Post by: RyanRPS on January 09, 2007, 10:28:27 PM
My initial thought was that the HART marking denotes a spot a few inches left of the MB, and by placing it in your track puts the MB in the strong position... but that wouldnt work if you were left handed, because the MB would be in the same place relitive to the HART marking, and therefore after drilling would be around your NAP.
Simply saying "this is a different type of core" doesnt make sense... if it is an asymmitric core, it has a mass bias... To take affect at any point in the balls roll, it needs to come near/on the (migrating) leverage line... this is how regular mass bias positions are worked out for early roll etc, so that the Leverage line encounters the MB at the desired time...
The only thing I can think of, which i cant see being true, is that because the track on the ball seems to be lowered for most people throwing these (as was with the guy I drilled one for) everything is shifted across/down/around the ball a couple inches, making the new "strong" position on the left of the thumbhole as apposed to the right (for most people) or at 90ish degrees as apposed to the usual 70..
Please explain... have you altered physics?!?! lol
Ryan
Post by: Strapper_Squared on January 10, 2007, 06:42:40 AM
S^2
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Monday Night Football Successful INSPITE of Broadcasting Crew (http://"http://www.nypost.com/seven/12292006/sports/hey__mnf_crew__shut_up__watch_sports_phil_mushnick.htm")
Post by: RyanRPS on January 10, 2007, 06:56:55 AM
Te ball must have a mass bias.... where is it??
Oh, something else, the layout diagram says to not put the CG more than an inch from the centre of grip... this kinda depends on the span
but i'm not too worried about that lolRyan
Post by: Noy on January 10, 2007, 08:44:50 AM
quote:
I can understand if it is in a different plane, but physics is physics... for the greatest effect the MB needs to be on the leverage line... I dont follow how the MB can be in the correct position for both right handers and left handers using this marking... if it can, I just want to hear the physics behind it...
Te ball must have a mass bias.... where is it??
Oh, something else, the layout diagram says to not put the CG more than an inch from the centre of grip... this kinda depends on the span
Ryan
Thats the exact reason why I havent bought myself one (Lefty). Though other lefties on here don't seem to have a problem with it, I myself just don't trust it.
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Bowling Since March 2006 - "Get coaching, don't worry about it"...blah blah balh...Just answer the questions please
Mean Machine > Power Machine > Equation > Heat Blast
Post by: JMORRIS on January 10, 2007, 09:56:30 AM
Post by: shelley on January 10, 2007, 10:13:16 AM
You could do that with a normal asymmetric ball but the CG would be on the other side of the ball. I would venture to say that when a company marks the MB on an asymmetric ball, they spin it and put the mark on whatever side of the ball the CG is on.
The trick to the No Mercy and the HART core is that Hammer's figured out how to reliably put the CG on a line 90* from the PSA. Once they did that, they mark the spot 90* from the PSA, call it the HART, and you can drill it with the CG in the grip center every time while still putting the true PSA out towards the VAL.
SH
Post by: BallsDeep on January 10, 2007, 10:15:33 AM
I don't know a great deal about core physics, but it would seem to me that if you took a core like the vanguard, it is easy to see where mass is biased away from the core. We could drill this ball with a simple 4 x 4 layour. However if we consider the mb an axis that runs through the ball, and use the other point at which this axis reaches the cover, as the mb, one would get a radically different reaction with the same drill but using this point instead. Balls like the zone asymetric series that appear to have a mb at each extended point of the ellipse, use the term psa rather than mb, is the hart also a two plane asymetric, not a three plane? Does what I said make sense?
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four fried chickens and a coke[/size=4]
Let me say something, let me say something...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Post by: shelley on January 10, 2007, 10:28:27 AM
quote:
where the psa meets the core.
Not "core" but "surface".
quote:
Yet I have heard that the mb and the psa are two different things. Does this have to do with what type of asymetry a ball has?
The actual mass bias, where there's more mass on one side than the other, doesn't have to be where the PSA is. On some balls, it is, and on some it isn't. I believe the PSA is the one that's marked, whether it's called the MB or PSA or whatever. On the No Mercy, the MB is marked because the CG is on the pin-MB line, not the pin-PSA line and they want you to put the CG in the grip.
