Post by: Strider on August 09, 2008, 03:26:51 AM
I believe that Ebonite's covers are prone to a little too much variation from ball to ball. A touch too much or too little plasticizer, maybe they cure a little too fast or too slow, I don't know. For every Black Widow (just using a popular ball as an example) that hooked off the lane or kept hooking/hitting strong for many games, I've seen just as many that were much milder or didn't act near the same after X amount of games. You just don't see this constant complaint from other manufacturers.
Remember when Brunswick was having cover issues? Classic Zones and Smokin' Infernos (was there a third one?) were given new pin colors and released as different balls (blems?) because the covers cured too fast and the balls didn't hook near as intended. I believe Ebonite has a similar problem to a lesser degree. There was a huge difference between a red pin and a green pin Classic Zone, but I've seen close to the same difference on some Ebonite/Hammer balls. I haven't seen too many Columbia or Track balls, but I haven't seen the same "problem", at least yet.
I have a Black Widow Bite that I'll use as an example. The ball was marketed as a slightly bigger version of the original Black Widow. Mine doesn't handle near the oil or have near the back end as most of the BW's I saw. I like the ball a lot on shorter PBA type patterns, but the ball didn't fit in my arsenal where I intended. My old Storm Tour Power runs circles around it on heavier patterns. Another guy in my league has a Bite that flares a ton and hooks a lot more than mine. He's got a little more hand than me and drilled his a little stronger, but the difference is night and day.
I'm not trying to start a whine fest, but I'd like to hear other's opinions. I'd also love to hear from people in the industry to see if I'm on the right track.
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Post by: cbae on August 09, 2008, 12:39:46 PM
If you don't have a weight hole try drilling a weight hole 1 1/2" - 2" down from your PAP and you should see stronger performance.
Post by: charlest on August 09, 2008, 12:59:13 PM
quote:
I assume you're referring to the Bite within your photos. The layout is not close to the layout of your Tour Power. If you would of drilled the Bite with the same layout you'll see the Bite is stonger then now.
If you don't have a weight hole try drilling a weight hole 1 1/2" - 2" down from your PAP and you should see stronger performance.
My opinion:
Probably not true.
The Tour Power starts off with a much weaker and older coverstock and has a very low flare potential. By design, the Tour Power is at a minimum 2 degrees weaker than the Black Widow, no less the BW Bite. If Strider can use his Tour Power on PBA patterns, his BW Bite should be strong enough to be used on such heavy oil patterns as is rarely found. It ALMOST BE too strong for even the Shark pattern. PLUS both are at the same sanding level (1000 grit = 2000 grit Abralon which uses the FEPA grading system). On top of all that, Strider does not exactly have a fluffer release.
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Post by: cbae on August 09, 2008, 01:17:15 PM
Post by: Strider on August 09, 2008, 01:22:44 PM
The weight hole you describe should decrease flare in anything. Why would you suggest something you aren't sure of? I'm on my second weight hole now (no photo). The first was 2" past my PAP along the grip center (Brunswick's "flare increasing position). That did absolutely nothing for the ball. Since then, I plugged that and put one on the MB (MoRich's gradient line balance hole system). The PSA was confirmed by a determinator The ball is a little stronger now, but didn't make a giant difference. I bowl on THS and if you look on the miscellaneous forum, you'll see my summer PBA Experience log. I also bowl a summer sweeper once a week that consists of three different sport patterns across six lanes. I'm not just looking at the ball on a THS which makes every thing look the same. Heck, I've subbed twice on a THS over the summer, and the Bite didn't fare well once regular carry down set in.
If you want to continue about the Bite specifically, please PM me or start a new thread. I'm more curious about my theory of Ebonite's possible variability of cover stocks.
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Post by: Strider on August 09, 2008, 01:30:02 PM
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Post by: cbae on August 09, 2008, 01:55:36 PM
To take advantage of the stronger core, you have to place the core in a stronger position.
