Author Topic: Why????? (Read 18125 times)

Doug Sterner · « **on:** February 10, 2010, 10:46:22 AM »

Now I am not professing to be a genius here or even a really smart guy but I have a serious question for both the pro shop guys out here and also the bowlers...

For the Pro Shop Guys....2 questions
1. When a "league hack" comes into your shop and says they want a Mutant Cell or Invasion to bowl on the house shot, why do you sell them the ball instead of getting them to get into a less aggressive ball that they will fare better with?

2. Why, even after selling them the Mutant Cell or Virtual Gravity or similar, do you drill the ball up max stacked leverage?

Don't we realize that when we do #1 and combine it with #2 that there is a 90% chance that the ball isn't going to work? Honestly...look at the heavy hooking balls that we see for sale on this site....90% are drilled stacked with the pin in the ballpark of 3-4" off the PAP...why?

Now for the customers...very simple...

Why don't you all trust your pro shop guy to put you in the ball you NEED instead of the ball you THINK YOU WANT? Then why do you tell him to "drill it to hook!" ?

I am simply baffled at the number of heavy hooking balls I see for sale here drilled for max hook and usually they are dulled up to look like 220 grit!

Why???

Help me out here guys!!!!
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug''s Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
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qstick777 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 23, 2010, 06:02:27 AM »

I have 2 local shops.

1 guy will just come out and tell you "you don't need that ball. It's too aggressive. I'll sell it to you if that's what you want, but I don't think you'll be happy with it."

He doesn't stock many balls, and what he does stock are the latest and greatest "high end" balls. And he sells a lot of these "hook monsters."

And most of his drillings are either label or stacked.

The other guy will basically tell you the same thing. He'll ask which house and league you're bowling in. He also stocks most of the current releases and won't hesitate to recommend a lower end ball, and he'll tell you why he thinks a different ball would be better. But like the first, I'm sure he'll sell you whatever ball you want to buy!

He'll also tell you that part of the problem is internet sites like this. People go to ballreviews and see a video or read a review about how great or strong a ball is and suddenly they think they are an expert about the balls and drillings. They don't have a clue how the other person bowls, or what conditions they see. They get the ball and throw it and it's horrible because they don't put any oil down and they'd have gotten a better reaction buying an entry level or mid priced ball.

^^^^ that's an approximate quote.

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2010, 10:15:56 PM »

well qstick you need to make sure those 2 shops stay in business since they are some of the few who will tell the customer like it is.

If the customer wants a specific ball then I'll do the same thing your 2 shops do...I'll sell them what they want but I will tell them that I think it's a bad choice.

In the end I guess the customer is always right but that begs the other questions.....

why do we as bowlers see the need to buy the latest and greatest hook monster when they are continuously getting their rear ends handed to them by guys throwing cheaper and less aggressive equipment?

Granted I did just drill up a Mission for myself but I had to try one for myself...I want to see if the Ebo-hype holds up...afterall as a pro shop guy that's my job....yes???
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Billy Ray · « **Reply #33 on:** February 24, 2010, 08:49:33 AM »

quote:
Now I am not professing to be a genius here or even a really smart guy but I have a serious question for both the pro shop guys out here and also the bowlers...

For the Pro Shop Guys....2 questions
1. When a "league hack" comes into your shop and says they want a Mutant Cell or Invasion to bowl on the house shot, why do you sell them the ball instead of getting them to get into a less aggressive ball that they will fare better with?

2. Why, even after selling them the Mutant Cell or Virtual Gravity or similar, do you drill the ball up max stacked leverage?

Don't we realize that when we do #1 and combine it with #2 that there is a 90% chance that the ball isn't going to work? Honestly...look at the heavy hooking balls that we see for sale on this site....90% are drilled stacked with the pin in the ballpark of 3-4" off the PAP...why?

Now for the customers...very simple...

Why don't you all trust your pro shop guy to put you in the ball you NEED instead of the ball you THINK YOU WANT? Then why do you tell him to "drill it to hook!" ?

I am simply baffled at the number of heavy hooking balls I see for sale here drilled for max hook and usually they are dulled up to look like 220 grit!

Why???

