BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Hammer => Topic started by: Redline on July 17, 2007, 07:31:30 AM
-
After working with my Toxic and BWP a bit more on fresh conditions, it has become apparent that I definitely need a "drier" lane ball.
Problem being is that I can't decide between the Blue or Cherry Vibe.
Playing down and in, I want the length that the Cherry offers, but am afraid of it being too strong/angular/uncontrollable off the dry.
From what I have read, the Blue vibe is smoother but doesn't provide as much length or a strong reaction off the dry.
I am thinking of getting the Blue Vibe but drilling it with the pin up to try and create extra length and a strong but controllable turn off the dry.
-
Since you know where your axis is, just place the pin 6 inches from your axis. You can keep the pin up for angular backend motion or pin down to be a strong arc. Pin height does not dictate length. Pin distance to axis does. Get the blue one if you want a smoother transition from skid to hook, or get the Cherry if you a more skid snap type of ball reaction.
-
If you want either ball for dry conditions make sure to drill them for as much length as you can. Both balls are more aggressive than you think they are. The blue will be smoother than the cherry off the point but can still be pretty snappy.
-
quote:
Pin height does not dictate length. Pin distance to axis does.
Pin height will change when the ball rolls, which WILL effect length. Pin height will put more or less weight in the fingers or thumb, which WILL effect length.
Edited on 7/17/2007 4:11 PM
-
When I was referring to "pin up" its just a general location of where the pin will be in relation to my finger line.
To address other things:
Dyno-Joe: I will probably go with a 5 1/2 pin to pap layout. I tried a 6in layout before and had trouble getting the ball to finish.
I guess my main desire is that I want a strong move off the dry. I am worried that the Cherry will be too much and Blue won't be enough. So that is why I am torn as to which one would suit my needs.
-
Off the dry the BV will not disappoint. But with a 5 1/2pin to pap I think the CV will be more of what your looking for
-
bluerrpilot-Could you expand on your previous post. If anything, I was thinking the exact opposite of what you posted. So I am very interested in hearing your logic behind your advice. Thanks!
-
I tried a BV with a 5 1/2 pin to pap and it didnt have a very good move in the back. My current BV is 4 pin to pap and although its more of an arc, it moves bettter and more consistantly in the dry. The CV will be stronger in the back than the BV but shouldnt be overly angular. And if it is, you can knock the cover down and tame it out.
Edited on 7/17/2007 5:46 PM
-
You will be not disappointed with the BLue Vibe. It's smooth and controllable.
Drill it 5-1/2 to 6 inches from pap with the cg towards your center of grip. If that doesn't work you can always sand the ball with your track and matte finish it with Rough Buff then polish. It's amazing how that Brunswick Rough Buff tames balls down.
--------------------
Team Banger Bowling Test Staff
-
bluerrpilot-thanks for the input, i think with that input, the CV is definitely the better pick.
Judging by the description of the ball reaction, I want smooth, but I don't like "arc-y" balls. I will probably get the CV, and if its too uncontrollable, adjust the cover.
Thanks everyone!
-
Moving weight???
Aren't we talking moving ENDING CG....Oh OH...there I said it!
AS to where the pin is and where the cg is on a particular ball and lenght.
I don't believe there is much debate that moving pin above the fingers makes a ball longer than pin below fingers. As to moving cg up....above grip center and creating fingerweight there IS clearly some debate but I think that adds length too! As to pin to pap distance....farther from pap seems to add length also.
As to which ball is longer....a pin up super low rg ball may be earlier than a pin down high rg ball with surface....tough to predict.
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
-
quote:
Moving weight???
Aren't we talking moving ENDING CG....Oh OH...there I said it!
AS to where the pin is and where the cg is on a particular ball and lenght.
I don't believe there is much debate that moving pin above the fingers makes a ball longer than pin below fingers. As to moving cg up....above grip center and creating fingerweight there IS clearly some debate but I think that adds length too! As to pin to pap distance....farther from pap seems to add length also.
As to which ball is longer....a pin up super low rg ball may be earlier than a pin down high rg ball with surface....tough to predict.
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
the way i understood it was this:
2 identical Blue Vibes with 3" pins and 3oz of top weight. Holes drilled to the same depth. One ball has the pin above the bridge and the other below it. the one with the pin above has finger weight making it go longer. The ball with the pin down will roll later due to thumb weight.
-
That was an incredible post. Bravo!
--------------------
-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop
-
Absolutebowling-
To answer your question about preferred layouts. I have had the most success lately with 5 to 5 1/2 pin to pap drillings.
I was planning on copying the layout on my Toxic. It gives me plenty of length and lots of backend recovery. It's basically pin over the bridge. I use a "mb" marker and put that 2inches right of my thumb (strong position)-the CG ends up where it does, then place the x-hole on the "mb" spot.
The biggest problem with bowling on my THS during league is three fold. First off, everyone plays in the same area-so it gets burned by around the middle of the 2nd game. There is too much oil in the middle to move in and still carry. The last being is that they create an OOB downlane...so no wall. There are two options, more speed or find some way to create friction down lane..normally by playing VERY slow.
For me, I have trouble generating the needed speed, and can't slow it down. Instead, I try for covers and drilling that allow me to push the ball farther down lane. In the past with drillings with shorter pin to pap layouts-they read too early. With my current setup...my BWP opens, my Toxic pushes about 3-5ft more than the widow. I want something I can move when my Toxic becomes too much-i.e 3rd game ball if needed.
