Post by: mainzer on January 24, 2010, 04:43:46 AM
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"His Loyalty couldnt be bought at any price
but it could be rented remarkably cheaply"
-Inquisitor Allendyne-
Founding Father of the BR Inquisition
MainzerPower
Post by: tizzle on January 24, 2010, 01:03:59 PM
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Hmm..Lets see what I have in this bag..Magical Action, a Nasty Spider, a very Sharp Noise, and a Spare Track.. how can I loose....
....HG-300(2006 w/Desert Heat)...299 (03/15/09 w/Agent Orange)...HS-776 (Hot Sauce Pearl & Ebonite Magic)
Post by: completebowler on January 24, 2010, 02:27:28 PM
quote:
yeah... ebonite looks to be making some good stuff lately... actually all there sister companies are as well. I am glad to see something different winning on the tour this year.. other then storm/roto!
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Hmm..Lets see what I have in this bag..Magical Action, a Nasty Spider, a very Sharp Noise, and a Spare Track.. how can I loose....
....HG-300(2006 w/Desert Heat)...299 (03/15/09 w/Agent Orange)...HS-776 (Hot Sauce Pearl & Ebonite Magic)
Yep...all four companies seem to be pumping out high quality stuff. Easily right there with anything available and the Mission might have a chance to stake claim to best ball.
I feel like Storm has been lacking innovation lately. The VE to me looked too similar to the Gravity and the Reign's are basically glorified T-Roads.
They better hope the Invasion is a hit.
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Post by: mainzer on January 24, 2010, 02:32:13 PM
I also Understand the Storm thing. I think they have been struggling in the R&D Dept the last while here.
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"His Loyalty couldnt be bought at any price
but it could be rented remarkably cheaply"
-Inquisitor Allendyne-
Founding Father of the BR Inquisition
MainzerPower
Post by: SKIDSNAP on January 24, 2010, 03:03:06 PM
I watched Kelly on Friday as well she really matched up with that ball...at Red Rock...on that pattern...
I hate to bust the positive Hopkinsville wave you have going here but seriously...
Complete: the Reign is a glorified T-Road? Totally different core shape.
Lacking innovation... can you explain that??
you better get your eyes checked...
Mainzer - Please explain the "struggling in the R&D department"....
The Columbia Brand Manager is telling the crowd at their seminars that they are still chasing the VG. It has been over a year and they still are chasing.
Why don't we let the season play itself out before we ordain any ball or company the best thing out there.
Congrats to Kelly and her landmark victory today. She has outworked and outplayed them all.
Post by: tizzle on January 24, 2010, 03:12:39 PM
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Hmm..Lets see what I have in this bag..Magical Action, a Nasty Spider, a very Sharp Noise, and a Spare Track.. how can I loose....
....HG-300(2006 w/Desert Heat)...299 (03/15/09 w/Agent Orange)...HS-776 (Hot Sauce Pearl & Ebonite Magic)
Post by: Strokewiththelefthand on January 24, 2010, 03:25:11 PM
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Formally LeftyHawse, Jim Jones.
I'm man enough to admit I stroke with the left hand and it feels good.
Mullans pro shop Richmond, Va.
J. C. Jones coaching solutions
Richmond, Va.
Post by: SKIDSNAP on January 24, 2010, 03:28:15 PM
"Out Hook" is a subjective term so what ever you mean by that is what ever you want to believe.
And the loss of reaction issue is still prevalent with the Hopkinsville brands.
Although if you understand the Turbo 2N1 data ALL balls change reaction in some form.
You issues with the VG is well documented on this site and you seem to be rather alone regarding this issue. But I have to ask why would you go 5 deep if you are having "problems" with this ball.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on January 24, 2010, 03:36:13 PM
quote:
Once again, the PBA sells another ball. LOL! Eventhough the ball looked good how about giving some credit to Kulick who made all the right adjustments. If that was the case, Mika, after the first match, sold a boat load of Pure Swings or whatever the name was. The condition was not about the ball but about the adjustment the bowlers made. Before we ordain the Mission as the ball of January 2010 let's give a little credit to the best bowler of the tourney. Congrats to Kelly for making the right adjustments. The show was great, she was great. The only thing that kinda turned me off was the cheesy "Mission Complete" ebonite promo at the end. I know Ebo is desperate to sell balls but come on. Let the lady enjoy her history making moment without having to make her add cheesy promos. The balls should sell themselves.
