Author Topic: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy (Read 3894 times)

scotts33 · « **on:** November 14, 2006, 03:22:06 AM »

OK...here's the question for you No Mercy guru's.

I've got one basic #1 layout. Pin next to ring HART just over from my first ring on my track....left of my thumb about an 1 1/2". <PAP is 4 7/8" over and 0> Looks like a 135 deg. layout. I have a X hole above my NAP about an 1" and drilled about 2" deep 1/2" X hole to make NM legal and won't track won't clip X hole. It has 3/4 oz. negative side right now.

During use, I have noticed great results on heavy mediums with no carry down great drive and carry. During and after transition, I am getting less drive and weaker hits in the pocket. It's OOB right now with Doc's Elixir. NM picks up lane shine quickly.

Thinking about taking it back to OOB 4000 abralon sanded before tonight and see how I do.

What do the guru's think about taking out more negative side weight to make it closer to 0?

Thanks for the help!
--------------------
Scott

scotts33 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 14, 2006, 01:47:43 PM »

What did I make it too difficult boys?

Wondering if taking out the negative side weight will make it that much more of a harder hooking ball on the back end? Or should I think more about the cover?

I am medium speed 16.5 at the arrows, 325-350 rev tweener.

Give me your best educated guess. All opinions appreciated.

--------------------
Scott

Joe Jr · « **Reply #2 on:** November 14, 2006, 01:50:50 PM »

Negative side weight won't affect your ball reaction.
--------------------
- Joe
Formerly Brunswick Lefty
Banned under the user name Richard Cranium

ME throwing STORM? Yea I don't quite believe it either.

scotts33 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 14, 2006, 01:53:02 PM »

quote:
Negative side weight won't affect your ball reaction.

How so Joe? I'd think taking it out would allow it to roll harder on the backend.....yes/no. Please explain. A statement without an explanation is no help to the uninformed.

Thanks!
--------------------
Scott

scotts33 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 14, 2006, 02:11:41 PM »

quote:
Because the coverstock will have the biggest influence on ball reaction. Taking out an oz or 2 of static sideweight will have no influence on the ball reaction. Cover, pin position, MB placement, then the location, size and depth of a weight hole.

OK.....I'd pretty much agree with that. What I want to know is that the No Mercy being a lil more odd set up will the static weight have any more influence that other normally set up asymmetric's?
--------------------
Scott

Wallshot · « **Reply #5 on:** November 14, 2006, 03:59:44 PM »

I know the thinking with high MB equipment such as the BW is that static weights have no effect on the reaction. Well, I have a BW drilled with the cg off center and to the left (I'm a rh player)resulting in 1/2 oz. negative weight. This ball reacts EXACTLY like the old two piecers when drilled negative. On the right condition it's beautiful as the neg. weight gives it a hook set reaction but on certain other conditions it hits weak as it is going away from the pocket at the last minute.

Compare the above to my other BW drilled with 3/8ths positive. It shows a continuous right to left motion through the entire lane...it never stops hooking.

I still believe in the physics of static weight and how they affect a balls inertia, MB or not.

The rationale that taking out an ounce or less of sideweight on a 15 or 16 pound ball will have no effect is to ignore the basic physics of inertia. Once that ball is set in motion that 1 ounce of side weight is magnified many times over. Take a look at Brunsnicks video on track flaring x-holes and you'll understand what I'm talking about. I had a Storm XXX that I wanted to set up in the pocket better. I took it into the pro shop between practice games and had the x-hole drilled deeper to give it 1/2 oz negative weight. I then threw it and immediately noticed the difference in reaction.

So, yes, try getting some of that neg weight out and I think you will definitely notice a difference.

Edited on 11/14/2006 4:52 PM

leftehh- LG · « **Reply #6 on:** November 14, 2006, 04:03:43 PM »

the reaction may not be EXACTLY the same( and by that meaning less than a board), but the BALL PATH will. HUMANS ARE NOT ROBOTS. WE WILL NOT THROW THE BALL EXACTLY THE SAME. SO THE LITTLE DIFFERENCE REALLY WONT MATTER NOW NOW WILL IT? But of course static weights is a dead subject on this site.
--------------------
Bowl to Win!

Edited on 11/14/2006 4:56 PM

MegaMav · « **Reply #7 on:** November 14, 2006, 04:40:55 PM »

quote:
Also.. I think I heard something that Brunswick did a test using cg placement and side weight placement. They drilled 2 Scorchin' Inferno's.. One with pin above bridge and cg kick 45* and then another drilled pin above bridge and cg 135*.. And there was no reaction change.. and that would mean no effect in static weights.

one more reason why static restrictions should be lifted, or at least softened.
let the ignorant ones pile on 5 ounces of side weight, and SWEAR it makes all the difference in the world.
--------------------
USBC Certified Bowler
2005-06 Average: 197 (Non-THS)

Arsenal Details | My Season

anotherwindup · « **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2006, 10:44:19 PM »

side weight no madda
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
'06-'07 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"

http://www.hammerbowling.com/hammertalk/forumdisplay.php?f=2

njv29 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 14, 2006, 11:37:09 PM »

quote:
Compare the above to my other BW drilled with 3/8ths positive. It shows a continuous right to left motion through the entire lane...it never stops hooking.