"Mass bias" and "preferred spin axis" are used almost interchangeably, but they really aren't the same. In many cases, they're at the same spot, but in others they're not. If you read the deTerminator manual (which I can't find on the Mo website right now), it talks about balls that are y-spinning and balls that are z-spinning, which I believe is related to whether the MB and PSA are the same spot.
SH
Post by: LuckyLefty on January 10, 2007, 10:39:28 AM
But I think the explanation is in this link I am giving you.
Visionary pioneered the concept.
Instead of placing a denser portion offset in the direction of the mass bias.
I believe Visionary said...hey...we will place a lighter portion(or less dense material on the opposite side to create mass bias on the opposite side).
Thus one can drill the ball and not take out mass bias!
I believe this is the explanation and this link MAY explain it!
Visionary AMB mass bias concept (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ManufacterID=13&BallID=678")
If I am wrong on the method...used to create this ...I apologize.
rEgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: anotherwindup on January 10, 2007, 11:08:37 AM
quote:
RotoRPS
You and Strapper_Squared are on the right track. The bowling ball has three axes. The X axis which runs through the pin. The Y axis which commonly runs through the MB/PSA and the Z axis which runs through the HART. The reason why this ball works for LH bowlers is very simple. An axis can be defined as a line that runs through an object in which the object rotates around. For example; the earth rotates about its axis. We refer to the ends of the Axis as the North Pole and the South Pole, but no matter what you call the ends of the axis you will be talking about the same axis. A bowling ball is no different. Whatever axis you want to talk about, there is two end points. Theoretically you could have two pins, two MB and two HARTS. Remember these markings are just marking the end of the axis or one pole of the axis. Theoretically if you the opposite pole of each axis you to lay the ball out you would have the exaxt same reaction.
If you want to find the two "poles" of the Y axis or MB points on a No Mercy, then follow these simple steps:
1. Draw a line from the pin to the HART
2. Draw a line perpendicular to the the line that you have just drawn that runs through the HART
3. Measure 6 3/4" left of the HART on this line and make a mark. Then measure 6 3/4" right of the HART on this line and make a mark.
What you have successfully done is found the to poles of the Y axis or the two spots that a MB could be marked. It doesn't matter what pole you use to lay-out the ball because it is the same axis.
I hope this makes sense, if not please let me know.
Jesse James
In the Zone Pro Shop
Powerhouse Training Clinics
This is spot on, from what I have been told.
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
'06-'07 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
http://www.hammerbowling.com/hammertalk/forumdisplay.php?f=2
Post by: RyanRPS on January 10, 2007, 11:21:36 AM
Ok I understand what you are trying to say, however, here are the 2 problems I have with this...
1 - if you put the heart on the track, the MB, measured as you said 6 3/4 from the hart, isn't in the strong position... so how is this the strongest position... without measuring, but using common sense, placing the MB 6 odd inches from your track puts it on your PAP or NAP depending which way you measure, which is pretty much the weakest position because it produces least overturning moment...
2 - why on earth do this?? to confuse everyone??
Also.. from my understanding... the MB isn't on both sides of the ball... its a heavy spot, so it is only at one place... its not right at the surface but the marking denotes at what angle to the core it is situated, so by using this position you can set it to whatever angle you wish relative to your spin axis to use its influence at whatever part of the lane you require.
Ryan
Post by: BallsDeep on January 10, 2007, 12:10:56 PM
quote:quote:
where the psa meets the core.
Not "core" but "surface".quote:
Yet I have heard that the mb and the psa are two different things. Does this have to do with what type of asymetry a ball has?
The actual mass bias, where there's more mass on one side than the other, doesn't have to be where the PSA is. On some balls, it is, and on some it isn't. I believe the PSA is the one that's marked, whether it's called the MB or PSA or whatever. On the No Mercy, the MB is marked because the CG is on the pin-MB line, not the pin-PSA line and they want you to put the CG in the grip.
"Mass bias" and "preferred spin axis" are used almost interchangeably, but they really aren't the same. In many cases, they're at the same spot, but in others they're not. If you read the deTerminator manual (which I can't find on the Mo website right now), it talks about balls that are y-spinning and balls that are z-spinning, which I believe is related to whether the MB and PSA are the same spot.
SH
I meant to say cover, but thanks for the clarification. I thought that the hart was neither the psa nor the mb, just a point 90 degrees from each point where the psa meets the cover.