Should of kept the pin in the same weaker position and placed the MB in a stronger position, about 2" right of your thumb. Then drill a weight hole 45 degree from the center of your grip down. This will give you tighter flare rings and help retain the ball motion. Not all weight holes closer to center of grip flare reducing holes
Post by: charlest on August 09, 2008, 02:07:12 PM
quote:
Amount of flare has everything to do with the position of the core. If the core is in a weak position it will not flare much. ...
The correct statement is it will not flare as much. A 5" pin to PAP with an RG differential of .05" will still flare a lot, probably around 5", for someone with Strider's rev rate.
THE BW core is a LOT stronger than the TP's, by virtue of both flare potential AND Mass Bias strength. The BWB's .05" differential will flare at least as much, if not more than the TP's .03", even with that difference in pin position.
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Post by: Strider on August 09, 2008, 02:11:57 PM
I'm not a drilling expert, but I know what works for my release. If I drill a big flaring ball too strong, it burns up and pukes unless I hit the perfect, once a year lane condition. I'm not drilling anything to be super condition specific. I've put a similar drill on two other balls recently, and really like the hook motion. Maybe I could have put the MB a little stronger, but went with the driller's suggestion. It's not like moving the MB another inch right would make the ball hook 8 more boards. First you want to talk about a weight hole below the PAP, now you mention holes closer to the grip center which is it? Also my problem was that the flare rings were too close together. Around the bow ties, I had very little separation, so carry down was a big problem for the ball. That's why I tried Brunswick's flare increasing weight hole, then MoRich's gradient line balance hole. My driller called Mo himself to confirm the location. Like I stressed earlier, I like the ball, it's just not what I expected, especially after seeing other BW's and Bite's in action, hence the point of this post.
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Post by: cbae on August 09, 2008, 02:31:52 PM
Post by: 302efi on August 09, 2008, 02:57:17 PM
quote:
4 3/8" from PAP is the strongest position and most flare from any core no matter what the rev rate is.
You = FAIL
Wrong info is bad for your health
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 09, 2008, 03:10:42 PM
But I do believe that a pin under middle finger is a pretty weak drilling....nice for low volumes of oil.
I do not think of the Bite as a really heavy oil ball....but putting a low volume react gently drilling on even a strong core ball leads to a smooth and moderate reaction.
This drilling was often recommended by Brunswick for a dry wet/dry condition and I have found it to be an excellant recommendation.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I bet the fella above meant 3 3/8 for maximum flare and possibly missed a digit.
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: DanR on August 09, 2008, 03:21:59 PM
quote:Quote4 3/8" from PAP is the strongest position and most flare from any core no matter what the rev rate is.
You = FAIL
Another FOOL
Post by: charlest on August 09, 2008, 03:45:26 PM
quote:
...
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I bet the fella above meant 3 3/8 for maximum flare and possibly missed a digit.
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Maybe but he says "If the core is in a weak position, it will not flare much", as if you get flare with a leverage pin position and almost no flare outside of it. That is just not true. True, it gets less flare, but it depends on your rev rate.
A 5" pin to PAP with Strider's rev rate, 325 rpms, can still get 4-5" of flare. That's a lot and a lot of hook.
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Post by: LuckyLefty on August 09, 2008, 04:07:46 PM
I would also expect late flare which tends to make me square up more...
I would expect a low volume condition killer.
My point I would like to see a 4 inch pin to pap drilled bite and see how much oil handling ability it would have...
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I have a Shock(a strong ball if drilled strong) drilled very similar to above. (pin under bridge and a slight cg kickout) Drilling per Billy Ray on this site. It is a real nice ball for me on dryer wet dry.... An overreaction killer. When I take it to my local wet top hat....it has less than my other stronger drilled...weaker balls.
PPS I believe balls drilled near 5 1/2 capture about 1/3 of the flare potential of the ball.
