BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: kidlost2000 on June 26, 2010, 12:17:20 PM
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After doing some reading I realized that one would come in handy if the price was reasonable. Well $1300 wasn''t the price I had in mind by even a little.
So then I did some reading in the manual and looking at the pictures then some more reading and thought I would really like to see this in action. Well after some searching I had no luck.
I made a post on another bowling site and was referred to a vid that had one in use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVmNsR7iBiQ&feature=related
Go to the 2:40 mark and start.
It is in the Ebonite warehouse and is the device in its simpler form. (minus 3 arms) Which according to the manual by Morich only one is used and that is for simply marking a spot with a pencil half way up the ball.
So my next thought was to go ahead and build one since it appears to be as simple as a ball spinner in terms of parts and what it does.
I was just curious if any body out there actually had one.
I''m not a pro shop. I have a drill press, scale, spinner and other items my brother and I picked up along the way for our personal use since about 2001.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don''''t "
Edited on 6/26/2010 8:17 PM
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Also a post I found from another site where I put in BOLD something I found interesting.
"What excactly is Mass Bias ? Another heavy spot ?
I was waiting for this question! Since I was the person who coined the phrase "mass bias", I hope you guys agree that it is appropriate that I answer the question. The term was invented to express the amount the body of the Hammer 3D Offset was shifted towards the positive side of the ball. It was a "lay" term to say that the "mass bias" was the spot on the y/z plane (the midplane of the ball perpendicular to the pin) of the ball where the inner core body is closest to the outside of the shell of the ball. Whew! That was a mouthful.
The definition has, since then, evolved into two scientifically accurate terms. The "mass bias" is the preferred spin axis (PSA) of the ball which is the high RG axis of the ball. That spot can be identified by spinning the ball on a "DeTerminator". The laws of the universe state that when an asymmetrical ball is allowed to spin freely when energy is imparted to it (a DeTerminator), it will seek and end up on the high RG axis of the ball, the PSA. All drilled balls are asymmetrical, even though they some of them were symmetrical undrilled. There is NO such thing as a drilled symmetrical ball!
The easy answer is that the scientifically accurate term for the "mass bias" is the PSA of the ball which is the high RG axis of the ball. "
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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If you have access or had access to a determinator do you know what the black rollers are made out of that the bowling ball sits on?
The bar underneath is metal but what is around it on the outside is not.
I'm guessing rubber but could be wrong.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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WOW, this guy on the other site is a D#&K!!!
I know this site isn't great sometimes but it is a lot better then having someone/admin lock a thread because of fear or someone getting their feelings hurt. I doubt MO cares if I'm trying to build a determinator since he wasn't getting my $1300 for it any ways.
heres the link
http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=747
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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The only question I asked was on the rollers. The only reason I asked is because the guy wanted to argue I couldn''t make it and I would have to have parts machined in order to do so. Which upon further review was really wrong. The rollers are just regular rollers that have inserts wrapped around them.
I didn''t know Mo was the site founder, nor do I care.
There are plenty being used else where not made by him.(other manufactures) So I doubt he cares too much because most proshops don''t appear to be knocking Jayhawks doors down to get one.
That is why I was also curious how many shops out there have one. Plus this guy already admits his boss made one when he was at USBC or for USBC or some BS but was quick to add how inferior it was to the one made by Mo.
I don''t care what there reason he was still a D$%K.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don''t "
Edited on 6/27/2010 7:04 AM
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You are, sort of, saying that what took lots of time, ingenuity, and engineers to design, should be easily reproduced in your garage from spare parts and in your spare time.
You are also, sort of, arguing with people who have been involved in the technical issues of bowling probably since before you were bowling, and have LOTS of experience in the field, and on the forum of the guy who owns MoRich company in the first place. Sure you're gonna catch it for saying that you can easily make machines he sells for a profit.
I'm pretty mechanically inclined, and if given the specs, might be able to create something along the lines of a DeTerminator. I would not, however, tell technically minded people that this machine could be simply, and cheaply, reproduced in my garage with spare parts. It's sort of like telling them they don't know what they're saying/doing, and that they are ripping people off by charging so much for something they could make at home.
They may also have had to use "exotic" materials in the production of some of the parts, i.e. the "rollers", in effort to reduce the friction, and thus the influence, they would have on the spinning ball.
If you are able to reproduce the machine, congratulations, but don't be surprised if it doesn't work just right. Sometimes the homespun stuff works, and sometimes it doesn't.
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Good transactions list in my profile
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I have a deTerminator.
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Neil Lau
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
Owner of Super Bowl Pro Shop and Bowlers Junction, CA
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I didn't notice it was under the Mo and friends till later. I posted mine under other which doesn't matter he gets on there and post under all of it.
After seeing one else where I have a feeling it will not be as hard to do. Since the main idea is for the ball to be able to spin freely that shouldn't be so hard to accomplish.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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laufaye
Could you tell me what the black stuff around the roller is? I'm guessing rubber. Also did you buy it from Jayhawk?