The rationale that taking out an ounce or less of sideweight on a 15 or 16 pound ball will have no effect is to ignore the basic physics of inertia. Once that ball is set in motion that 1 ounce of side weight is magnified many times over. Take a look at Brunsnicks video on track flaring x-holes and you'll understand what I'm talking about. I had a Storm XXX that I wanted to set up in the pocket better. I took it into the pro shop between practice games and had the x-hole drilled deeper to give it 1/2 oz negative weight. I then threw it and immediately noticed the difference in reaction.

It was not the change in sideweight that affected the ball reaction, it was the change in mass which in turn changed the RG differential. Drilling an x-hole deeper changed the amount of flare you were getting from the ball, and therefore changed the way the ball came off of the dry.

With regards to your two Black Widows, of course they will react differently, to get the different side weights you have to have the mass bias in two completely different spots. Again, the difference in reaction is not due to the difference in side weight but because of the difference in mass bias positions. That's the whole point of having asymmetrics! To get the negative side weight in your first black widow, you probably drilled the mass bias in your track or under your thumb. This usually gives a smooth, kind of weak hook-set arc off of the dry. With 3/8ths oz. positive side weight you must have the mass bias right of your thumb and closer to your PAP. This results in a more continuous, hard arcing reaction. The results are just as you described them, just not because of what you said caused them.

Wallshot · « **Reply #10 on:** November 15, 2006, 12:24:22 AM »

Actually, both BW's have the same MB placement (as I heard that Doug Kent advised against placing the MB anywhere further out than just right of the thumb). The negative weighted one was done label shift because the pin and cg were way out of line with the MB. In order to keep the MB about 1 inch RIGHT of the THUMB we layed the cg out to be just left of midline. The only difference between the two balls is pin and cg placement (BW #1 has the pin above the bridge and cg to the left; BW #2 has pin above and slightly to the right outter quadrant of the ring finger with cg directly below).

But no sense in beating a dead horse. This topic has been around on various forums and would not still arise if indeed there wasn't some anecdotal evidence that static weights do affect a bowling balls reaction to some extent and since I am in that camp I definitely take them into consideration when laying a ball out no matter how strong the MB is.

anotherwindup · « **Reply #11 on:** November 15, 2006, 10:44:32 AM »

quote:
But no sense in beating a dead horse. This topic has been around on various forums and would not still arise if indeed there wasn't some anecdotal evidence that static weights do affect a bowling balls reaction to some extent and since I am in that camp I definitely take them into consideration when laying a ball out no matter how strong the MB is.

It is a dead horse, but what the hell.

It only arises, because some "old schoolers" won't see the blinding light, and therefore, they continue to ask questions concerning statics.

I have a ball with 1.5 oz of side weight....to remove side weight what do you do? Hmmm drill a hole......what does that do? ....Changes ball dynamics......that change ball reaction.....Ok, now was it the hole or the weight.....

Chicken or the egg??

--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
'06-'07 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"

http://www.hammerbowling.com/hammertalk/forumdisplay.php?f=2

scotts33 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 15, 2006, 11:19:09 AM »

quote:

It is a dead horse, but what the hell.

It only arises, because some "old schoolers" won't see the blinding light, and therefore, they continue to ask questions concerning statics.

I may be an old schooler Jason but the No Mercy is definietly not an old school nor even newer school manufactured ball. There is NO such thing as a stupid question. ONLY dumb folks that don't ask questions. That's what a forum is for..sorry if I ask questions that ruffle your feathers or anyone else on this topic for that matter.

The No Mercy with it's different drilling instructions do raise questions that I or others may not "see the light".

No wonder, I steer clear of the Hammer forum.....sheesh. If, I had asked some other "dumb" question ie. the Roto Grip forum I would have probably gotten a direct answer.

--------------------
Scott

chitown · « **Reply #13 on:** November 16, 2006, 11:13:39 PM »

ttt
--------------------
GO BEARS! Super Bowl bound!

Author Topic: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy (Read 3894 times)

scotts33

Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

scotts33

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

Joe Jr

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

scotts33

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

scotts33

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

Wallshot

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

leftehh- LG

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

MegaMav

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

anotherwindup

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

njv29

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

Wallshot

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

anotherwindup

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

scotts33

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy

chitown

Re: Taking Out Negative Weight on a No Mercy