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: charlest on August 09, 2008, 04:32:42 PM
quote:
That is a lot of flare for a pin position under middle finger.
We're not talking about the pin under the middle finger.
He said the pin was 5" from his PAP.
Pin position with respect to finger is irrelevant.
Pin position w/r to PAP is everything.
quote:
I tend to be a rev dominant person(soft speed) and I do not get 5 inches of flare form that drilling and though my PAP is farther than Striders, I would not drill a ball similar to that even with a strong core and expect much oil handling ability.
I would also expect late flare which tends to make me square up more...
I would expect a low volume condition killer.
My point I would like to see a 4 inch pin to pap drilled bite and see how much oil handling ability it would have...
REgards,
Luckylefty ...
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
We're going WAY, WAY off topic. The Bite was only one example. The drilling is not germane to the topic: inconsistent pourings and their results are the topic.
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Post by: LuckyLefty on August 09, 2008, 04:38:39 PM
Again...the drilling is illustrated in Brunswick drillings as a low volume wet dry killer. The pin is over 1 1/2 inches away from their recommended oil killing setups.
Again...if we assume they are poured fine....I'd love to see him with a 4 inch pin to pap Bite and see the difference.
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: cbae on August 09, 2008, 04:40:21 PM
Correct drill would not bring up the subject. Simple solution, check the other guys Bite (one that hooks more)layout then throw it. If the layout is same as his and it does hook more then he has an issue.
Post by: a_ak57 on August 09, 2008, 05:17:07 PM
The point in NOT drilling a ball like the BWB or Break with a 3.5" by 45 degree layout or something really strong is because that would be so strong, that the ball would be likely useless as it'd basically grab and burn up 10 feet downlane. I have a lot of my gear drilled with the pin around 5" from my axis, and all of it flares normally and reacts normally.
It's also my feeling that weak layouts are misunderstood. Drill a ball 6" from your axis or so, yes, it won't flare a huge amount and will probably skate and not move much for most bowlers. But I've found that on the correct conditions or with a rev dominant bowler, these layouts will skate, then make a HUGE move in the backend, visually outhooking other equipment that normally appears stronger, in much the same way that a ball like the Green Gargoyle can appear to be "stronger" than something like the solid Ogre, because it will skate then boom off the dry. But now I'm getting off topic.
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- Andy
Edited on 8/9/2008 5:19 PM
Post by: Strider on August 09, 2008, 05:19:33 PM
There is no such thing as a CORRECT drill. Look at Michael Fagen's common drilling. If you didn't know his PAP or take it into account, you'd think he'd killed the poor thing by putting the pin an inch left of his middle finger (what would look like his track). But since his PAP is so low and his rev rate is so high, it's perfect for him. With my slight rev dominance, I do much better with weaker drilling's. I haven't seen too many bowlers with any hand drill a ball with a leveraged pin in a while. If it works for you, fine, but don't even to try to tell me I ruined a ball by putting the pin 5" from my PAP (and below the finger line). I'm not necessarily blaming the performance of my Bite on the pour consistency. I wanted something that would be cleaner through the heads and have more recovery at the back than another ball. If I put the pin at 3 3/8 to 4" from my PAP, sure it would flare more. But then I'd have a boat anchor that needed a ton of head oil and clean back ends. What ball doesn't look good under those conditions?
What I'm saying is that I've seen multiples of the same ball (drilled roughly the same) with very different performance. I've seen this from a ton of Ebonite and Hammer balls. The original BW was a ball that looked good in so many people's hands that I decided to try the Bite. If mine would have been one of the good/strong balls, I would still be making the same post, and probably still getting the same idiotic responses.
But since you insist, why doesn't my Bite do much more than my Tsunami? Very similar drill, and I've had them at the same cover prep. The Bite's cover is stronger and the core is MUCH stronger. My MoRich WMB's pin is only about 1/2" stronger than my Bite and it's an early rolling oil eater. I didn't kill that ball by drilling it "weak".
