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Author Topic: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.  (Read 5720 times)

Ric Clint

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There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« on: June 15, 2005, 12:01:49 PM »
The link is:

http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=85571&ForumID=2&CategoryID=2

On the 2nd page I made a comment that said...

"So, it core shape doesn't matter and it's just the spec numbers that count... then why does a great ball designer like PHIL CARDINAL from Dyno Thane get all excited over the ENERGY's core shape explaining that the core made that ball go long and just have so much "energy" when it hit the pins if core shape doesn't matter?

Something doesn't add up!"


Would anybody from DYNO THANE care to comment?






Edited on 6/15/2005 7:59 PM
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Ishmael

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Re: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2005, 08:26:36 AM »
quote:
If the RG, diff and coverstock were the same wouldn't it be the same ball.  


No.  RG and diff values only show a generalized distribution of the cores mass.  The same numbers can be achieved with an infinite number of possible shapes.
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flacoman

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Re: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2005, 09:42:07 AM »
Core design is equal parts science and art. As long as humans and not robots throw the ball, it will always be that way!

My2c
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newguy

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Re: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2005, 11:34:11 AM »
2 different balls same numbers same coverstock same surface finish will not always roll the same. The shape of the the ball path is dictated by the geometry of the core. This is science, physics and math all rolled into one package. We do this kind of testing on a frequent bases, that's how we can build an arsenal. Case in point the thing lives the energy and the high energy.
Thing lives
2.50 .060
High energy
2.50 .060
performance is like day and night.
the energy
2.52 .060
again totally different than the thing lives.
numbers the same geometry of the core different.
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LuckyLefty

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Re: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2005, 05:53:42 PM »
This is the most rational discussion I've seen on this subject for awhile.

NO body yelling please stop!  You're both right!  Testing and observation and an open forum!

I've noticed that thing too!  You mean I have to hit my mark with this ball!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

C-G ProShop-Carl

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Re: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2005, 09:32:12 PM »
"This is the most rational discussion I've seen on this subject for awhile."



LL, do you think the reason is because of where the topic is located?
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Carl Hurd

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newguy

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Re: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2005, 09:42:40 AM »
Aussie,
I would have to disagree with you on that, I have over the years put out many balls that target 2.55 .055 and have made several with those number and different cores with the same cover. (see my initial post) We currently have 2 balls with the same numbers in the line and have totally different looks on the lane.
We try to have significantly different looks so you may not see the same numbers in new balls at the same time but if you look at our history you'll see many balls around the target numbers with different shapes to achieve different ball paths. 2.55 0.55 are safe numbers and perform well in the current environment on most conditions.
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newguy

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Re: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2006, 09:05:00 AM »
If this is true than every ball on the planet with a 2.50 low rg and a diff of .055 would roll identical. This is certainly not the case as we all know  since in our line we have balls with similar numbers yet different shapes and these all roll differently. Cover stocks being the same of course.
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tekneek

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Re: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2006, 03:36:02 PM »
Is that the shot I saw on tv, where the guy sits in the chair? Looked like shooting quail while they're on the ground. LOL
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Steve
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LuckyLefty

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Re: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2006, 03:38:26 PM »
I bowl in a wonderful piece of junk house.

16 feet short run over hard scrabble for the day.
Carrydown at 40 feet.

What is great however is there are some days that the ball almost looks like you threw it from a oiled lane onto pavement at 16 feet...I have had balls almost jump 4 boards at (literally) impact with the dry right over the arrows!
skid.....screech JUMP.

What is great is that one can see dramatic changes in ball reaction based on core orientation.  A kicked out cg will jump in this scenario 6 inches.  The stacked drilling will jump 4 inches and a cg back towards grip will only jump 2 inches.

Think core orientation doesn't effect midlane roll....come bowl on our midlane pavement shot!  Yummy for establishing handicap!  Remeber you'll never think a sport shot is hard again!  AND your average may go up on a sport condition...mine does.

Screeech!

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS as brilliant guy above says so well a regular league condition masks so well what is happening in the midlane transition...it cannot be seen by many guys eyes....but the screech shot above...helps even the BLIND see!
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Walking E

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Re: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2006, 05:33:33 PM »
quote:
I'm not convinced that you can throw the ball exactly the same way (revs, speed, leauch angle, etc., etc.) to actually be able to see a difference.  Even if you were lucky and happened to hit two shots in a row that were exactly the same, the oil pattern was different on the second shot than it was on the first.  


This is why these discussions always crack me up. Or when someone says something like "This ball's RG is 2.52 and this other one is 2.54, so they're totally different." HUH? Are you kidding me? There's practically no discernable difference in ball reaction in cases like this.
I think the RG and DIFF numbers are overrated in terms of ball reaction. Unless you're talking about a large variance in numbers, most bowlers wouldn't notice the difference. The shell is still easily the most important factor in ball reaction, so if the shells are the same and you have the same layout, you're gonna get basically the same reaction regardless of core shape unless the core densities (RG) and/or core instabilities (creating DIFF) are way different from each other.
Even different layouts can produce basically the same reactions. Remember the tip that Randy gave earlier this year where he had the Paradigm with two different layouts? The ball reaction was close enough on the two shots he threw to look practically the same (same results also), and whatever minimal difference there was in reaction could easily be adjusted for by moving a board or two or increasing/decreasing speed by 1 MPH or playing with the coverstock.
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newguy

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Re: There's a post in the Brunswick forum I'd like for you to read.
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2006, 10:07:49 PM »
NOT FOR THE WEAK OF HEART

precision has hit el nailo on el heado....
we measure a ball dynamics for USBC purposes on the x and y axis. The low rg and the diff the difference between x and y are used. There are an infinite number of values between these 2 axii. The rg is the distance the centroid (geometric center) is from the center of a revolving mass. Geometry dictates motion (easily seen under a controlled environment) simply because the low rg or the value of the centroid from the center is constant but the value of the y axis varies with the shape. This also plays onto my standing believe that the only true asymmetrical core is a single density shaped core. Than and only then can a true value be measured against the centroid to the furthest point and than to a lesser value to closer points. Each point will influence the performance at the ball migrates to its preferential axis. Whew!!!

Edited on 4/4/2006 10:07 PM
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