Sometimes I don't like what I see.  I"ve watched Belmo, Simonson, and now Maldanado, throw away a tournament by trying to use a urethane ball when it was obvious even to an amateur that was not the right ball to be trying to use.  This week DJ Archer spent the whole game trying to find a ball when it was obvious he needed to down grade his ball a bunch, not one at a time.

Sometimes I don't like what I see.  I"ve watched Belmo, Simonson, and now Maldanado, throw away a tournament by trying to use a urethane ball when it was obvious even to an amateur that was not the right ball to be trying to use.  This week DJ Archer spent the whole game trying to find a ball when it was obvious he needed to down grade his ball a bunch, not one at a time.

You should really go to the venue and see first hand what’s happening before you get on here and just type anything. It happens very fast and these guys in general have a very good idea what’s going on. Add to that they only get 5 frames. This isn’t your Thursday night mixed league with your wife.

The toughest thing about urethane is that can go from functional to worthless quickly and with no warning.

AMEN!!!

Most of us who don't throw it 19-20 mph would be better off with reactive with 1-2" pin to PAP.  They still hook, but more predictably and carry for more than a game...



 

Northface   I will not get into a P------contest with you.   I have been there and done that.   I see bowlers becoming dependent on "ball reps" making decisions for them.  That's not good.   The game has become more complex, I agree.  But, still no reason for a "pro bowler" staying with a ball that doesn't give him a chance to win.  Is the "Bonus" for using a ball on TV gotten to be worth more than the prize money? 

Quote from: bullred on March 08, 2022, 06:45:20 PM

Northface   I will not get into a P------contest with you.   I have been there and done that.   I see bowlers becoming dependent on "ball reps" making decisions for them.  That's not good.   The game has become more complex, I agree.  But, still no reason for a "pro bowler" staying with a ball that doesn't give him a chance to win.  Is the "Bonus" for using a ball on TV gotten to be worth more than the prize money? 

😐

Personally after watching some of the vlogs like Brad and Kyle; I dont understand the need for ball reps.  The bowlers are intelligent enough that they know what ball they should be throwing.  Thats the reason for the practice session.  Gives them an opportunity to try multiple pieces and then determine if they need to hit the truck or just make a surface adjustment to what they already have.  Even with having 20+ balls in their possession when they first arrive at a stop, a good majority of the bowlers competing hit the truck at one point or another and drill something.  Prather even said, "If you are not drilling, you are not trying." 

Because pro sports teams don't all have a dozen coaches on the bench, and pro golfers don't each have their own caddies?  Why can't bowling have reps?  And with all the urethane usage on tv, you think they're concerned about the tv ball bonus?  When do you ever see a brand new ball on tv any more?  "Dependent" on ball reps? What?

Northface   I will not get into a P------contest with you.   I have been there and done that.   I see bowlers becoming dependent on "ball reps" making decisions for them.  That's not good.   The game has become more complex, I agree.  But, still no reason for a "pro bowler" staying with a ball that doesn't give him a chance to win.  Is the "Bonus" for using a ball on TV gotten to be worth more than the prize money?

Things can change quickly, you have a single game, and in a doubles tournament, you have 5 frames, or 5 shots basically if you bowl the one game.  You can get faked out in practice, and just getting a bad hit doesn't mean instantly make a big adjustment.  If you didn't see the adjustments Butturff made, then you weren't looking very closely, just because he stayed in the same area didn't mean he wasn't making adjustments, and especially on the left side you quite often have to figure out how to play the same zone or area a different way.  We don't have all the free hook and midlane stability the right side has. 

This happened to me in league last night, and it took 7 frames of me making adjustments and trying to figure it out before I had to move.  Tried a few balls out in practice, last few shots found something solid, started with that ball.  First frame was a hard wrap 7, that's not something to adjust on, 2nd frame was a strike, 3rd frame was another hard wrap 7, ok maybe we do something different on that lane next time.  4th frame was a flat 7, so maybe we're already seeing the lanes settle down, time to do something.  Slowed my speed down in the 5th frame, looked better, strike.  Did the same thing in the 6th frame, but got it in a little, ball takes off for a 2-4-7-8, great.  7 frame, went from a solid strike right to a weak 7-10, so I finally decided to get out of the ball. 

So 9/, X, 9/, 9/, X, 63, X, 7-10 and nothing to show for 6 great shots and one marginal one because apparently I got faked out in practice.  On tv, your day is done at that point, and in the context of the doubles tournament, I'd have left a couple wrap 7s and a flat 7 on 5 great shots during which I made an adjustment and been done because I either got a bad read in practice or transition started at the wrong time.  Butters made at least two adjustments in those 5 frames, and just didn't get the hits, so I don't get the take on any of this at all. 

Quote from: bullred on March 07, 2022, 10:55:46 AM

Sometimes I don't like what I see.  I"ve watched Belmo, Simonson, and now Maldanado, throw away a tournament by trying to use a urethane ball when it was obvious even to an amateur that was not the right ball to be trying to use.  This week DJ Archer spent the whole game trying to find a ball when it was obvious he needed to down grade his ball a bunch, not one at a time.

According to the most recent Brad and Kyle vlog; Brad walks us into the area where the TV pair is located and it is completely separate (different part of the building) from the lanes where they did the qualifying and match play.  By his own admission he states they play pretty different but it was urethane that got Maldo and Osku to the TV finals.  But I was shocked to see him using a "weak" urethane on the longer of the two patterns.  Conversely; Sterner used an Infamous on the same lane and his look was terrible as well. 

