Author Topic: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP (Read 8450 times)

J_w73 · « **on:** November 23, 2009, 12:33:34 PM »

I have a brunswick sidewinder that I want just a little more out of.

It is drilled 4" pin to pap. I have it drilled up so it will work for a double thumb type drilling but there currently insn't a weight hole. What I want to know what will be the difference in reaction if I put a weight hole in the double thumb location vs below my PAP on the VAL.
Either hole would be 6 3/4 from the pin.

I know I will get a bunch of links to the morich gradient line x-hole technique. I know about that but I really think that the distance from pin to x-hole mostly determines the reaction or atleast the final RG.. example.. The difference in differential change from P1 to P4 is less for a 5 inch pin to PAP ball .. A ball at leverage is alot.. as P1 is 3 3/8 away and really doesn't alter the RG diff that much.. and p4 is 6 3/4 with max change in RG diff.

So if I have two balls that have holes that are each 6 3/4 from the pin what will be the difference in reaction based on these two locations.

here is a link to a pic I put together

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2798/4129290581_9f11ac0357_o.jpg
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2009, 11:21:46 AM »

I have asked this question on a few different boards a few different times and have never really received a response other than the morich or some other companies x-hole template. I''m beginning to think that no one has a real grasp of the physics of x/ weight holes like they have of the pin to pap distance and core orientation. They just know a "put hole here or here if you want this or this" kind of like the way it was done for decades of putting the pin at 1 or 2 oclock for a stronger reaction but not really knowing the reason why or the physics behind it.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 11/27/2009 12:21 PM

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 30, 2009, 06:16:16 AM »

The Sidewinder is symmetrical, right? Double thumb drillings apply to asymmetrical balls. A weight hole by your thumb on a symmetrical ball will decrease flare and tame the reaction. If you want more, you'll have to go past your VAL or go really far below your thumb (8").
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

RichH · « **Reply #3 on:** November 30, 2009, 06:52:25 PM »

Actually double thumb will work on symmetric balls(according to Mo). Symmetric balls will tend to lose axis rotation and tilt sooner, so most balance holes in symmetric balls should be placed near the VAL. Placing the hole inside the VAL, closer to the centerline, will cause the ball to stand up sooner. Balance holes on the VAL, or slightly past it, will cause the drilled ball to retain axis tilt and rotation longer. Also the further the hole is from the pin, the more it will increase track flare. Pitching the balance hole will destabilize the ball, increasing flare and cause the ball to have a sharper break point. When pitching weight holes always pitch away from the center of the grip. SO...the original answer to your question the ball with the hole near the thumb will read the lane earlier.

Rich Huzina
IBPSIA Advanced Tech
USBC Silver Coach
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff

The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of the Brunswick Corporation.

J_w73 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 30, 2009, 10:15:13 PM »

quote:
Actually double thumb will work on symmetric balls(according to Mo). Symmetric balls will tend to lose axis rotation and tilt sooner, so most balance holes in symmetric balls should be placed near the VAL. Placing the hole inside the VAL, closer to the centerline, will cause the ball to stand up sooner. Balance holes on the VAL, or slightly past it, will cause the drilled ball to retain axis tilt and rotation longer. Also the further the hole is from the pin, the more it will increase track flare. Pitching the balance hole will destabilize the ball, increasing flare and cause the ball to have a sharper break point. When pitching weight holes always pitch away from the center of the grip. SO...the original answer to your question the ball with the hole near the thumb will read the lane earlier.

Rich Huzina
IBPSIA Advanced Tech
USBC Silver Coach
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff

The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of the Brunswick Corporation.

thanks for the help.. when you say placing a balance hole inside the VAL will cause a ball to stand up sooner.. are you talking about one that is 6 3/4 from the pin..?? I would agree that if you are using the old school method of putting a weight hole on a line from the pin through the PAP that putting the hole inside the VAL would do what you are saying cause it would be closer to the pin and lower the RG..
but I'm still unsure about one that is 6 3/4 from the pin inside the VAL near the thumb.. I would agree that it would increase flare.. but why would it roll sooner vs one on the VAL..??
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 30, 2009, 11:15:33 PM »

If I were guessing from the pic I would say A would hook sooner and B would hook later.

