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Author Topic: Ron's vid really shows some important things.  (Read 2789 times)

chitown

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Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« on: November 04, 2006, 05:36:16 AM »
Ron's vid on the Ebonite forum shows some interesting things.  This vid should be on Ebonites site if one wants to view it.  It's also in one of the posts on Ebonites forum ON this site.

I have said before that a bowler could build an arsenal out of one ball.  I did this with the Raw Hammer Doom.  I just watched the vids of the angular one and it just makes this point more solid.  In fact, if a bowler were to buy 3 angular ones and give them the same exact layout but changed the covers grits what else would you need?  Now you could replace the angular one with many balls.  I'm just using that as an example because of the vids I watched.

My favorite layout which is pin above the bridge and cg kicked right to 1oz and no balance hole.  I have this layout on every ball in my small arsenal but one.  I have a DOOM, PAIN, and BLACK WIDOW.  The BLACK WIDOW has the same pin distance but with the MB in the position it's in required a BALANCE HOLE.  That's the only difference.  I also have a NO MERCY coming.  That ball will have the pin above the bridge and the HART left of the thumb.  The only difference will be the cg and Hart location.

My point in this post is simple.  The cover is the most important part of a balls reaction.  Looking at the vids of the Angular one shows that this ball can be used on a ton of conditions with the correct cover grit.  Other balls can work like that as well.  I could take my BLACK WIDOW and change the cover grits to handle a ton of conditions.  It would be hard to just use 1 ball because a bowler wouldn't be able to change the covers during league or competition.  So it's would be wise to just buy 3 of the same ball and change the covers to handle the different conditions.  It would also be wise to find 1 layout that you really like and use it on every ball.  I'm serious about that.  If a bowler get's used to 1 layout's reaction it will be easier to adjust to changing balls.

I am glad that Ron made these vids.  The Angular one looks very impressive to say the least.  His vids also show how a bowler can use 1 ball with 1 layout and cover many conditions.  

So the next time you build a new arsenal think about this post.  Find 1 ball that you really like and buy 3 of them.  Drill each the exact same and change the cover with abralon pads.  4000 grit polished, 4000 grit, 1000 grit would be what I would do.

I may just do this for the heck of it.  I may find 1 ball and buy 3 of them and make a great arsenal.




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chitown

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2006, 02:07:06 PM »
quote:
No competitive tournament bowler would do this.  The reason is carry.  You are not going to get optimum carry with one drill pattern accross a variety of surfaces.  Playing with any ball, doesn't matter what, pin up isn't going to roll/carry as well on a long flooded condition.  Same goes for having a ball drilled pin below and to the right of ring, won't carry as well on a shorter, lighter pattern.  You can make any ball with any drilling get to the pocket, but when you are a high level player, playing in longer tournament formats where carrying that one extra 10 pin could make a difference of $1000s, you need variety.
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soup = morich weapon of mass bias
heavy = ebonite big one
medium/heavy = ebonite angular one
medium = morich seek & destroy (2000 abralon w/ ebonite particle polish)
med/light-light = ebonite crossfire
toast = columbia white dot


I understand what your saying however I disagree with one of your statements.  Saying that a pin up wont carry as well on longer heavier conditions is wrong!  This all depends on the amount of hand a bowler has.  It also matters what type of roll a bowler can put on the ball.

I'm sorry but I disagree with that.  How many bowlers use pin ups on longer patterns?  It's the cover that makes the most difference.

How many times have you come across a true flooded condition in a tourney?  I have bowled on a trued flooded lane condition before not 1 ball would work.  The only thing that could be done was point the ball to the pocket.  

Now on heavy long oil the cover is what matters the most.  The layout is determined by the bowlers style!  I have bowled on long heavy patterns and the duller surface with the pin up worked great.
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Edited on 11/4/2006 3:02 PM

J_Mac

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2006, 02:11:28 PM »
quote:
No competitive tournament bowler would do this.  The reason is carry.  You are not going to get optimum carry with one drill pattern accross a variety of surfaces.  Playing with any ball, doesn't matter what, pin up isn't going to roll/carry as well on a long flooded condition.  Same goes for having a ball drilled pin below and to the right of ring, won't carry as well on a shorter, lighter pattern.  You can make any ball with any drilling get to the pocket, but when you are a high level player, playing in longer tournament formats where carrying that one extra 10 pin could make a difference of $1000s, you need variety.
--------------------
you may score higher than me, but i'm a better bowler.

in the sack...
soup = morich weapon of mass bias
heavy = ebonite big one
medium/heavy = ebonite angular one
medium = morich seek & destroy (2000 abralon w/ ebonite particle polish)
med/light-light = ebonite crossfire
toast = columbia white dot


Are you a competitive bowler?  Have you been to a PBA regional ever?