My question....is where were the ball reps during warmups and what were they seeing that led to them picking the Black Hammer and Proton for Maldo and Archer?  What was the ball rep seeing that led to the Infamous as the ball of choice for Sterner?  As good as Kent's look was (and he had room); I am surprised nobody tried to play on top of his line.  Butturff has gotten to a point he is too reliant on the Purple Hammer.  His look was not very good and he did not adjust one single time.  Even after the first two flat 7 pins; Specto still showed his ball going over the 12 board the entire game.  Kent and Tackett won simply because they played to their strengths (Kent playing straighter and Tackett wheeling on it from 4th-5th arrow).

Things can change quickly, you have a single game, and in a doubles tournament, you have 5 frames, or 5 shots basically if you bowl the one game.  You can get faked out in practice, and just getting a bad hit doesn't mean instantly make a big adjustment.  If you didn't see the adjustments Butturff made, then you weren't looking very closely, just because he stayed in the same area didn't mean he wasn't making adjustments, and especially on the left side you quite often have to figure out how to play the same zone or area a different way.  We don't have all the free hook and midlane stability the right side has. 

This happened to me in league last night, and it took 7 frames of me making adjustments and trying to figure it out before I had to move.  Tried a few balls out in practice, last few shots found something solid, started with that ball.  First frame was a hard wrap 7, that's not something to adjust on, 2nd frame was a strike, 3rd frame was another hard wrap 7, ok maybe we do something different on that lane next time.  4th frame was a flat 7, so maybe we're already seeing the lanes settle down, time to do something.  Slowed my speed down in the 5th frame, looked better, strike.  Did the same thing in the 6th frame, but got it in a little, ball takes off for a 2-4-7-8, great.  7 frame, went from a solid strike right to a weak 7-10, so I finally decided to get out of the ball. 

So 9/, X, 9/, 9/, X, 63, X, 7-10 and nothing to show for 6 great shots and one marginal one because apparently I got faked out in practice.  On tv, your day is done at that point, and in the context of the doubles tournament, I'd have left a couple wrap 7s and a flat 7 on 5 great shots during which I made an adjustment and been done because I either got a bad read in practice or transition started at the wrong time.  Butters made at least two adjustments in those 5 frames, and just didn't get the hits, so I don't get the take on any of this at all. 

Quote from: TWOHAND834 on March 07, 2022, 11:37:44 AM

Quote from: bullred on March 07, 2022, 10:55:46 AM

Sometimes I don't like what I see.  I"ve watched Belmo, Simonson, and now Maldanado, throw away a tournament by trying to use a urethane ball when it was obvious even to an amateur that was not the right ball to be trying to use.  This week DJ Archer spent the whole game trying to find a ball when it was obvious he needed to down grade his ball a bunch, not one at a time.

According to the most recent Brad and Kyle vlog; Brad walks us into the area where the TV pair is located and it is completely separate (different part of the building) from the lanes where they did the qualifying and match play.  By his own admission he states they play pretty different but it was urethane that got Maldo and Osku to the TV finals.  But I was shocked to see him using a "weak" urethane on the longer of the two patterns.  Conversely; Sterner used an Infamous on the same lane and his look was terrible as well. 

My question....is where were the ball reps during warmups and what were they seeing that led to them picking the Black Hammer and Proton for Maldo and Archer?  What was the ball rep seeing that led to the Infamous as the ball of choice for Sterner?  As good as Kent's look was (and he had room); I am surprised nobody tried to play on top of his line.  Butturff has gotten to a point he is too reliant on the Purple Hammer.  His look was not very good and he did not adjust one single time.  Even after the first two flat 7 pins; Specto still showed his ball going over the 12 board the entire game.  Kent and Tackett won simply because they played to their strengths (Kent playing straighter and Tackett wheeling on it from 4th-5th arrow).

Luke,

Here is what happened to me in league this past Monday Night.  I pulled out my Beast at box finish, with a layout of 45 x 4.5 in my trio league and during practice, I had a pretty good look.  First game, I started with a double, followed by solid 9, strike, solid 10.  After the solid 10, I realized I had too much angle on the backend.  Even starting with 3 strikes in the first 5 frames, I pulled out my Scorpion, box finish and 30 x 4.5 layout (yep, I am the same guy that goes by vance836 when commenting on your YT channel), and proceeded to miss only twice the rest of the night.  I go 258-279-279 for 816 leaving only 2 solid 9s and 2 solid 10s. 

While I do understand you can get "faked out" and only have 5 shots; when you leave a flat 10 or flat 7 and you know you threw it good, that should be the indicator you are using the wrong ball or need to make a big move.  Solid corner pins are one thing where a board move with the feet can make the difference between leaving one and carrying another.  But not flat corner pins.  This is especially true when throwing a urethane.  While you may get away with it with the UC3 and maybe the Pink Widow; I am not sure there is another urethane that you can move into 3rd arrow and wheel it out to 5 and get it back with enough energy to kick the corners out.  Plus, while you do mention the left side does not have as much lane friction as the right side due to way less traffic; the volume of oil is also lighter to help try to even that out on a lot of patterns which is why on Dragon, lefties could get the ball back from first arrow on a 45 foot pattern and a right hander could not.  My biggest point regarding Butturff is that ever since he had that 1-2 year period where he dominated; he has become too reliant on that Purple Hammer to a point that is all he ever throws on TV and has been called out by Randy several times this past year or so when telling viewers which ball the players are using.  Knowing you only have 5 shots; if I am leaving a flat corner pin; I am either making a bigger move and/or switching to a different ball and finding more oil up front because there is no wasted time.  The best are the best because they make the change when the need arises.  Look at Belmo once this year when he switched balls in the 9th or 10th when he needed a hit to win the game.  Also look at Simo when he changed to the Reality and made the big move left to win his 3rd major.  Conversely, Wesley Low makes one show and his look was god awful with the Blue Tank.  Yet, he used it the entire game like it was the only thing in his bag.  That will come with experience though.