I have two different balls drilled identical to each other with one having the x-hole on the P1 and the other on P4.

P1 turns up sooner and has a strong finish. P4 retains more energy longer and has a sharper/more angled hook on the back end.

A few years ago before I knew what p1234 were it was still the case with some of my other equipment and I would always drill them accordingly.(either for early roll and hook(p1) or more length with stronger/more angled backend.(p4)
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" hand, don''t step on the lanes without some "

Edited on 12/1/2009 9:16 AM

bluerrpilot · « **Reply #6 on:** November 30, 2009, 11:54:13 PM »

I donâ€™t think you going to see much difference in reaction between the 2 holes. If anything I think â€œAâ€ would have a higher RG than â€œBâ€ creating a slightly longer, sharper downlane motion

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"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

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Edited on 12/1/2009 0:55 AM

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 01, 2009, 06:29:18 AM »

A will decrease flare. B will increase flare. B will hook more.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

J_w73 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 01, 2009, 09:28:15 AM »

quote:
At 6 3/4 from the primary pin is the location of a high rg axis. On symmetricals, this high rg axis is symmetrical around this point also, so the high rg axis is on a 27 inch circle around the centre of the ball 90 degrees to the pin. On an asymmetrical core this is the PSA marking.

When you are placing an XH, you will be creating assymetry on the high rg axis. This strengthens any existing asymmetry created by the original fitting holes. (larger drilled thumbs have a bigger effect than fingers)

TO answer your question, it''s difficult to guess what your preference in the term hook. DO you want less midlane read, stronger roll in the back or did you mean more midlane read and weaker overall boards crossed, but more oil handling capabilities?

The XH drilled near the thumb will create a much higher differential, giving the ball less boards overall but alot of midlane read. We are removing the MASS not the weight.

An XH drilled on the VAL as you have suggested will not fall within gradient lines and 90 degrees from primary pin at the same time. Trace the line from the Pap to the PSA. It will however remove more mass, swinging the PSA furthur out. This will usually be depending on the depth to the core at both near the thumb location and XH location.

This can create a controlled type of reaction by lowering the rg, or by removing mass away from the PSA, but can also be used as a bigger overall boardcrossing shot needed for those with less hand than the norm, but are accurate.

Unfortunately, the answer really depends on the situation. For a high rev guy, the increase in differential can be made to go straight due to rolling almost immediately with the "double thumb" XH location, but see an increase in control with the XH on the VAL. For a stroker with high speed and low rotation, the double thumb may be the key to downlane hook.

Hope this helps.
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Get on the G train.... GLOBAL BABY!

www.900global.com

That is probably one of the best explanations I have received.. I don''t quite understand it on a physics level but i think it helps. This ball is symmetrical so I will go from there. I completely understand about that 6 3/4 from the pin all alround the ball is the high rg axis on a symmetric.. you say that the high rg axis on an asymmetrical is the PSA....
so this PSA - would be a spot where there is less mass at this point and more mass everywhere else..(a loose definition of High RG axis)

so by putting a hole in an symmetric are you creating a PSA spot at the place you put the weight hole??.. so you can expect a reaction that would be as if you had a mb ball with the PSA/mb point at that location? I know that the asymmetry created isn''t probably as great as a manufactured asymmetric so the effect on the reaction won''t be as great...

would all of this be accurate???

as far as what I am looking for ... maybe what I want isn''t possible because it is counteractive with todays balls.. I want a ball that is more aggressive in oil but also will cover more overall boards..
As I said, I don''t think that was one of the options you gave.. but I do agree it really depends on the release and the speed.. High flare creates alot of hook and covering of boards for some but kills the ball in the midline for others..