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Formally LeftyHawse, Jim Jones.
I'm man enough to admit I stroke with the left hand and it feels good.
Mullans pro shop Richmond, Va.
J. C. Jones coaching solutions
Richmond, Va.
I did not think it was cheesy at all. Remember when Walter years ago won a tourny with one of the Tude balls and proceeded to get on his post match interview and says "You have to have the right Attitude"? If we think that Ebonite put her up to that, not sure how bright we are. Kelly is a very smart girl and deserves everything happening to her right now.
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Steven Vance
Pro Shop Operator
Striking Results Pro Shop
Red Carpet Lanes
Duluth (NE Atlanta), Georgia
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: Balldoctor on January 24, 2010, 03:49:27 PM
Tyson said Red ball up 10. I am thinking Red Ball up every arrow.
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Ambassador Of Bowling
Post by: Strokewiththelefthand on January 24, 2010, 03:59:27 PM
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Formally LeftyHawse, Jim Jones.
I'm man enough to admit I stroke with the left hand and it feels good.
Mullans pro shop Richmond, Va.
J. C. Jones coaching solutions
Richmond, Va.
Post by: completebowler on January 24, 2010, 04:02:25 PM
quote:
Tizzle - Their Brand Manager said it himself at his seminar and at Bowl Expo this year their Sales Manager's were using the VG as the comparison to the Evolve.
"Out Hook" is a subjective term so what ever you mean by that is what ever you want to believe.
And the loss of reaction issue is still prevalent with the Hopkinsville brands.
Although if you understand the Turbo 2N1 data ALL balls change reaction in some form.
You issues with the VG is well documented on this site and you seem to be rather alone regarding this issue. But I have to ask why would you go 5 deep if you are having "problems" with this ball.
Well Skid my eyes are just fine. You mention that core shape is different from the T-Road to the Reign...so why don't you share with us all the difference in specs? It is a very subtle difference and considering it is widely accepted that coverstock accounts for around 70% of your reaction and core is around 10-15% how much difference do you expect to see?
The VG was very successful. The Gravity and Attitude are wonderful pieces. I think Storm offers great mid to low end products. I was not trying to bash them at all. All I said was the VE (2 parts pearl/1 part solid) played nearly exact to my Gravity. I could have simply tweaked the cover and had the exact same reaction.
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Post by: freak761 on January 24, 2010, 04:18:44 PM
Post by: tizzle on January 24, 2010, 04:19:56 PM
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Hmm..Lets see what I have in this bag..Magical Action, a Nasty Spider, a very Sharp Noise, and a Spare Track.. how can I loose....
....HG-300(2006 w/Desert Heat)...299 (03/15/09 w/Agent Orange)...HS-776 (Hot Sauce Pearl & Ebonite Magic)
Post by: completebowler on January 24, 2010, 04:20:39 PM
quote:
Tizzle - Their Brand Manager said it himself at his seminar and at Bowl Expo this year their Sales Manager's were using the VG as the comparison to the Evolve.
"Out Hook" is a subjective term so what ever you mean by that is what ever you want to believe.
And the loss of reaction issue is still prevalent with the Hopkinsville brands.
Although if you understand the Turbo 2N1 data ALL balls change reaction in some form.
You issues with the VG is well documented on this site and you seem to be rather alone regarding this issue. But I have to ask why would you go 5 deep if you are having "problems" with this ball.
Tizzle's experience with the VG is far from solitary. I have heard the same thing from over 30 sources. (reviews and in person) I seen it myself on my VG and am hearing it now with the Mutant (which I believe is R2X or a one off formulation)
Again....not trying to bash Storm/Roto. I simply call it as I see it. They have been at the top of the industry for a few years now and I think the Big 4 are about to go by them. I think this happens every few years because when your on top it is easy to get lazy and the competition below you is working hard to catch up/get better.
I throw everybody but Brunswick. I am by no means brand loyal. For the most part I throw Storm or Ebonite these days so again don't think I am simply trying to bash Storm....I just think the Big 4 are putting out better stuff in recent months.
The Invasion could change my mind on that but it didn't look super impressive to me when Mallot threw it a few weeks back.
Also just like you used to see nothing but Storm on t.v......nowadays it seems like Columbia/Track/Ebonite are showing up a ton.
