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Author Topic: Toxic question?  (Read 4989 times)

chitown

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Toxic question?
« on: January 08, 2007, 08:01:29 AM »
Has anyone dulled there Toxic?  If so, how was the reaction?
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charlest

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2007, 04:36:46 PM »
quote:
Has anyone dulled there Toxic?  If so, how was the reaction?
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GO BEARS!  Super Bowl bound!


Isn't that what the Pain is for?

Yes, people do dull pearls but ....
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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chitown

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2007, 04:50:15 PM »
quote:

Isn't that what the Pain is for?

Yes, people do dull pearls but ....




But what?  there's a difference between a dulled pearl and a dull solid.

Example: let's say your PAIN is at 4000 grit and still has too much mid-lane read.  Then you grab your Toxic and it is too over/under off the break.  In this type of situation a dulled Toxic(weaker reactive cover) may be just what's needed to give one a better look.  It won't grab as much in the mid-lane and will be tamer off the break because the polish is knocked off.


This is why i'm asking if anyone dulled the toxic.
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charlest

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2007, 05:08:17 PM »
quote:
quote:

Isn't that what the Pain is for?

Yes, people do dull pearls but ....




But what?  there's a difference between a dulled pearl and a dull solid.



Been there, done that.

Yes, there's a difference, but it's like the difference, in my experience, betwene a 5" pin-PAP and 5.5" pin-PAP. Can be interetsing but it's mostly a matter of preference, not of significance.

quote:

Example: let's say your PAIN is at 4000 grit and still has too much mid-lane read.  Then you grab your Toxic and it is too over/under off the break.  In this type of situation a dulled Toxic(weaker reactive cover) may be just what's needed to give one a better look.  It won't grab as much in the mid-lane and will be tamer off the break because the polish is knocked off.



But the difference is, as I stated above, not truly significant, in my experience. More of want (preference), rather than need (significance).

I defer to your desires. Try one and learn what it means for you. It may be of importance to your game. I would never say otherwise. I told you what it has meant to me.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

chitown

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2007, 10:18:49 PM »
I understand what your saying. I had an entire arsenal of DOOMS.  I had them at different cover preps and layouts.  One of my DOOMS was drilled strong and dulled to 800 grit then polished with Ebonites matte polish.  This ball was awesome.  When the PAIN came out I thought it wouldn't be much different than this dull DOOM.  Boy was I wrong.  The PAIN was a lot stronger at the same cover grit.  Big difference between them.

I have since got rid of that DOOM.  In fact, I only have 1 DOOM now.  I'm considering the TOXIC and may knock the polish off and use it as a condition specific ball.  That's why I was asking.

If you look at past posts I have made about the PAIN when it first came out.  You will see that I thought it wouldn't be much different than a dull DOOM.  Well there's a lot of difference.  The PAIN is a lot stronger.

So we can agree to disagree on this one.  I do feel there's a big difference between certain solid reactives and dull pearls.  Heck there's a big difference between certain solid reactives at the same cover grit.
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scotts33

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2007, 10:19:06 PM »
Here's two guys actually in the know....discussing a point that many don't even understand BUT should!  
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Scott

Scott

chitown

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2007, 10:44:25 PM »
quote:
Here's two guys actually in the know....discussing a point that many don't even understand BUT should!  
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Scott




Scott there's a lot of things to learn about this game.  Heck i'm learning something all the time about equipment and lane conditions.

I bowl on a big money, tough lane conditions league.  Were using 5 patterns this season and each one of them is difficult.  Playing on these types of conditions has thought me a lot.  This is my 4th season at this league.

This past Sunday I was bowling on a true reverse block.  The outsides were oil and the inside was dry as a bone.  Of course there's head oil across the fronts but the inside was so dry that it was very difficult to swing the ball.  So one would think to just bowl down and in.  Well that's one approach but the oil on the outside made it difficult to be consistent.  If you tugged the ball it wouldn't hold and would shoot for the 7 pin.  If you squirted it out it wouldn't recover.  Basically no room for error playing the down and in line.