Help me out here guys!!!!
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug''s Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

Doug,
I am not the typical Pro Shop guy I guess.
I Refuse to Sell a guy a ball if there is a chance he will bad mouth my shop or me if the ball, against all my pleading and begging doesnt work. I used to just punch it up and send them on their way with the way they wanted it drilled but no more! Infact I do something radically different.

Here is what I do:
A guy comes in and says I want Ball X because its the hookingest ball and newest ball on the market. I take him to the lanes and watch him bowl with his 5+ year old ball where he averages 205ish in our house. I ask him why he wants Ball X? He says its the hookingest and newest. I tell him what if I can out him in a ball that gives him everything he wants, more hook and more hit but Save him $50? HE's obviously skeptical because he did his homework on the internet. So I sweeten the deal. If you buy the ball I think you should have and I lay it out properly and drill it, I will show you how to throw it to take full advantage of the ball and its technology, If you dont love it, I will eat it and I will give you 100% of your money back towards the purchase of the ball you originally wanted and drill it how you wanted.

I have never eaten a ball!!!
--------------------
Billy Ray
Track Pro Staff
Owner Rays Pro Shop
At The Playdium
"Let Us Help You Become More Competitive"

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #34 on:** February 24, 2010, 09:10:26 AM »

Billy Ray...I KNOW you are one of the smartest guys on here!

As you prescribed for me on a condition that killed me the best fit I had on this brutal shot(it was a weak drilling on stronger than average ball that made the pattern....easy!)

However on the left in Wet Florida I see many of our lefties using stuff drilled too weak(ie for low volume patterns) when they could own the top HAT!
As a result of using their weakly drilled tourney stuff they are converting area shots to single board shots! The opposite can happen can't it?

As in these cases.

Billy Ray please chime in!

Regards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Billy Ray · « **Reply #35 on:** February 24, 2010, 02:04:52 PM »

quote:
Billy Ray...I KNOW you are one of the smartest guys on here!

As you prescribed for me on a condition that killed me the best fit I had on this brutal shot(it was a weak drilling on stronger than average ball that made the pattern....easy!)

However on the left in Wet Florida I see many of our lefties using stuff drilled too weak(ie for low volume patterns) when they could own the top HAT!
As a result of using their weakly drilled tourney stuff they are converting area shots to single board shots! The opposite can happen can't it?

As in these cases.

Billy Ray please chime in!

Regards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

The biggest problem with Lefthanders is that they seldom see Transition. On leagues, if the pattern is symetrical right to left, is that the pattern develops/breaks down at a hugely different pace.
So to combat this many lefties think they need to stay closer to the twig (gutter) to remain competitive and drill weaker equipment to allow them to stay in the burn. When in actuality if they have a decent rev rate they are giving up the ability to create more area by using a stronger ball and moving inside to develop their own area. This obviously does not apply as much to guys with low rev rates or that have no inside game. For these guys to move in a take advantage of no or little transition they would have to use some different layouts and surfaces to accomplish what I am talking about. But for most lefties I know,(and I hate most of them LOL, Inside Joke) like to stay in their comfort zone and play down the boards. As a Pro Shop guy I have taken many lefties and righties for that matter and shown them how to play the lanes and to take advantage of their abilities. The modern balls break down a lane so much differently than the balls of the past and some of these guys are stuck in the 90's with their releases and thinking. If you change their minds you will change their games.
--------------------
Billy Ray
Track Pro Staff
Owner Rays Pro Shop
At The Playdium
"Let Us Help You Become More Competitive"

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #36 on:** February 24, 2010, 02:47:20 PM »

Billy, I commend you! A true PROFESSIONAL out to make the customer a better bowler and not simply line his pockets...kudos to you!!!

I have done similar things over the years with a few customers. I basically said "here, I'll drill you the ball I think will work for you. When it does work, give me $xx.xx (which that price is ALWAYS less than advertised retail). If it doesn't work out for you, you don't owe me anything.. How's that?"

Amazingly I have had only 3-4 people over the last 5 years take me up on it....

Go figure.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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LuckyLefty · « **Reply #37 on:** February 25, 2010, 11:07:55 PM »

Along those lines Billy ...I have felt very comfortable taking these real strong balls moving inside(where I don't see other Lefties often) and really enjoying the shot and the area these strong balls give me on my side!

I think a lot of the comments above are regarding bowlers on either side staying straight up 10 and having to go to weaker equipement or weaker drilled equipment to play these lines which maybe should be abandoned..