The y spinning or z spinning aspect, I was under the impression, had to do with the strength of a ball's mass bias, in that symmetrical balls have a very small mass bias and are considered __ spinning, while asyms which have a greater mass bias are considered __ spinning.
Any angle that one looks at the vanguard there is asymetry both from top to bottom and left to right, thus I figured thats why its deemed a three plane asymetric. Yet the zone core is symmetrical from left to right when looking at it from the front with the pin up, and thus I figured that this was why it is considered a two plane. Thats also why I figured that the Vanguard may have a psa that is different from its mb.
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four fried chickens and a coke[/size=4]
Let me say something, let me say something...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Post by: BallsDeep on January 10, 2007, 12:19:18 PM
quote:
Inthezone,
Ok I understand what you are trying to say, however, here are the 2 problems I have with this...
1 - if you put the heart on the track, the MB, measured as you said 6 3/4 from the hart, isn't in the strong position... so how is this the strongest position... without measuring, but using common sense, placing the MB 6 odd inches from your track puts it on your PAP or NAP depending which way you measure, which is pretty much the weakest position because it produces least overturning moment...
2 - why on earth do this?? to confuse everyone??
Also.. from my understanding... the MB isn't on both sides of the ball... its a heavy spot, so it is only at one place... its not right at the surface but the marking denotes at what angle to the core it is situated, so by using this position you can set it to whatever angle you wish relative to your spin axis to use its influence at whatever part of the lane you require.
Ryan
This thought crossed my mind too. Though the mb wouldn't be on your pap, it would have to be somewhere on, or very near to your val. Such a position usually promotes an even arcing reaction with moderate overall hook.
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four fried chickens and a coke[/size=4]
Let me say something, let me say something...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Post by: RyanRPS on January 10, 2007, 12:44:04 PM
im now thinking, is there 2 MBs on this ball, caused by the points of the cube core? And the heart is the point in between them?
Ryan
Post by: KDawg77 on January 10, 2007, 01:10:28 PM
I think a main reason was they jumped on the R&D when the USBC attempted to push the "no weight hole and no further than 1" from CG" over a year ago. Hammer's thought was to keep the reactions, but incorporate the new rule. While the rule was tabled, Hammer did come up with a novel concept.
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No, my name is not Prince and I'm not particularly funky.
Post by: anotherwindup on January 11, 2007, 05:42:44 AM
quote:
Jesse,
I think a main reason was they jumped on the R&D when the USBC attempted to push the "no weight hole and no further than 1" from CG" over a year ago. Hammer's thought was to keep the reactions, but incorporate the new rule. While the rule was tabled, Hammer did come up with a novel concept.
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No, my name is not Prince and I'm not particularly funky.
You have actually meshed 2 of the proposed rule changes together.
1. No weight holes.
2. CG must be within 1" of the center of grip.
Now, the NM can be drilled to meet both of these specs and STILL have a strong reaction.
Is this why the ball was created? I don't know. I am not at liberty to put "words in the mouths" of Brian Graham, or Ron Hickland.
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Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
'06-'07 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
http://www.hammerbowling.com/hammertalk/forumdisplay.php?f=2
Post by: anotherwindup on January 11, 2007, 06:08:39 AM
quote:quote:quote:
Scott- I would like some clarification on your statement, if you would please. What do you mean by misaligned?
Jason,
I don't think you were using the forum much around Sept. Oct. when I got an NM. Here's the deal. I wound up thru my driller one fo the first series of NM's that came out. If, I knew then what I know now and if my driller also would have known more I would have refused the ball and he would have sent back to Hammer for replacement.
It was misaligned pin and HART in line with the CG kicked to the left looking at the label at least 1 1/2" maybe more. I used the #1 pattern...my thinking being it's an oil ball so I am going to use it witha strong layout as my heavy oil ball. Pin to PAP 4" next and slighty above ring. Hart 1" left of my thumb. CG wound up under my middle finger about an 1 1/2". Wound up with 7/8 oz. negative. Ball at many different surfaces was inconsistent. Then, tried an x hole slightly above my NAP taking it to 1/4 oz. pos. This helped some but still ball got squirrelly with different surfaces.
Since that time many have said make sure the HART is further down away from the thumb into your track. NM evidently lowers most players tracks.