Well I had my best game swinging the ball in between the 3rd and 4th arrow to a break at 8.  I had to use a lot of ball speed to get the ball thru the mids.  If I thru it too hard the ball would go to wide and not recover.  Just a flat out tough pattern.

I was using a PAIN.  It actually got thru the mids better than my DOOM, which is polished.  The middle was so dry that the polished DOOM would just grab and turn.  You could see it just stand up in the middle of the lane.  The PAIN was obviously burning up a bit and not grabbing like the DOOM.

Now this condition is why this TOXIC post came about.  This is a perfect condition for a weak reactive ball that has a dull finish.  Polished equipment tends to be hard to control on tough patterns.  Well in the case of this pattern the polished equipment would just grab too much.  The middle was that dry.  

Well my thinking for this pattern is using a weaker reactive like the TOXIC OR DOOM but with the polish knocked off.  This weaker reactive cover would allow it to get thru the mids better than the PAIN.  It would also be more controllable at the break because of the dull finish.  Well I would not just dull it though.  I would dull the TOXIC and re polish it with matte polish.  This would allow it to get a little more length than with the dull surface but still be controllable because of the smooth matte finish.

Sorry for the long post.  I'm just trying to explain my thinking of a pattern i'm bowling on for the next 3 weeks and probably again later in the season.
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GO BEARS!  Super Bowl bound!

Edited on 1/8/2007 11:46 PM

scotts33

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2007, 10:48:42 PM »
quote:
Sorry for the long post. I'm just trying to explain my thinking of a pattern i'm bowling on for the next 3 weeks and probably again later in the season.


chi,

Other than being a Bears fan .....you know the game so does charlest <Jeff>  this is good discussion not the inane lil petty bickering of the youngsters.  You go guys!!  I appreciate reading well informed posters with some well informed opinions that may or may not agree with my opinion.
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Scott

Scott

chitown

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2007, 10:56:17 PM »
quote:

chi,

Other than being a Bears fan .....you know the game so does charlest <Jeff> this is good discussion not the inane lil petty bickering of the youngsters. You go guys!! I appreciate reading well informed posters with some well informed opinions that may or may not agree with my opinion



Charlest is very knowledgeable about bowling.  

It's good to have posts like this.   I learn a lot from other opinions.  However I don't always agree with them.
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GO BEARS!  Super Bowl bound!

max revs

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2007, 12:13:30 AM »
chi have you thought about getting something with particle in it?
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 Road Hawg
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azguy

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2007, 05:50:48 AM »
chitown, your theory is sound and it might be just what you are looking for, I would wonder if the 'common' bowler has this type of condition specific balls in the bag. Not many have a need for a specific condition that a speed/hand/movement might not give them the look or change they might want.

Not as many as I think you think, would be able to see a difference in a dulled pearl vs a dull reactive. Not knocking the bowler, just that not many see a slight change until it's changed on them again. Might be not as many are into the high money games as you and can not afford the number of condition specific balls that would be needed for a change as you are looking for.

By no means am I knocking your idea, shoot, I've never seen anyone have the Dooms set the way you did and used them with success as you, just wondering if most folks see what you do as far as changing conditions or can realize the change until it's to late, just wondering as well.

I have a Toxic, was thinking of drilling a second with a slightly stronger layout. The conditions I see don't change from week to week that much so a movement/hand/speed usually will take care of any change the lanes give me, but I'm not into the big money as you or average anywhere near you so it's not really cost effective for myself, others maybe, just not me.

If you do dull the Toxic, I'd be sure interested in the results.
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az guy aka: R & L Bowlers Pro
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chitown

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2007, 06:47:39 AM »
quote:
chi have you thought about getting something with particle in it?
--------------------
med-high revs
 17 mph ball speed
 med axis tilt
 
 Current arsenal:
 No Mercy WOW WOW WOW did I say WOW!!
 Road Hawg
 Pain
 Doom
 Black Widow
 Ambush
 Big Time (for sale 5-10 games)
 Blue Vibe  
 White Dot


I'm looking into some particles but there really isn't many to choose from.  Yes a particle is needed in my bag.  Particle tends to burn up on dry and hook less unlike a lot of reactives which hook more once the lanes are gone.