on another note.. I don''t quite get when you say that the "B" hole will not be 90 degrees and on a gradient line at the same time.. I understand why it wouldn''t from a geometric standpoint.. but why does it matter if it is on a gradient line.. I am of the opinion that the "gradient line" isn''t anything on the ball that physically effects the reaction of the ball it is just a way to put weightholes in 4 different places that will result in 4 different reactions...and the reaction difference is primarily determined by the distance of the hole to the pin...not because it is on this "gradient line"

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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 12/1/2009 10:29 AM

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 01, 2009, 10:21:01 AM »

These guys have got you overthinking this way too much. The first question that should have been asked is what does your flares look like? Are the spread apart or tight together? 4" pin to PAP is a high flare placement. I don't want to recommend a flare increasing hole if the ball is already over-flaring. Now if you are getting a tight flare then you want to increase flare. Draw a line from the center of your grip through the cg. Place the weight hole on the point where that line intersects your VAL or up to one inch past. If you put the hole inside your VAL you are going to tame the reaction.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

J_w73 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 01, 2009, 02:54:52 PM »

quote:
These guys have got you overthinking this way too much. The first question that should have been asked is what does your flares look like? Are the spread apart or tight together? 4" pin to PAP is a high flare placement. I don't want to recommend a flare increasing hole if the ball is already over-flaring. Now if you are getting a tight flare then you want to increase flare. Draw a line from the center of your grip through the cg. Place the weight hole on the point where that line intersects your VAL or up to one inch past. If you put the hole inside your VAL you are going to tame the reaction.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

I dont think we are overthinking it.. I think that x-holes are not thought about enough.. the placement of them is archaic just like putting the pin to the right and above your ring finger created a strong hooking ball.. it did but know one knew why...and why it worked more for some than others.. 20 years later now we know why.. its the pin to pap distance ...

in this ball my cg is at about 4 or 5 oclock in relation to my center grip.. so if I form a line from there though the cg to my VAL the hole is going to be on the other side of the ball pretty much....

Putting the hole inside the VAL will tame the reaction if you use the brunswick method and the pin is at 3 3/8 from the PAP.. in that case.. inside the val will shorten the top of the core, lower the rg and the rg differential... past the VAL or down the VAL will take more mass out of the side of the core (being farther from the pin ).. increasing the differential thus increasing the flare..

I don't know much about x-holes but I can guarantee that the change in reaction has to do with where the x-hole is at in relation to the pin and not a primary relation to the PAP or the VAL. Where it is at from the PAP (or in relation to the rotation) probably plays a secondary effect but I am not sure what that is.. That is pretty much what the original question is..

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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 02, 2009, 06:28:38 AM »

quote:
quote:
These guys have got you overthinking this way too much. The first question that should have been asked is what does your flares look like? Are the spread apart or tight together? 4" pin to PAP is a high flare placement. I don't want to recommend a flare increasing hole if the ball is already over-flaring. Now if you are getting a tight flare then you want to increase flare. Draw a line from the center of your grip through the cg. Place the weight hole on the point where that line intersects your VAL or up to one inch past. If you put the hole inside your VAL you are going to tame the reaction.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

I dont think we are overthinking it.. I think that x-holes are not thought about enough.. the placement of them is archaic just like putting the pin to the right and above your ring finger created a strong hooking ball.. it did but know one knew why...and why it worked more for some than others.. 20 years later now we know why.. its the pin to pap distance ...

in this ball my cg is at about 4 or 5 oclock in relation to my center grip.. so if I form a line from there though the cg to my VAL the hole is going to be on the other side of the ball pretty much....

Putting the hole inside the VAL will tame the reaction if you use the brunswick method and the pin is at 3 3/8 from the PAP.. in that case.. inside the val will shorten the top of the core, lower the rg and the rg differential... past the VAL or down the VAL will take more mass out of the side of the core (being farther from the pin ).. increasing the differential thus increasing the flare..