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Post by: SKIDSNAP on January 24, 2010, 04:30:53 PM
The rg and diff numbers in conjunction with the core shape make up the magical 15% number you use.
If you got the chance to throw the Hyroad and the Reign side by side you would see a different hook shape.
That would be nice if Gravity Shifts were still around but the cover chemistry is different between that and the VE. Who am I to argue with the Ball of the Year.
Post by: completebowler on January 24, 2010, 04:46:33 PM
quote:
Complete - The numbers aren't the be all end all regarding ball reaction. Core shape also has an effect on ball reaction.
The rg and diff numbers in conjunction with the core shape make up the magical 15% number you use.
If you got the chance to throw the Hyroad and the Reign side by side you would see a different hook shape.
That would be nice if Gravity Shifts were still around but the cover chemistry is different between that and the VE. Who am I to argue with the Ball of the Year.
Well of course the Hyroad and Reign look different. The Hyroad is a two part solid one part pearl hybrid. Compare a Reign to a T-road pearl and tell me what you see? Reign of Fire to a T Road solid
And I know the Gravity and VE are different cover composition....I said so in my post. But they are very, very similar. As I said...no difference between the two if you know how to fine tune covers.
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Post by: SKIDSNAP on January 24, 2010, 05:04:43 PM
Okay let's take a T-Road Solid and a Reign of Fire or a Reign to a T-Road Pearl you will still see a difference in hook shape.
The numbers alone are not the be all and end all. The core shape helps determine hook shape.
Post by: chatnboy on January 24, 2010, 05:10:05 PM
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Go hard or go home!!!!!Bowl your best...ALWAYS!!!
Post by: completebowler on January 24, 2010, 05:21:06 PM
quote:
Complete - Let me repeat myself .... Core shape in conjunction with RG and Diff make up your magic 15%.
Okay let's take a T-Road Solid and a Reign of Fire or a Reign to a T-Road Pearl you will still see a difference in hook shape.
The numbers alone are not the be all and end all. The core shape helps determine hook shape.
One is a big balloon with out much of a stem (Roads) and one has a smaller bulb with a more pronounced stem (Reigns).
So you are telling me that this slight difference in shape in core makes all the difference in the world eh? Nevermind the ball has the exact same cover and near identical core specs?
Wow....you really must love the kool aid....lmao.
Next time you jump on people in a thread you should do some research on ball dynamics and the effect on motion.
Go look at the USBC studies....the sh!t your talking about has less effect on ball reaction than the humidity in the center.
LMAO!
But I am sure that Storm appreciates your ignorance. Then they can keep selling you old stuff with a new logo/scent.
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Post by: Balldoctor on January 24, 2010, 05:53:58 PM
Match up with that first.
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Ambassador Of Bowling
Post by: LaneHammer20 on January 24, 2010, 05:55:22 PM
Now the Mission did look really good today.
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What is sandbagging???
Post by: SKIDSNAP on January 24, 2010, 05:58:22 PM
We were talking about your 15%. Since the physics is beyond you, you back up to the 70%.
You are all about the numbers. I get it. Actual physics beyond the rg and diff numbers are beyond you. I get it. The numbers only work for you when you want them to.
I have read the ball motion study foward and backward in the summer of 2008 when USBC released it not the spoon fed interpretation that some companies are trying to explain to you this season.
But it your world......
Post by: i_throw_strikes on January 24, 2010, 06:07:24 PM
Post by: DougS on January 24, 2010, 06:12:33 PM
Post by: tburky on January 24, 2010, 07:02:18 PM
Post by: completebowler on January 24, 2010, 07:06:09 PM
quote:
Beat yourselves up, it is still about cover stock roughness average.
Match up with that first.
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Ambassador Of Bowling
Well Doc that's exactly what I am trying to explain to SkidTap. He jumped on me about 'core shape'. This is exactly what the ball companies want people to believe.
Now....if you take R2S solid in an Attitude Shift you will see a difference. Much stronger core AND asymmetric.
But if SkidTap's argument had any merit then all the single diamond L1 balls with PowerKoil 18 would be identical because they are the same shaped core. Nevermind that they changed the specs by moving little diamonds inside the SAME SHAPE and by CHANGING THE SPECS changed the motion.
As I said....CORE SHAPE has very little effect on ball motion unless it changes the specs. Since Storm did not do this with the Reigns they are GLORIFIED T-ROADS.