Regards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

kcbruns300 · « **Reply #38 on:** February 26, 2010, 12:21:00 AM »

Because if you don't sell it to the hack and make him happy then he'll find some other brain dead shop to do it, especially in a town like ours where all the shops are trying to undercut each other, except us. Because he read online maybe even on this site he needed that ball with that layout all the sudden he knows better. And in business the customer is always right. I try to tell them what they need and usually have them use a try before you buy before selling it to them. But every shop guy knows, sometimes you just gotta swallow your pride and give em what they want because there's lots of bullheaded people out there
--------------------
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff Member
www.bowlingballdiscounts.com
www.bowlers-connection.com
Bowler's Connection Pro Shop

TDC57 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 26, 2010, 12:30:43 AM »

Why does the word hack have to be used by snobs on this site? Do you think all average "Joe Bowlers" are hacks? I could see there are some guys who are cocky and play on soft conditions that you may call hacks but is that what you call nice guys who are just average league bowlers who walk in and try to find something to make them more competitive against the better guys in their league?

Bigmike · « **Reply #40 on:** February 26, 2010, 06:37:29 AM »

Doug,

We do it for all of the brands that will send us the balls. Our store is Roto STAR and Storm VIP so their sales rep sends us stuff to drill. One of our owners is a Columbia staffer, so he gets freebies to drill and we usually get one each of the Hammer/Track/Ebo brands to drill.

I let a guy try out the Jigsaw Corner the other night during his league and he had a 7 bagger and didn't want to give it back. One of the guys in his league does some work/lessons thru us and has a key to the store so he returned it when this customer finished his league set. The very next day this guy was sitting in front of the store 15 minutes before we opened to get the last blank Jigsaw Corner we have at the time.

We do Try before you Buy clinics occasionally to drum up some business and it works. We will have a short teaching session then hit the lanes. It works and is worth the price!

Mike

quote:
Something just hit me as I read charlest's response....

this is exactly what Storm and Turbo have teamed up to try and combat. Their Try It Before You Buy It program gives the bowler the chance to try the ball before they buy one.

I think I am going to try and get a similar program to this going over the summer.

--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

--------------------
"Why don't you call me sometime.....when you have no class" ~~Rodney Dangerfield to Sally Kellerman, his college professor in Back to School ~~1986

Mike Craig - Storm Products Pro Shop staff -Columbus, OH

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #41 on:** February 26, 2010, 12:36:40 PM »

TDC....definition of "hack"....typical guy who thinks he knows everything about bowling because he can average 210 in a house league where there is free hook right of 10. The typical hack could benefit far more by spending the $100 on some lessons than by buying a new ball.

The typical hack wants the latest and greatest because they see other guys throwing it even though the oil soaked 5 year old ball they have is hooking too much as they stand right and point it up the 10 board.

My question is why do people act this way? Why won't they listen to reason? Dont they realize that most pro shop guys know way more about bowling balls than the individual bowler could ever know?

And on the flipside, why do some pro shops push the latest and greatest on their customers? Why sell a Mutant Cell when a Nomad Solid will work every bit as good and give the customer money back in their pocket as well as more forgiveness on the lanes? I know there are plenty of greedy pro shops out there that want to make a buck but c'mon.

Granted if I had bought the big package deals at the last 2 seminars I went to I could have gotten Jigsaw Corners, Missions and Pure Swings for under $100 each. Does that mean I should push those balls onto everybody that comes in the shop so I can make extra cash? I know there are plenty of shops that tell the customer the ball for them is the one they "just got in" and have "3 cases sitting right here." "It's the hottest ball on the market right now." is not a selling point for all of the customers through the door.....
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net

JohnnyRocket · « **Reply #42 on:** February 28, 2010, 04:45:48 PM »

My last 2 ball purchases Hammer Green Vibe dulled with 2000 abralon, and a Storm Fast best 1-2 combo I got. Now on the other hand I'm meeting a guy and buying a Storm VG that has 6 games on it for $60.00. It won't get used much but nice to have in the bag.
JR
--------------------

Johnny

nd300 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 28, 2010, 05:09:36 PM »