I don't know much about x-holes but I can guarantee that the change in reaction has to do with where the x-hole is at in relation to the pin and not a primary relation to the PAP or the VAL. Where it is at from the PAP (or in relation to the rotation) probably plays a secondary effect but I am not sure what that is.. That is pretty much what the original question is..

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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Like I said, you are thinking about it so much that you are getting confused. Distance from your PAP and VAL has everything to do with how the the weight hole effects ball motion. Like you guys mentioned earlier, the hole you add creates asymmetry. If the weight hole acts as a mass bias or psa like you suggest (and I am not arguing this), then you have to treat it like one. Draw a line between the pin to the weight hole. This is the line of most resistance. When you PAP is on this line, it is experiencing the most resistance to revolution. As your PAP migrates towards this line, this resistance to revolution grows. Once your PAP crosses this line, it revs easier. Therefore, putting a weight hole on or past your VAL increases revs because you have already crossed this line of greatest resistance. Putting the weight hole inside your VAL tames your reaction because the ball is resisting revolution up to the point that your PAP crosses that line. That is the physics behind it.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

J_w73 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 03, 2009, 12:28:53 AM »

quote:

Like I said, you are thinking about it so much that you are getting confused. Distance from your PAP and VAL has everything to do with how the the weight hole effects ball motion. Like you guys mentioned earlier, the hole you add creates asymmetry. If the weight hole acts as a mass bias or psa like you suggest (and I am not arguing this), then you have to treat it like one. Draw a line between the pin to the weight hole. This is the line of most resistance. When you PAP is on this line, it is experiencing the most resistance to revolution. As your PAP migrates towards this line, this resistance to revolution grows. Once your PAP crosses this line, it revs easier. Therefore, putting a weight hole on or past your VAL increases revs because you have already crossed this line of greatest resistance. Putting the weight hole inside your VAL tames your reaction because the ball is resisting revolution up to the point that your PAP crosses that line. That is the physics behind it.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

I would agree with what you are saying about the placement.... all I am saying is that the distance from the pin to x-hole determines how much change to the core there is and determines the difference in the reaction you are going to generate..
and then I would agree that the placement of the x-hole in relation to the PAP is a secondary factor..

example.. if you have a 3 3/8 inch pin to pap and put a x-hole on your pap it isn't going to affect the reaction as much as a 5.5" pin to pap with an x-hole on the pap. The 5.5" one is going to increase the differential and the flare way more than the other one...
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 03, 2009, 06:25:23 AM »

quote:

I would agree with what you are saying about the placement.... all I am saying is that the distance from the pin to x-hole determines how much change to the core there is and determines the difference in the reaction you are going to generate..
and then I would agree that the placement of the x-hole in relation to the PAP is a secondary factor..

example.. if you have a 3 3/8 inch pin to pap and put a x-hole on your pap it isn't going to affect the reaction as much as a 5.5" pin to pap with an x-hole on the pap. The 5.5" one is going to increase the differential and the flare way more than the other one...
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

That is a really bad example. If you use a flare increasing weight hole to a max flare drilling (3-3/8" pin to PAP) the result is more than likely overflare and a tamer reaction. If you add a flare increasing weight hole to a lower flare drilling (like 5-1/2" pin to PAP) it will increase flare AND increase reaction. This doesn't prove what you're saying.

I like your idea, but I'd like some more proof. Here is an experiment that would shed some light on what you are saying. Drill two of the same ball with similar specs. Drill one 5-1/2" pin to PAP pin above fingers. Drill the other 5-1/2" pin to PAP below the fingers. Throw them both and take pictures of the flare. Add a weight hole on both balls in the same position and distance from PAP. If what you say is true, then the flare should change more on the pin above ball.