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Post by: Dan Belcher on January 24, 2010, 07:25:14 PM
quote:You're grossly over-simplifying this. Remember, the shape of the core itself is only one part of the total sum that is the core. You have to consider the shape, the density, the placement of those higher and lower density areas, and most importantly how the core is changed after you drill into it. So, yes, core shape DOES most certainly have an effect on how a ball rolls, even if it isn't just because of "how the core looks."quote:
Beat yourselves up, it is still about cover stock roughness average.
Match up with that first.
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Ambassador Of Bowling
Well Doc that's exactly what I am trying to explain to SkidTap. He jumped on me about 'core shape'. This is exactly what the ball companies want people to believe.
Now....if you take R2S solid in an Attitude Shift you will see a difference. Much stronger core AND asymmetric.
But if SkidTap's argument had any merit then all the single diamond L1 balls with PowerKoil 18 would be identical because they are the same shaped core. Nevermind that they changed the specs by moving little diamonds inside the SAME SHAPE and by CHANGING THE SPECS changed the motion.
As I said....CORE SHAPE has very little effect on ball motion unless it changes the specs. Since Storm did not do this with the Reigns they are GLORIFIED T-ROADS.
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Post by: completebowler on January 24, 2010, 07:25:28 PM
quote:
Beat yourselves up, it is still about cover stock roughness average.
Match up with that first.
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Ambassador Of Bowling
Exactly Doc...cover is the overwhelming factor in ball motion. Nothing else is close.
This guy is talking about 'core shape'. LoL.....top weight has more effect.
Surface will get you whatever matchup you need once you are in the neighborhood. These guys can go buy a VE cause it is the newest, greatest thing and I will simply pull my Gravity out, tweak the cover and have the exact same look.
Another post says 'the Reign is stronger downlane' and again I will alter my cover on a T Road and have the same look. Meanwhile....they can keep buying re-used, one off technology with new scents and new logos. Lol
Whatever.
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Post by: Dan Belcher on January 24, 2010, 07:28:34 PM
quote:You do realize that sanding a pearl doesn't give you the same look as the solid version of the same coverstock, right? Yes, you'll get a stronger read in oil, but you'll still get more skid in oil and more response to friction downlane because of the pearl's decreased elasticity. (Which is exactly why I also throw a sanded Gravity Shift instead of throwing a Virtual Gravity -- I never see enough oil in the heads to take advantage of solid coverstock on that core! I'd only get to use it for about a game before I'd be better off throwing the pearlized version)quote:close.
Beat yourselves up, it is still about cover stock roughness average.
Match up with that first.
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Ambassador Of Bowling
This guy is talking about 'core shape'. LoL.....top weight has more effect.
Exactly Doc...cover is the overwhelming factor in ball motion. Nothing else is
Surface will get you whatever matchup you need once you are in the neighborhood. These guys can go buy a VE cause it is the newest, greatest thing and I will simply pull my Gravity out, tweak the cover and have the exact same look.
Another post says 'the Reign is stronger downlane' and again I will alter my cover on a T Road and have the same look. Meanwhile....they can keep buying re-used, one off technology with new scents and new logos. Lol
Whatever.
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Post by: completebowler on January 24, 2010, 07:39:12 PM
quote:quote:You're grossly over-simplifying this. Remember, the shape of the core itself is only one part of the total sum that is the core. You have to consider the shape, the density, the placement of those higher and lower density areas, and most importantly how the core is changed after you drill into it. So, yes, core shape DOES most certainly have an effect on how a ball rolls, even if it isn't just because of "how the core looks."quote:
Beat yourselves up, it is still about cover stock roughness average.
Match up with that first.
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Ambassador Of Bowling
Well Doc that's exactly what I am trying to explain to SkidTap. He jumped on me about 'core shape'. This is exactly what the ball companies want people to believe.
Now....if you take R2S solid in an Attitude Shift you will see a difference. Much stronger core AND asymmetric.
But if SkidTap's argument had any merit then all the single diamond L1 balls with PowerKoil 18 would be identical because they are the same shaped core. Nevermind that they changed the specs by moving little diamonds inside the SAME SHAPE and by CHANGING THE SPECS changed the motion.
As I said....CORE SHAPE has very little effect on ball motion unless it changes the specs. Since Storm did not do this with the Reigns they are GLORIFIED T-ROADS.