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GO BEARS!  Super Bowl bound!

StrikeMonster

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2007, 07:02:34 AM »
I've got an Impulse Zone that works really well on that type of condition.  
Weak particle with a matte finish.

charlest

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2007, 07:18:05 AM »
Chitown,

While certain variations of balls can be very helpful on conditions such as you describe, Sometimes, many time, drills have to be varied with the surfaces as well.

In the reverse block you describe, it is often unusual for an RB to allow one to have th eball goes a far outside as 8. The Nationals often play like an RB and the breakpoint often has to be around 11 or 12.

In these situations, (which you probably know by now) instead of keeping the pin around the ring finger area, not only might a ball surface of 2000 grit (or even 4000 grit, it depends) be useful, instead of the normal gloss polish, but placing the pin over the bridge and kicking the CG out slightly coudl give you the slight backend needed to succeed on an RB.

In this sense, I can see carrying a polish Toxic with a "normal" drill and a matte finish with a 4000 grit finish and length+ reduced backend drill.

In general, if the cores and the coverstock are identical on 2 balls, a solid and a pearl resin, if drilled the same and surface finished the same, the pearl will usuually go slightly longer due to the stiffer cover tension provided by the pearlization. At times this can be helpful, but usually only on tricky tournament shots or PBA or SPort patterns in leagues. This could be what your facing.

Again, in summary, manipulating ball design, alternative drills and coverstock preparations can be very useful but is a complex balancing act of many, many factors, including your own release and ball speed consistency.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

chitown

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Re: Toxic question?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2007, 07:34:13 AM »
quote:
chitown, your theory is sound and it might be just what you are looking for, I would wonder if the 'common' bowler has this type of condition specific balls in the bag. Not many have a need for a specific condition that a speed/hand/movement might not give them the look or change they might want.

Not as many as I think you think, would be able to see a difference in a dulled pearl vs a dull reactive. Not knocking the bowler, just that not many see a slight change until it's changed on them again. Might be not as many are into the high money games as you and can not afford the number of condition specific balls that would be needed for a change as you are looking for.

By no means am I knocking your idea, shoot, I've never seen anyone have the Dooms set the way you did and used them with success as you, just wondering if most folks see what you do as far as changing conditions or can realize the change until it's to late, just wondering as well.

I have a Toxic, was thinking of drilling a second with a slightly stronger layout. The conditions I see don't change from week to week that much so a movement/hand/speed usually will take care of any change the lanes give me, but I'm not into the big money as you or average anywhere near you so it's not really cost effective for myself, others maybe, just not me.

If you do dull the Toxic, I'd be sure interested in the results.
--------------------
az guy aka: R & L Bowlers Pro
rlbowlerspro@cox.net
www.rlbowlerspro.com


Looking for treasures ? Take a look at my wife's ebay store http://www.ebaystores.com/Pitas-Place?refid=store




Roger, if I were bowling on a typical house shot league there would only be 2 strike balls in my bag.  I would have a shiny, dull and spare ball.  That would be it.  There would be no need for any more than that.

Even though i'm on this tough lane condition league I still try to keep my arsenal to a minimum.  I don't want anymore than 5 strike balls and a spare.  I probably don't even need that many.  I have bought several balls this past year and end up trading them in if they don't work for me.  Right now i'm down to 3 strike balls and a spare.  I have traded all the rest of my equipment in.  No need for balls that only work great on house patterns and avg. on tough patterns.  I wont go over 5 strike balls.  That's my limit.  

I also look at it this way.  These bowling balls of mine pay for themselves.  If I was not making money from bowling then I would not be buying equipment like I do.

How many bowlers have condition specific balls in there bag?  Probably bowlers that bowl on sport patterns or money leagues and what not.  If your bowling on a house shot then there's no need for more than 2 strikes balls.  That my opinion of course.  I just don't see the need for more than 2 strike balls on leagues like that.

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