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Post by: LuckyLefty on August 09, 2008, 05:23:09 PM
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: charlest on August 09, 2008, 05:56:46 PM
Can't say I didn't warn you ....
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Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 09, 2008, 06:29:41 PM
The pin down balls were very strong arcing balls, the pin up model has crazy backend but it cracked in half and now is gone. Also one of the pin down balls split in half, so maybe you are on to something with the mixing of these covers.
Got one pin down ball left rarely use it, good ball but for me nothing special and maybe the core height is also a problem for you.
Have two Bite's pin over ring 4 3/4 pin and 4 1/2 to mb these babies move alot on decent oil, they were early run balls so who knows maybe the quality control was better then.
Oh Jeff Ussery where art thou right now???
Edited on 8/9/2008 6:31 PM
Post by: dogman666 on August 09, 2008, 08:29:52 PM
Can't say if your theory about covers is correct, but will make some obervations about ball death with ebonite covers. I notice that the bowlers that state that their bowl dies fall into one particular group. People who want to hook the whole lane with their shot. Those that play straighter or with smaller swings, say that their balls last for 100's of games. Have bowlers who trade their bowls in(TNV) and claim it does not hook at all, then the ball is put back to factory OOB, and the bowler who buys this used ball, comes back and say it is a great ball and hook monster. Same ball, two differnet view poins. My personal opinion about this whole ball dealth thing, is that is revolves around style of bowling and lane conditions. If you bowl with a Black Widow on mediums conditions, after a certain amount of gains, that ball will be a 600 grit. Oil extraction, take it back to 4000 grit(factory OOB) and your money.Remember, all reactive balls, after a certain amount of use will end up a 600 grit. Make sure you take these balls back to factory OOB after the oil extraction.
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 09, 2008, 08:59:05 PM
There others you talk about like the WMB however that I agree are pin down. And a NEAR similar pin position.
However I notice that the cover on the WMB....pin down is very dull looking.
The cover on the Tsumami with a pin up pin position in the over 5 inch pin to pap is dramatically different(duller) than other out of box Tsunamis I've seen.
For me....Pins a little farther from my pap 5 to 6 inch range and down and with weak surface are very mild and archy....no matter how new or powerful the coverstock is.
I just wonder if that combination leads to weakness for most normal range rev guys?
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Strider on August 09, 2008, 09:01:15 PM
I can't really say I've personally had a ball die. My Bite is as strong today as when I bought it (roughly 70 games). I do believe cleaning and keeping up with the cover is 80% of the battle, but even well maintained balls can have issues. My friend Andy had a Killer Instinct Pearl that went completely dead after 80 or so games. We tried every thing we could, but nothing brought it back. I've seen pearls that became less snappy as time went on, but that's the only pearl I've ever seen die hard and fast. That was well before my current theory about Ebonite cover stocks and didn't enter mind until now. That might have just been a bad ball.
I would think the plasticizer would be measured very consistently, but maybe not. The "How it's Made" show that featured Ebonite made the process look pretty low tech, but that's probably all ball manufacturers. I wonder how consistent the cure time/temperature is monitored. Is a few degrees statistically meaningful? Are the cure times consistent withing 5 minutes? One hour? I have no idea.
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Post by: LuckyLefty on August 09, 2008, 09:13:05 PM
That thing is pin UP 5 1/2 inches pin to pap (weak MB position(touching thumb) and is an ANIMAL at the back. This is an older not as oil absorbing coverstock I believe. Can you say....right turn?!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Oldskool2 on August 10, 2008, 08:10:31 AM
I think Strider's post is worth a dicussion. I don't understand why people go off-topic on this.
What makes me a little mad is, when people say they maintain there equipment well and the ball still died, others state that those people are wrong because their own ball didn't die.
> I think there are more reasons for ball dead then just oil and dirt.