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Dan I am not saying core shape has NO effect....I am simply saying it has a small, small effect on ball motion. I was just at the drilling/motion seminar by Mo Pinel last week. This discussion was covered. Until the core shape/pucks/dense pieces change the specs it has almost zero effect on overall motion.
There are 15-20 things according to the study that effect ball motion more. The top 7 are cover/friction issues. Thus, the ball has similar specs, exact same cover and therefore is really a new version of the T-Road line.
But if you guys believe it is the newest, greatest, bestest thing out.....go for it.
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Post by: Dan Belcher on January 24, 2010, 07:44:33 PM
quote:I'm not arguing that if has a huge impact, but it sounded like you were completely dismissing it. I know that I've seen both the T-Road Pearl and Reign thrown and there IS a difference, but it's only a couple boards at most, and the biggest difference is just in how quickly the Reign responds downlane. If you already had a brand new T-Road Pearl, there'd be no sense in buying the Reign. However, if you don't have one, or if your T-Road Pearl has a couple hundred games on it and doesn't have the same response to friction it once did, the Reign is exactly that -- an improved version and a more-than-worthy replacement. (I'm a sucker for the Reign -- best medium oil ball I've ever thrown)quote:quote:You're grossly over-simplifying this. Remember, the shape of the core itself is only one part of the total sum that is the core. You have to consider the shape, the density, the placement of those higher and lower density areas, and most importantly how the core is changed after you drill into it. So, yes, core shape DOES most certainly have an effect on how a ball rolls, even if it isn't just because of "how the core looks."quote:
Beat yourselves up, it is still about cover stock roughness average.
Match up with that first.
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Ambassador Of Bowling
Well Doc that's exactly what I am trying to explain to SkidTap. He jumped on me about 'core shape'. This is exactly what the ball companies want people to believe.
Now....if you take R2S solid in an Attitude Shift you will see a difference. Much stronger core AND asymmetric.
But if SkidTap's argument had any merit then all the single diamond L1 balls with PowerKoil 18 would be identical because they are the same shaped core. Nevermind that they changed the specs by moving little diamonds inside the SAME SHAPE and by CHANGING THE SPECS changed the motion.
As I said....CORE SHAPE has very little effect on ball motion unless it changes the specs. Since Storm did not do this with the Reigns they are GLORIFIED T-ROADS.
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Dan I am not saying core shape has NO effect....I am simply saying it has a small, small effect on ball motion. I was just at the drilling/motion seminar by Mo Pinel last week. This discussion was covered. Until the core shape/pucks/dense pieces change the specs it has almost zero effect on overall motion.
There are 15-20 things according to the study that effect ball motion more. The top 7 are cover/friction issues. Thus, the ball has similar specs, exact same cover and therefore is really a new version of the T-Road line.
But if you guys believe it is the newest, greatest, bestest thing out.....go for it.
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Post by: completebowler on January 24, 2010, 08:34:52 PM
quote:quote:I'm not arguing that if has a huge impact, but it sounded like you were completely dismissing it. I know that I've seen both the T-Road Pearl and Reign thrown and there IS a difference, but it's only a couple boards at most, and the biggest difference is just in how quickly the Reign responds downlane. If you already had a brand new T-Road Pearl, there'd be no sense in buying the Reign. However, if you don't have one, or if your T-Road Pearl has a couple hundred games on it and doesn't have the same response to friction it once did, the Reign is exactly that -- an improved version and a more-than-worthy replacement. (I'm a sucker for the Reign -- best medium oil ball I've ever thrown)quote:quote:You're grossly over-simplifying this. Remember, the shape of the core itself is only one part of the total sum that is the core. You have to consider the shape, the density, the placement of those higher and lower density areas, and most importantly how the core is changed after you drill into it. So, yes, core shape DOES most certainly have an effect on how a ball rolls, even if it isn't just because of "how the core looks."quote:
Beat yourselves up, it is still about cover stock roughness average.
Match up with that first.
--------------------
Ambassador Of Bowling
Well Doc that's exactly what I am trying to explain to SkidTap. He jumped on me about 'core shape'. This is exactly what the ball companies want people to believe.
Now....if you take R2S solid in an Attitude Shift you will see a difference. Much stronger core AND asymmetric.