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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quote:
laufaye
Could you tell me what the black stuff around the roller is? I'm guessing rubber. Also did you buy it from Jayhawk?
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
I am sorry I cannot do that, I am also a friend of Mo. I can make one just like that, but I rather give Mo the money, and if I want to make one, I'll make one better rather than copy it.
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Neil Lau
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
Owner of Super Bowl Pro Shop and Bowlers Junction, CA
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I have no doubt it took a lot of time and research to figure out the things he has learned in regards to how things work and then an idea to produce something to test it.
I'm guessing since so many other companies have the same thing and they aren't made by Morich it can be done by others as well.
Thanks for the reply laufaye. It is good to know you can make one better. Mine will be more of a resemblance to the one seen being used by Ebonite then the one produced by Jayhawk.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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to my knowledge, there is only 1 determinator and that is made by Mo. jayhawk sells them for Mo along with other distributors.
If the MB is marked correctly, and it should be, you really do not need one, but if you plug a lot of balls, then you definately need one. Just my opinion.
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That was my thought originally. Some from time to time are miss marked which has been stated on here. Also I learned from reading Mos post that after you drill the ball the PSA/MB shifts because you have changed the balls dynamics. Before they drilled the P4 weight hole in the RipR vid they re=spun the ball to find its new location which was about an 1 1/4" up and a little to the right of the original MB/PSA marker.
That was what got me interested in an item to locate such a thing until I saw the price tag of $1300. I could live life with out one and it would never be an issue by after looking into I decided that if I could build my own for much less then why not. The worst that could happen is it not work and I'm out about $50-60.(not including the motor which would be returnable)
So that is why I decided to try it. Not to mass produce for re-sale or anything else just for my own personal use as an additional tool/toy to use when hanging out in the shop.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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If you think its just that simple to replicate the determinator your a moron. I bet you going to buy the drill you bowling ball at home thing that some guy is selling on here too? LMAO
Some people have no clue.
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REFS: MrEddie(BBE), notsohotshot(BR), akanayte(UTA), Tywithay(BBE)
CoolRockinDaddy- The ball reviews RA-tard
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I don''t see why it would be particularly hard to make one that works...if you can create something that will allow the ball to spin naturally shouldn''t it naturally rotate to it''s PSA? I think the secret would be in the rolling device itself as it would need to have enough grip in order to spin the ball, but not to the point where the ball couldn''t spin to its PSA. I mean the version on the how it''s made video is rather simple.
I would like to have one, but perhaps it''s harder to make an accurrate one then it looks, because else would there be only one that you can purchase at retail?
Edited on 6/27/2010 8:38 PM
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quote:
If you think its just that simple to replicate the determinator your a moron. I bet you going to buy the drill you bowling ball at home thing that some guy is selling on here too? LMAO
Some people have no clue.
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REFS: MrEddie(BBE), notsohotshot(BR), akanayte(UTA), Tywithay(BBE)
CoolRockinDaddy- The ball reviews RA-tard
No, I have a drill press, jigs, bits, ball spinner, and other tools. If you read the post after yours and see the spinner used in the Ebonite video you would understand the basic concept that eludes you. A ball will, when allowed to spin freely, rotate to its PSA. If you watch the video that is exactly what happens. The amount of time it takes depends on the strength of the MB/PSA. Some can be as fast as 15 secs up to a minute. Some will never find it, if it is too week.
You already knew that though......right?
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don''t "
Edited on 6/28/2010 2:07 AM
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quote:
After doing some reading I realized that one would come in handy if the price was reasonable. Well $1300 wasn''t the price I had in mind by even a little.
So then I did some reading in the manual and looking at the pictures then some more reading and thought I would really like to see this in action. Well after some searching I had no luck.
I made a post on another bowling site and was referred to a vid that had one in use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVmNsR7iBiQ&feature=related
Go to the 2:40 mark and start.
It is in the Ebonite warehouse and is the device in its simpler form. (minus 3 arms) Which according to the manual by Morich only one is used and that is for simply marking a spot with a pencil half way up the ball.
So my next thought was to go ahead and build one since it appears to be as simple as a ball spinner in terms of parts and what it does.
I was just curious if any body out there actually had one.
I''m not a pro shop. I have a drill press, scale, spinner and other items my brother and I picked up along the way for our personal use since about 2001.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don''''t "
Edited on 6/26/2010 8:17 PM
There was a guy somewhere in Florida I believe was selling something similar to the determinator because our Pro shop has one.I will try and get some info and send it to you when I do.
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This makes me wonder:
If the PSA is so important, well, important enough that Mo would find the "new" PSA after drilling to make sure the weight hole was put in the proper spot
and drilling a ball is going to alter the PSA
and plugging a ball is going to change the PSA
how can any self-respecting "pro shop" not have a DeTerminator?
Sounds like it should be a requirement for any shop that drills balls, or at least any shop displaying the IBPSIA certification.
Really, it sounds as important as having a scale!
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It is useful but not needed. Bowling balls have always had a PSA since they have been drilling them. It has gotten stronger since the core technology and drill technology is where it is today.