What you suggest may have some merit, but to say that x-hole distance from pin is more important than x-hole distance from PAP defies logic. If you can increase flare or decrease flare with the position of a weight hole in respect to the PAP, then there is a position where flare does not change. ANY weight hole closer to the pin than that position is going to change flare more than a weight hole on that position. This disproves your hypothesis.

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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

J_w73 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 03, 2009, 12:03:43 PM »

quote:
quote:

I would agree with what you are saying about the placement.... all I am saying is that the distance from the pin to x-hole determines how much change to the core there is and determines the difference in the reaction you are going to generate..
and then I would agree that the placement of the x-hole in relation to the PAP is a secondary factor..

example.. if you have a 3 3/8 inch pin to pap and put a x-hole on your pap it isn't going to affect the reaction as much as a 5.5" pin to pap with an x-hole on the pap. The 5.5" one is going to increase the differential and the flare way more than the other one...
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

That is a really bad example. If you use a flare increasing weight hole to a max flare drilling (3-3/8" pin to PAP) the result is more than likely overflare and a tamer reaction. If you add a flare increasing weight hole to a lower flare drilling (like 5-1/2" pin to PAP) it will increase flare AND increase reaction. This doesn't prove what you're saying.

I like your idea, but I'd like some more proof. Here is an experiment that would shed some light on what you are saying. Drill two of the same ball with similar specs. Drill one 5-1/2" pin to PAP pin above fingers. Drill the other 5-1/2" pin to PAP below the fingers. Throw them both and take pictures of the flare. Add a weight hole on both balls in the same position and distance from PAP. If what you say is true, then the flare should change more on the pin above ball.

What you suggest may have some merit, but to say that x-hole distance from pin is more important than x-hole distance from PAP defies logic. If you can increase flare or decrease flare with the position of a weight hole in respect to the PAP, then there is a position where flare does not change. ANY weight hole closer to the pin than that position is going to change flare more than a weight hole on that position. This disproves your hypothesis.

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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

you say "That is a really bad example. If you use a flare increasing weight hole to a max flare drilling (3-3/8" pin to PAP) the result is more than likely overflare and a tamer reaction." I understand about the overflare possibility.. but I'm saying that for a 3 3/8 pin to pap a hole on the pap won't increase the flare that much at all.
and what if the ball isn't overflaring.. wouldn't the fact that the x-hole on the pap increased flare more for the 5" pin to pap prove my theory.. you could look at the initial tracks and measure

but to use your test...
you said "Add a weight hole on both balls in the same position and distance from PAP. If what you say is true, then the flare should change more on the pin above ball." This isn't necessarily true either.. if you put an x-hole on the pap then they are both 5 1/2 inches from the pin and I would say the change would be the same..but I understand what you are saying.. I would say that if you did this and put a hole 2 inches from the PAP on both balls with one hole being 3 1/2 from the pin that is below the finger and the other one 6 3/4 from the pin above the fingers... that the one that is 6 3/4 from the pin will increase flare more.. something that may throw it off is that the pin below is already going to have less flare than the pin above.. but the test should be able to show the difference in change between the balls before and after the hole.

Also you say "If you can increase flare or decrease flare with the position of a weight hole in respect to the PAP, then there is a position where flare does not change."

a weight hole 3 3/8 from the pin is pretty much that spot and will change the flare the least..or course there will be some change but minimal.. this is because at 3 3/8 the hole is taking weight from a 45 deg on the core and taking equal weight from the top and side of the core thus changing the differential the least...

check out this ebonite site link.. they explain the x-hole theory in a way that goes along with what I am saying..

http://ebonite.com/resources/bowling_tip_detail/balance_holes

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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Author Topic: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP (Read 8450 times)

J_w73

X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

J_w73

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

kmanestor22

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

RichH

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

J_w73

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

kidlost2000

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

bluerrpilot

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

kmanestor22

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

J_w73

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

kmanestor22

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

J_w73

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

kmanestor22

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

J_w73

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

kmanestor22

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J_w73

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP