargoyle that I wanted a similar reaction that you were looking for.. I put the pin 6" from my pap up above my middle finger..

The ball has length and then super snappy on the back.. exactly what I didn''''t want since I use it for 10 pins.. had to polish and delay reaction the heck out of it..
_______________________________________________________________________________

If it is an assymetrical ball then you could play around with mb placement like suggestes.. on the VAL will help the ball burn up some and possibly reduce the backend.. but that will depend on the amount of oil on the lane..

if you put the mb left of the thumb that may kill the reaction.. everyone I know that puts the mb left of the thumb(right hander) can''''t get the ball to move on the back end.

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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

I get length with a muted back end reaction. I have medium revs with a relatively slow ball speed. I find I can use this layout until forced deeper inside, then the ball will not flip the 10.

I think it would be at least worth a try for the OP.

Edited on 1/28/2010 5:57 PM

Edited on 1/28/2010 5:58 PM

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2010, 05:27:22 PM »

You want less back end put the pin closer to your pap. Try less then 2". With a medium or less hooking ball maybe a pearl like the Avalanche series or something from Roto Grip like the Mars or Pluto.

The two Roto Grip balls have a much higher RG which means the core revs slower and retains energy longer. This way the balls cover and core will naturally give it length and the drill pattern will also flatten out the back end.

Plus your not having to invest a lot of money in trying it out. May even try with an older ball that has been plug.

AFFECT OF PIN PLACEMENT
Pin to PAP distance:
0" - minimum flare potential, core is in its most stable position, earliest roll with smoothest arc.
1 1/8" - 1/3 of flare potential, stable core position, earlier roll with smooth arc.
2 1/4" - 2/3 of flare potential, semi stable core position, early roll with strong arc.
3 3/8" - max flare potential, most unstable core position, medium length with the most hook potential.
4 1/2" - 2/3 of flare potential, semi stable core position, late roll with flip/arc reaction.
5 5/8" - 1/3 of flare potential, stable core position, later roll with a flip reaction.
6 3/4" - minimum flare potential, stable core position, latest roll with strongest flip.

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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "

Author Topic: 6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers?? (Read 12721 times)

txbowler

6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers??

bluerrpilot

Re: 6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers??

Brian362

Re: 6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers??

laddog54

Re: 6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers??

J_w73

Re: 6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers??

Cobalt Bomb

Re: 6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers??

azus

Re: 6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers??

J_w73

Re: 6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers??

Cobalt Bomb

Re: 6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers??

kidlost2000

Re: 6 inch pin from pap layout - over fingers??