You can still get by with out having one and be ok. It is a great tool to be able to accurately fine tune something like anything else. It wouldn't be something required.
thanks for any help headwest
quote:
This makes me wonder:
If the PSA is so important, well, important enough that Mo would find the "new" PSA after drilling to make sure the weight hole was put in the proper spot
and drilling a ball is going to alter the PSA
and plugging a ball is going to change the PSA
how can any self-respecting "pro shop" not have a DeTerminator?
Sounds like it should be a requirement for any shop that drills balls, or at least any shop displaying the IBPSIA certification.
Really, it sounds as important as having a scale!
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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quote:
It is useful but not needed. Bowling balls have always had a PSA since they have been drilling them. It has gotten stronger since the core technology and drill technology is where it is today.
You can still get by with out having one and be ok. It is a great tool to be able to accurately fine tune something like anything else. It wouldn't be something required.
thanks for any help headwest
Thanks, that was kind of my point!
I know that Mo has taught at some of the IBPSIA classes.
I've never seen a DeTerminator at a shop. I'll follow that up with the mention that I've only used 3 shops. I know for sure that 1 does not have the device. The other 2 shops had a limited view of the drilling area, so they may have it and I just didn't see it.
Good luck with your project. I applaud your ingenuity and willingness to learn more. As a home driller (with all the "real" tools), I know how resistant the industry can be to those that want to think outside the box.
Not everybody has $1000+ for a limited use tool, and I'm sure there are plenty of shops that have the tool and don't use it, or maybe don't even know how to use it!
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That is why I was curious how many places have one.
I remember my brother saying he didn't see one any where when he was at nationals. I think most places get by just fine with out ever having one. It would be nice just for general curiosity on some things. That is my whole reason for wanting one.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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quote:
This makes me wonder:
If the PSA is so important, well, important enough that Mo would find the "new" PSA after drilling to make sure the weight hole was put in the proper spot
and drilling a ball is going to alter the PSA
and plugging a ball is going to change the PSA
how can any self-respecting "pro shop" not have a DeTerminator?
Sounds like it should be a requirement for any shop that drills balls, or at least any shop displaying the IBPSIA certification.
Really, it sounds as important as having a scale!
Many pro shops are still ignoring the importance of the location of the pin with respect to the bowler's PAP. ANd you think they're going to pay attention to some "kook", like Mo, and the importance of the PSA?
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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I got a reply from Mo on the other site which was cool.
I can't reply because it is locked.
" You will face lots of challenges in making a DeTerminator. Sourcing the slow start motor, curvature of the drive bushing, composition of the bushings, spinning rate of the ball, etc. May I suggest you purchase a DeTerminator and the retail price is $1395. Thanks for your inquiry."
Thought that was cool. I'm not a pro shop and can't afford to spend that much for a mb/psa locator.
Still it will be fun to make. Got a few parts on the way and will wait till everything is put together before getting the motor last.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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quote:
I got a reply from Mo on the other site which was cool.
I can't reply because it is locked.
" You will face lots of challenges in making a DeTerminator. Sourcing the slow start motor, curvature of the drive bushing, composition of the bushings, spinning rate of the ball, etc. May I suggest you purchase a DeTerminator and the retail price is $1395. Thanks for your inquiry."
Thought that was cool. I'm not a pro shop and can't afford to spend that much for a mb/psa locator.
Still it will be fun to make. Got a few parts on the way and will wait till everything is put together before getting the motor last.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
thats why I like mo. I may not always see things his way but hes always really nice about it and just states his opinion. Always improving the sport of bowling... thats mo!
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Very smart guy.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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i think about 2 or 3 years ago someone made one and was selling it. I guess he got sue lol.
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"A man with no skills can be taught. A man with no honor, has nothing."
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I have a DeTerminator.
In my opinion the most valuable piece of equipment in my shop.
I would say if you want one that bad save up and buy one. Support Mo and the time and effort he put in to developed the technology.
Mo gives so much to the game of bowling. Seems pretty crappy to go copy his invention.
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Rick Guined
Owner/Operator: New Millennium Proshop: http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/ff183/Guined/
Ebonite Gold Pro Shop Member
Vise PBA Regional Staff Player
IBPSIA Advanced Certified Technician
USBC Bronze Certified Instructor
www.viseinserts.com
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I''m not copying his invention, I copying Ebonites version of it. I''m also not paying $1400 for something that I only want to try out and see what effects it has on a drilled bowling ball.
I support Mo by buying his bowling balls. I''m not buying his psa locator. All the stuff he has done in bowling wasn''t because he was a nice guy with the free time. It was because he had a business and he is trying to make money with that business and that technology.
Not saying he isn''t nice, but he is in it to make money.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don''t "
Edited on 7/10/2010 9:21 PM
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"Imitation is the highest form of flattery"
If kidlost2000 wants to build it then he has every right to do it as long as he does not impinge on any patent he is okay. He is not looking to mass produce it so it won't affect MO at all. What ever his cost may turn out to be, it will not shed lite on what MO's state of the art device cost or should be sold at.
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"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"