I clean my equipment very well. When they lost performance, some of them I got back to react good again, others stayed dead.
I think it is also in the material itself. the additives that make the urethane proreactive vaporize in time. This happens with all plastics. My neighbor had an plastic ship model, that just crumbled at touch. Maybe that in some balls this happens to fast?
Because some people experience it and others don't with the same type of ball( maintained correctly), maybe it has to do with the consistency in quality of the raw materials.
I think, would this happen with a product other then a bowlingball, the company would get a lot more warranty claims. Now all is due to the owner or use.
When I calculate what the costs per game were for some balls I get a little irritated.
Greetings,
Antoine <
Edited on 8/10/2008 8:14 AM
Edited on 8/10/2008 8:16 AM
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 10, 2008, 08:20:52 AM
Note the particle post....
I have many particles from the olden days and many older Ebonite covers!
(I never touch my particles with sandpaper only scotch bright, or abralon).
All of them seem to still be acting like new. I have Icon2s and Icons in my arsenal and a Wow Pearl. All love to hook!
From the olden days of Ebonite I have an Xcel Pearl and Tornado blue pearl.
When I pull them out....they hook!
Maybe it is these new covers...I have heard much of the same regarding the Black Widow. While the old Big Deal(with Gas mask core) that some friends still throw continue to hook.
??
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS were we better off with particles!? If not sanded.
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: janderson on August 14, 2008, 11:08:29 AM
quote:
Are the cure times consistent withing 5 minutes?
Strider - did you catch the episode of "How it's Made" on the Discovery Channel Network where they went inside of the Ebonite ball factory? According to the show, cure times for bowling balls at the Ebonite factory are in the seconds, not minutes. It is an automated process, so conceivably, if the machines are not regularly calibrated, one would expect to see variance.
I called the 800 number after the show to order a copy on DVD and was told that whether or not it would be made available on DVD depended solely on demand. Since I happened to catch the first run of the show, it wasn't available yet.
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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row
Post by: janderson on August 14, 2008, 11:11:41 AM
quote:
On top of all that, Strider does not exactly have a fluffer release.
Speaking from personal, unbiased observation, he does not. He also has a good grasp of lane conditions and lane play. He would not mistake a change in lane conditions as "ball death".
Just two pennies.
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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row
Post by: janderson on August 14, 2008, 11:22:03 AM
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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row
Edited on 8/14/2008 1:14 PM
Post by: mmcfarland300 on August 14, 2008, 11:51:22 AM
Post by: abrown on August 14, 2008, 02:01:27 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 16, 2008, 08:23:08 AM
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS if I remember right that ball was a low rg low flare solid...that revved up quick and had a very smooth move off the spot.
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Drillmn300 on August 16, 2008, 01:41:24 PM
What I have seen in the past and it may be the same today is the cover-stocks final cut, it may vary slightly from case to case but it can be taken back in the pro shop. I rarely use the factory finish on anything as I like to know where I started and we all know that changing the cover-stock is top priority when we want to change ball motion so just a little change in the surface could be more or less on reaction.
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David W. Bolt
Silver Certified USBC Coach
IBPSIA Technical Certified Pro Shops
Post by: Strider on August 16, 2008, 02:22:13 PM
Janderson I did see the spot on TV, but didn't remember any specifics. Thanks for reminding me of the quick cure times. Maybe Ebonite has a harder time controlling the time or temperature than other companies, or doesn't think the difference is noticeable to the average user?
I've never had a ball "die", but Ebonite has this reputation, deserved or not. It's not the main point of my topic, but it might be one and the same. Again, some people have Ebonite balls last a long time, others have had tons of problems with them losing a lot of hook or hitting power as the games mount. Since they recently have put such an emphasis on oil absorption, I could see their balls changing more over time. As long as the ball can be revived with normal effort, I don't have any problem with it. The more high performance something is, the more likely it is to be labor intensive to maintain.
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