It's a live and learn situation and I was one of the first to drill one after a few others sucesses with the ball. Knowing what I know now I would have drilled it differently. But, my main problem with Hammer is that they did not recall or replace ALL of the balls that had that much misalignment. 1/2" no problem but large amounts over an 1" is too much in the manufacturer of this ball. Plus Hammer at the time is marketing this ball as an easy to drill ball. I don't see it any less intensive than any ball and probably more for the driller to really get a good reaction. My ball may have worked well for a lefty not me a righty.
My stats. are in profile and my driller is not a novice one of the best in my area and state.
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Scott
First and foremost....Great bowling WALLSHOT.
Now, Scott.....
I just looked at your profile:quote:
I track slightly lower than most more of a 5/8ths roll.
Now from your post:quote:
Hart 1" left of my thumb.
Now from the NM drilling instructions:quote:
HART Placement: Place HART in the ball track; ref: http://hammerbowling.com/tech_info/detail.php?drilling=Drilling%20Instructions%208
Ok, now based on all of these items, I can deduce that the problem with your NM had absolutely nothing to do with the "misaligned" CG, but the fact that your HART was no where near your track. If you "track lower than most" and you use a "5/8ths roll", there is no way that the HART made it into your track.
How do I know this? I drilled one with the HART 1" left of my thumb, and in my track I thought, but it missed the track to the high side, and I have a PAP of 5 1/4"R, 1/8"UP, which is NOT a low track.....you know what? It rolled bad.
I drilled another with the HART 2.5" from my thumb and into the 3rd/4th flare ring and the ball is an absolute BEAST!
So, I hate to rain on your, and your ball driller's, parade but the problem was with the layout and not the ball.
Also, there is no need for HAMMER to "recall or replace ALL of the balls that had that much misalignment".
Yes, I agree that the ball would have been easier to layout, and probably better suited for a lefty, but you should have realized that prior to drilling.
**Scott, this is not an attack on you, so please don't take it that way. There are so many people that have the same "ideas" that you have, but they don't realize that thinking is not the true reasoning behind the ball reaction. I am just trying to explain that, through using your example. The NM was designed, IMO, to give driller's an easy way to get a strong asym reaction without all of the MB nonsense. The driller just must make sure to lay it out right.
Sorry for the rant, but I have been a member, and recently lurking, for a long time here, and as many of you know I am a DIE HARD HAMMER guy, and I can't stand it when someone believes that Brian Graham, or Hammer, didn't do something they should have.
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Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
'06-'07 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
http://www.hammerbowling.com/hammertalk/forumdisplay.php?f=2
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
'06-'07 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
http://www.hammerbowling.com/hammertalk/forumdisplay.php?f=2
Post by: laufaye on January 11, 2007, 10:12:51 AM
quote:
Simply put the ball on a determinator and it will locate the mass bias. If you can manage to find a 0-1 pin or maybe an x out with the cg to the side you need it to be on and spin it, you can drill it like other asymetrical balls. The problem I have seen with the ball is it is not adjustable enough. Surface is an ok adjustment, but when it is on a challanging condition and you may need to make a weight hole adjustment to get the core to read the pattern when you need it to, it is difficult to do. Very good ball on league patterns though.
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Rob Herman
Ten in The Pit Pro Shop
Allentown and Wind Gap, PA
10NDPIT,
Have you put the NM on a DeTerminator yet? and did it spin to the Hart or any where else?
I have a Determinater and spun the NM, it spun to the HART as I remember but not 100% sure now, cos I do not have a NM in the shop right now and cannot re-confirm, but I think I remember it spun to the Hart last time I spin one.
Jesse, please confire that, if no I will order another NM just to spin it. So far I understand what you say but just need too confirm this spinning issue.
rob@teninthepitproshop.com
Turbo Grips Staff
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Laufaye
Post by: pjr300 on February 21, 2007, 10:38:08 PM
I used to understand ball physics and layouts until I read this thread. Ouch!
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pjr300
live from the Bowling Capital of the World
specs and transaction record (positive and negative) in my profile
Post by: phoenixheat on February 22, 2007, 09:42:36 AM
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*** KEEP YOUR THUMB IN THE HOLE!***
Edited on 2/22/2007 10:40 AM
Post by: laufaye on February 22, 2007, 07:46:30 PM
quote:
well... it's a different type of core...
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*** KEEP YOUR THUMB IN THE HOLE!***
Edited on 2/22/2007 10:40 AM
Its not different kind of core, just marked differently on the ball.
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Laufaye