A great deal of your higher average, big money tournament bowlers DO stick to one or two different layouts, but would never ignore the different characteristics that a different coverstock can make when the lanes really blow out in a later squad.

Chitown, what you're suggesting makes sense if you're only going to be bowling on a "THSish" lane pattern.

Lorok, you made some good points and I feel that the type of coverstock plays a much larger factor than how it is prepared or how the ball itself is drilled.

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DP3

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2006, 04:40:52 PM »
quote:



I understand what your saying however I disagree with one of your statements.  Saying that a pin up wont carry as well on longer heavier conditions is wrong!  This all depends on the amount of hand a bowler has.  It also matters what type of roll a bowler can put on the ball.



Open mouth, insert foot.  Amount of hand has nothing to do with carry.  Mike Scroggins and Dave Traber were in the top 8 in the PBA in pocket/carry percentage so that argument is mere speculation.  Carry is all about energy retention, angle of entry, coefficient of restitution and how much of it the ball has when it reaches the pins.  Different rotations, tilts, speeds at pin deck can all effect them, but amount of revrate is irrelevant.
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Greg T

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2006, 04:49:44 PM »
Which vid??




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Big Jake

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2006, 04:53:53 PM »
Greg T, I think he means this one...

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230-n-up-or-bust

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2006, 05:21:50 PM »
quote:
quote:
coefficient of restitution and how much of it the ball has when it reaches the pins.
[/font=Verdana]


I haven't heard this term before, could you explain?  Thanks.
--------------------
you may score higher than me, but i'm a better bowler.

in the sack...
soup = morich weapon of mass bias
heavy = ebonite big one
medium/heavy = ebonite angular one
medium = morich seek & destroy (2000 abralon w/ ebonite particle polish)
med/light-light = ebonite crossfire
toast = columbia white dot


In bowling terms, continuation throught the pindeck.  The ability for a ball to not lose it's drive while hitting an object.
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Inferno_256

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2006, 10:15:23 PM »
Coefficient Of Restitution or COR in golf refers to the spring like effect on the face of a golf club. The Higher the COR the more the face deforms at impact creating a higher ball speed. I don't know how this can be translated to bowling but it doesn't make sense to me.
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backswing_aplenty

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2006, 11:10:48 PM »
There's really only two main rules I follow when trying to get lined up in tournaments.

1)If it's a longer pattern I grab pin up balls
2)If it's a shorter pattern then the pin under balls come out.

The pin up balls i.e., pin over bridge, or pin over middle finger for me, have quicker cycle times in the hook to roll phase of the "skid, hook, roll" method of describing ball roll.

Pin down balls have slower and smoother transition times (cycles) and are better when there's a lot of friction to navigate through at the back of the pattern.

On a true flooded pattern it is true all balls pretty much work the same but the right drilling with help those who can find the pocket.  A 6" pin to PaP distance is the ideal for playing a flood shot.  You're not trying to stray away from the pocket and you need the core to ge into a roll.  The 6" ptp cycles the quickest once it sees friction, it won't cover too many boards, but it will stand up and provide optimal cycle time and carry.  

If you can ever see what some pros are throwing on the Cheetah pattern there's two schools of thought.
The pin down/under bridge or under middle finger in order to maximize the cycle time of the core.  The surface is adjusted in order to get to the pocket, the core optimizes the carry.
The other thought is pin up drillings past 5" pin to pap in order to get the ball to stand up early and hook out into the pocket still retaining energy to carry. Chris Barnes has used this method on several occasions when playing straight on TV.  It looks like he is trying to make the bal roll out, when he's trying to get the ball to hook out with a quick cycle drilling while allowing the ball to retain enough energy with a weaker shell to carry well.

It's these seemingly backward traits of specialized drillings that allow many on tour and higher average bowlers in general to average the 250's and 260's for a tournament.  It doesn't happen at every tournament but it's the lucky one that finds the right match of coverstock to get to the pocket and the right drilling to carry everything.

And of course all of this is from my experience as a higher rev player.  Take these museings with a caveat as the quick or slow cycle times may not be as visible with slower rev rates.  Denny Torgensons articles in BTM address these issues of building an arsenal as well as the brunswickinsiders.com website.  Rick Benoit has excellent write ups of tournaments and includes pics and blurbs about the balls and the drilings he chose for that week all outlining the slow or quick cycle response to friction.