But if SkidTap's argument had any merit then all the single diamond L1 balls with PowerKoil 18 would be identical because they are the same shaped core. Nevermind that they changed the specs by moving little diamonds inside the SAME SHAPE and by CHANGING THE SPECS changed the motion.
As I said....CORE SHAPE has very little effect on ball motion unless it changes the specs. Since Storm did not do this with the Reigns they are GLORIFIED T-ROADS.
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Dan I am not saying core shape has NO effect....I am simply saying it has a small, small effect on ball motion. I was just at the drilling/motion seminar by Mo Pinel last week. This discussion was covered. Until the core shape/pucks/dense pieces change the specs it has almost zero effect on overall motion.
There are 15-20 things according to the study that effect ball motion more. The top 7 are cover/friction issues. Thus, the ball has similar specs, exact same cover and therefore is really a new version of the T-Road line.
But if you guys believe it is the newest, greatest, bestest thing out.....go for it.
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Yes I do realize sanding a pearl is not the same as a solid. That's why I mentioned "tweaking" the cover on a Gravity. Not proposing sanding it down to 500 in order to make it look like a VG but the difference between it and a VE is small enough that more texture under a polish can achieve a near identical motion.
And yes you will see a diff between a new Reign and a used T-Road pearl. But I guarantee a brand new version of each drilled identically will give you zero perceptible difference. Too many of the same factors where it counts the most.
I also agree that if you liked T-Roads and can't find one these will be WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL replacements and great balls overall. The covers are awesome. I love R2S....have talked to Storm tech about getting a solid with the RAD+ in it because a block that dynamically different WILL be much different.
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Post by: tburky on January 25, 2010, 04:19:24 AM
Post by: completebowler on January 25, 2010, 05:18:35 AM
quote:
Storm still uses the RAD core overseas with the r2s covers.http://www.stormbowling.com/products/balls/exclusive
I know tburky...I have 4 of those overseas Dominations and I LOVE them....I think they are the best stuff Storm has ever put out on the high end. I loved my Attitude Shifts too (had 3 of them) which is why I have talked to the regional rep and online with the tech dept on whether they will put R2S Solid on that core.
There are no plans from what they tell me so I have to wait till I can stumble onto a Complete Dom (I think) cause it has the hybrid on it.
Tks for the link though.
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Post by: tburky on January 25, 2010, 09:07:42 PM
quote:quote:
Storm still uses the RAD core overseas with the r2s covers.http://www.stormbowling.com/products/balls/exclusive
I know tburky...I have 4 of those overseas Dominations and I LOVE them....I think they are the best stuff Storm has ever put out on the high end. I loved my Attitude Shifts too (had 3 of them) which is why I have talked to the regional rep and online with the tech dept on whether they will put R2S Solid on that core.
There are no plans from what they tell me so I have to wait till I can stumble onto a Complete Dom (I think) cause it has the hybrid on it.
Tks for the link though.
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I always liked the rad core. I wish they would use the r2s solid and pearl here on that core.
Post by: completebowler on January 26, 2010, 06:39:14 AM
quote:quote:quote:
Storm still uses the RAD core overseas with the r2s covers.http://www.stormbowling.com/products/balls/exclusive
I know tburky...I have 4 of those overseas Dominations and I LOVE them....I think they are the best stuff Storm has ever put out on the high end. I loved my Attitude Shifts too (had 3 of them) which is why I have talked to the regional rep and online with the tech dept on whether they will put R2S Solid on that core.
There are no plans from what they tell me so I have to wait till I can stumble onto a Complete Dom (I think) cause it has the hybrid on it.
Tks for the link though.
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I always liked the rad core. I wish they would use the r2s solid and pearl here on that core.
I have an Xtacy Dom (r2s pearl), just traded my Xtacy Tour (r2x pearl)to my brother and he shot 300/794 first night out with it. I have a World Dom (r2s pearl) NIB sitting in the closet.
The Rad+ core is Storm's strongest asymmetric ever which is another reason I am unhappy with the R and D there. They stepped away from that core because of to manufacture.
My brother picked up a Super Dom (r2x solid w mica) and it makes a VG look like a particle. Bigger and stronger in the back.