I picked up a Cell used and set it up for heavy oil,when I see it,which is rare. I also picked up a Rogue at Nationals last year and asked the pro shop owner to set it up for me. He knows my game,rev rate,ball speed, etc. We went wtih a pin under middle and the Cg kicked out for back end reaction. It's working exactly as he said it would.
I went with both after watching them thrown by good---220 plus---bowlers. And they do what they're supposed to. I've bought many balls over the years,as many of us have. I try not to buy unless it's needed or to fit in as a tournament arsenal ball.
While the 'Net has made research easier,there's still way too many THB's out there who do want the latest hook ball,BECASUE THEY DON'T PRACTICE.......
That's where I agree totally with you experienced pro shop owners about selling. They should spend the extra $$ on lessons and practice instead of a ball.
--------------------
Chris
JTTDB---Just Throw The Damn Ball
Don't "think"---that ball isn't in your bag yet..........

tommymo · « **Reply #44 on:** February 28, 2010, 08:37:13 PM »

I am in the same boat. I am constantly telling our "big" scratch league bowlers that starting off the night standing 35 crossing the 4th arrow out to the 5 board isn't a real good idea. I don't mind selling a ball to a bowler as long as I have sat and talked with them about their game and where this ball fits and what condition it's used for. My biggest problem is with the junior bowlers who see this trend and try to copy it. I have sent many of them packing with nothing more than a bottle of cleaner and a certificate for a free resurfacing. I had a fun day with the junior league this year during the holidays and a few of the high average juniors wanted to take me on. I wheeled out two bags full of balls and told them to pick one. After looking over their choices they decided on my Maxim. Of course this was a setup. I ended up beating every kid on that pair, and not just beating but the nearest kid was 85 pins away. Its bad when I have kids with more high end equipment than I have.

How many times have you heard I want this ball to go really long and then snap on HEAVY oil? Or I don't want to adjust on heavy oil, I want to play the line I normally play so drill this ball really strong. I try to educate my customers during the process of picking a new ball. Yet, I still have one older gentleman that insists on buying the hottest ball on the market but he wants to play "down and in" on a medium oiled house shot on older wood lanes. He ends up selling the ball after that because he's mad it's not working. I also sold a Mutant to a gentleman this year who's been using a White Dot because "The color is ugly and no one else has it." There was nothing I could do to talk him out of it. I wanted to refuse to drill it but to be truthful I wanted to see him struggle for being so hard headed. I ended up plugging that ball a month later and trading it for a Freeze we had in stock. I strongly believe in educating my customers that's why I've sold more Fast, Furious, Nomads and Freezes this year its disgusting. I've also sold many Invasions, Jigsaw Corners and Virtual Energy's but those are the cases that were insistant on a high priced ball.
--------------------
Your mind is like a parachute . . . Useless if it's not open!!!!

10/21/05 Kaitlyn Emily and 02/01/07 Meghan Alexis, Daddy's little girls! 06/02/09 Zachary Thomas, Finally daddy's little man!!!

R.I.P Kevin Trombley 11/26/05 You were taken too soon!

Visionary Test Staff Member 07-Current
Frankie May Gryphon
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B/G Centaur

JohnP · « **Reply #45 on:** March 01, 2010, 09:35:48 AM »

What do you do about the customer that brings in one of the Jigsaws (for example) that he bought from an internet shop, but he throws the ball 12 mph with enough revs that it's going to break out at 45'? I'm not going to trade it for a ball that fits his game better, because then I'm left with a Jigsaw my distributor isn't going to warranty. So I drill it with a layout I think will suit his game best (unless he demands the strongest layout on the drill sheet, which happens at times) and hope he doesn't bad mouth me to every one he sees. And I tell him next time to consult with me before ordering the ball so I can help him with selection, hoping he won't then take the ball to my competitor to get it drilled. -- JohnP

Author Topic: Why????? (Read 18125 times)

Doug Sterner

Why?????

qstick777

Re: Why?????

Doug Sterner

Re: Why?????

Billy Ray

Re: Why?????

LuckyLefty

Re: Why?????

Billy Ray

Re: Why?????

Doug Sterner

Re: Why?????

LuckyLefty

Re: Why?????

kcbruns300

Re: Why?????

TDC57

Re: Why?????

Bigmike

Re: Why?????

Doug Sterner

Re: Why?????

JohnnyRocket

Re: Why?????

nd300

Re: Why?????

tommymo

Re: Why?????

JohnP

Re: Why?????