Everyone aggrees the coverstock is the most important factor of a ball.  Without the right cover and right cover preperation you won't be able to hit the pocket.  Once the pocket is found carry needs to be addressed and this is done with drilling.

Just like a car.  A car has to have the right kind of tires (coverstock) in order to move.  Those tires can't work correctly without the right engine (core).  And that engine can only push the car so far without the right transmission (Mass Bias).  But that's another musing.


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chitown

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2006, 12:32:12 AM »
quote:
quote:



I understand what your saying however I disagree with one of your statements.  Saying that a pin up wont carry as well on longer heavier conditions is wrong!  This all depends on the amount of hand a bowler has.  It also matters what type of roll a bowler can put on the ball.



Open mouth, insert foot.  Amount of hand has nothing to do with carry.  Mike Scroggins and Dave Traber were in the top 8 in the PBA in pocket/carry percentage so that argument is mere speculation.  Carry is all about energy retention, angle of entry, coefficient of restitution and how much of it the ball has when it reaches the pins.  Different rotations, tilts, speeds at pin deck can all effect them, but amount of revrate is irrelevant.
--------------------
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Hoss Central Inc.
Respect the Game




Re-read my post reply bud and stop spouting off at the mouth.  I never said rev rate was the key to carry.  I was talking about pin above the finger layouts being used on longer patterns.

I have used pin above on longer patterns and have had great success.  If you take a higher rev rate player and have him drill a ball to roll early it's not going to give a good reaction even on longer patterns.  This is what I was talking about.

So why don't you open your mouth and insert your foot for not understanding and reading the post reply!

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Edited on 11/5/2006 1:45 AM

chitown

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2006, 12:47:45 AM »
Another thing you guys fail to realize is the bolwers style and game.  I have a higher rev rate.  I also have a high ball track.  I never use pin below the finger drillings anymore.  I have no need for them.

If one thinks that on longer patterns a pin down drilling is what's needed for better carry is wrong!  There are too many factors involved to make a statement like that.

Let's say the bowler uses and end over end release when faced with heavy long oil.  A pin down layout will encourage the ball to roll early thus not being good for this type of bowler's release.  Pin down drillings tend to be smoother at the breakpoint.  How far the pin is from the bowlers pap is what determins how soon it will get into it's roll.  Now that's from a drilling layout prespective.  The cover grit of the ball is also a very important part of how soon the ball will get into it's roll.

I have and do bowl on long oil patterns all the time.  I bowl on difficult patterns every week in my big money league.  These are the toughest patterns I have ever bowled on.  We are using 5 of them this season.  Not one of them is a blocked great wall of China.  I have bowled in this league for 4 years now.  So I have some good experience with difficult patterns that good pin carry is not always there. I use 1 pin location on all of my bowling balls.  If I want a ball to roll a little earlier from the layout I will kick the cg far enough right and add a balance hole to achevie this.  I don't have to put a pin down layout on the ball for better carry.  That is just crazy to think that!

I feel that you guys should really think about the statements you make like this "pin up drilling are not good for carry on longer patterns".  This is just not true.  You are way off base with this and are giving wrong info that others may take as being true.  This site is good because us bowlers can learn from others.  I just don't like it when one gives false info before doing any kind of research on it.
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Edited on 11/5/2006 1:51 AM

chitown

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2006, 12:50:46 AM »
Another point I would like to make is this.  You don't need a ton of diferent layouts to get better carry.  That is also not true.  There are several pro's that don't use a lot of different layouts on there equipment.  So to say that a bowler needs to have a bunch of different layouts is wrong.

Have any of you guys heard of using different hand positions to give a different roll on the ball?  Have you thought that maybe a bowler would change his release to give him better angle to the pocket for better pin carry?  Not everyone grabs another ball to achevie better pin carry.  Sometimes a small hand position change is all that's needed.

Lorok I know you have good intentions but really you should leanr a little more about the game before you give wrong info to others.  I know from your profile that your new to bowling.  I'm not trying to be an AS# but I just don't want others to get the wrong info.


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Edited on 11/5/2006 1:56 AM

Gunny

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Re: Ron's vid really shows some important things.
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2006, 07:15:46 PM »
way to explain it chitown.  all my balls are drilled pin up, and
close to the same location.  but all have close MB locations, and
all have different surface preps for different reactions.  i like you
have a high rev rate with high track, and my one ball that was
drilled pin down (below middle and ring) just didnt fit my game.  seemed to get
crazy reactions from it.  so had it plugged and put pin above ring
finger, and she's a beast now.  everyone has a different game, just
find what works for you.  me, i dont like to fluff the ball cause i cant
seem to carry.  so i use different cover preps to help.  just my 3cents.