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Post by: EboStaff10 on January 26, 2010, 12:25:43 PM
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BOWL TO WIN
JenXXX Pro Shop
Post by: completebowler on January 26, 2010, 12:41:22 PM
quote:
the point of the Virtual Gravity is that the ball is strong but is lengthy...any company can make a strong early ball but the VG is strong, great length and continuous just as the Invasion is...now on the other side...every high end ball is going to decline if it is not maintened properly (no matter what company)...The Mission is, I feel, the match and even better than the VG...The Mission is very clean through the heads and continuous...I have talked to testers from hoptown and many have upwards of 200 games with no surface maintenance other than putting it back to factory 2000 and the ball is still strong. Ebonite corp. does have some great product out right now...end of story
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BOWL TO WIN
JenXXX Pro Shop
+1000....Ebonite is rebounding quite nicely these days. The Big 4 are ALL putting out very good products as evidenced by seeing more and more on Sundays.
I have pretty much shelved my Mutant in favor of the Magic Action. It seems to do everything just a tad better. Not bashing the Mutant...it is a great piece...just a testament to Ebonite International.
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Post by: River700 on February 01, 2010, 03:40:50 PM
quote:quote:quote:I'm not arguing that if has a huge impact, but it sounded like you were completely dismissing it. I know that I've seen both the T-Road Pearl and Reign thrown and there IS a difference, but it's only a couple boards at most, and the biggest difference is just in how quickly the Reign responds downlane. If you already had a brand new T-Road Pearl, there'd be no sense in buying the Reign. However, if you don't have one, or if your T-Road Pearl has a couple hundred games on it and doesn't have the same response to friction it once did, the Reign is exactly that -- an improved version and a more-than-worthy replacement. (I'm a sucker for the Reign -- best medium oil ball I've ever thrown)quote:quote:You're grossly over-simplifying this. Remember, the shape of the core itself is only one part of the total sum that is the core. You have to consider the shape, the density, the placement of those higher and lower density areas, and most importantly how the core is changed after you drill into it. So, yes, core shape DOES most certainly have an effect on how a ball rolls, even if it isn't just because of "how the core looks."QuoteBeat yourselves up, it is still about cover stock roughness average.
Match up with that first.
--------------------
Ambassador Of Bowling
Well Doc that's exactly what I am trying to explain to SkidTap. He jumped on me about 'core shape'. This is exactly what the ball companies want people to believe.
Now....if you take R2S solid in an Attitude Shift you will see a difference. Much stronger core AND asymmetric.
But if SkidTap's argument had any merit then all the single diamond L1 balls with PowerKoil 18 would be identical because they are the same shaped core. Nevermind that they changed the specs by moving little diamonds inside the SAME SHAPE and by CHANGING THE SPECS changed the motion.
As I said....CORE SHAPE has very little effect on ball motion unless it changes the specs. Since Storm did not do this with the Reigns they are GLORIFIED T-ROADS.
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Dan I am not saying core shape has NO effect....I am simply saying it has a small, small effect on ball motion. I was just at the drilling/motion seminar by Mo Pinel last week. This discussion was covered. Until the core shape/pucks/dense pieces change the specs it has almost zero effect on overall motion.
There are 15-20 things according to the study that effect ball motion more. The top 7 are cover/friction issues. Thus, the ball has similar specs, exact same cover and therefore is really a new version of the T-Road line.
But if you guys believe it is the newest, greatest, bestest thing out.....go for it.
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Yes I do realize sanding a pearl is not the same as a solid. That's why I mentioned "tweaking" the cover on a Gravity. Not proposing sanding it down to 500 in order to make it look like a VG but the difference between it and a VE is small enough that more texture under a polish can achieve a near identical motion.
And yes you will see a diff between a new Reign and a used T-Road pearl. But I guarantee a brand new version of each drilled identically will give you zero perceptible difference. Too many of the same factors where it counts the most.
I also agree that if you liked T-Roads and can't find one these will be WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL replacements and great balls overall. The covers are awesome. I love R2S....have talked to Storm tech about getting a solid with the RAD+ in it because a block that dynamically different WILL be much different.
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I have two paradigm passions, one a pro cg ball, and one a regular pin, cg, mas bias, and boy do they rev and hook even in oil, they are a beast! I also would like to see storm bring back the rad + core and put a a solid R2S cover on it. That would be one strong ball kind of like the vg and invasion combined.
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Bowling is fun, enjoy it, don't hate it
Post by: toomanytenpins on February 02, 2010, 01:12:37 AM
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my style, the art of bowling without bowling