I ended up ordering a Cherry Vibe. I thought it over, and my main concern was the arc like reaction from the vibe. I wanted more of a skid snap reaction. I can make adjustments if its too much, but I am sure this will fit the need. I will post up results later. I should have it drilled up later this week or beginning of next week.
-
quote:
Playing down and in, I want the length that the Cherry offers, but am afraid of it being too strong/angular/uncontrollable off the dry.
From what I have read, the Blue vibe is smoother but doesn't provide as much length or a strong reaction off the dry.
I am thinking of getting the Blue Vibe but drilling it with the pin up to try and create extra length and a strong but controllable turn off the dry.
????
If the Blue is smoother and that's what you want AND need, why are you drilling it to make it react like the Purple and the CHerry (more towards skid/flip) if that is what you don't want?
Move the pin further away from the PAP and higher above the midline will make its reaction more towards the skid/flip side than the arc-ing side, you seem to want/need.
If you want more length and less backend, sand it finer, like, 2000 grit and then add a dose of polish.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
-
Absolutebowling-Thanks again for the information.
Regarding your choice of layout, while it is true I want a strong move off the breakpoint, it is getting to that point that becomes a problem. As the lanes dry up, the balls check up and move earlier. What I am looking for my later shift balls to do, is to "push" a little farther down lanes. The Toxic does this after my BWP starts becoming a little uncontrollable, the Vibe should do the same for the Toxic. In a nutshell, I am looking for the push to the breakpoint, then still have enough energy to come off and carry.
I have tried the various "Rico'ed" layouts, the ball rolled smoothly, but still started checking up. Plus I didn't like the "reaction shape" it created on the lanes. So I am still more confident with my current choice for layouts. Though I still need to get some additional input from my driller/coach.
As far as moving in and using the dry. I haven't been able to. I've been studying pros and looking for ways to move in and swing the ball out. Even talked with my coach and other bowlers who work at the center. To my basic understanding is that they lay down a few units along the gutters downlane to eliminate a wall and/or don't strip the edges of the lane-maybe that's why the house I bowl at is considered one of the "tougher" houses in the area. With the middle flooded, and carrydown an issue, and no real wall to bounce off of, unless you have a slow ball speed, you can't play anywhere inside of 15. Believe me I have tried in practice. Only to have most of the staff and other bowlers tell me that what I am doing won't work.
I was stubborn for a bit and kept at it, but I ended forcing the shot which lead to more bad habits, and my average dropped considerably. From watching others, I've seen two people play inside of the 15 board, both had tons of grab at the bottom of their swing and ball speeds around 9-12. At other houses, what you mentioned holds true, and I can make such a move, if the lanes allow it.
That all being said, in rare cases, there is an option of moving to around 15 and swinging it out, if the lanes dry out enough and there are people playing around the gutter. With the current layouts/balls I use, they are versatile enough that they will still have enough energy to come back, in the times that I have been forced to make such a move.
Nevertheless, I still prefer to try and use the ball covers to compensate for changing lane conditions. Because all of those times I have had to make a move, I found myself wishing for a weaker ball and trying to get it to push a little downlane. I haven't invested in one for whatever reason-maybe I'm getting a little smarter with age. *shrug*
Charlest-It is difficult to put into words my desired ball reaction shape. In simple terms, I want the best of both Vibes. Long ball reaction, that snaps back to the pocket in a smooth controlled way. Either way, with the Ebonite equipment that I have currently layed out-I get the length and the snap.
Now that I have switched to Hammer, the ball reaction shape that the BWP and Toxic have-they fit what I am looking for. I am hoping the CV does the same.
I contemplated the BV...but everyone says it "arcs". That got me thinking, I change the backend reaction, but I doubt I can make a ball that arcs do something else. Thus I went with the CV, and if need be, I will make those cover adjustments.
In the end, its just all words.
Edited on 7/18/2007 1:33 AM
Edited on 7/18/2007 1:38 AM
-
quote:
Ok, enough of the crap that has already been posted. Moving the pin has nothing to do with static weights, regardless of your side of the debate on the subject.
Pin height controls the height of the core. A taller core is a higher RG core, and a shorter core is a lower rg core. The same theory as an Ice skater spinning.....
An easy way to visualise the effect on pin height is to use a drink bottle. The cap on the bottle is the pin.
Place the pin (the cap of the bottle) UP, and rotate the bottle sideways. Notice how long it takes for the bottle to completely complete a revolution. Notice how tall the bottle looks in profile. This is using the cores highest RG value
Place the pin in the palm and rotate it sideways. It now has to travel less distance around its axis before completing an entire revolution. The bottle appears shorter and more compact in view. This is using the cores lowest RG value.
On edit, I'll also answer the original question that the poster placed.
Placing the pin in a weak position in relation to your pap is almost the worst thing you can do in this situation. This will not get the ball flaring enough to get off its original flare line, due to the nature of the lower differential of the core. A good way to get length and control is to keep the pin up, but give the pin to pap aspect of the layout more "theoretical" strength.
Without seeing you bowl, and seeing your other preffered layouts its hard to dictate a good pin to pap distance, however a generally safe suggestion in this instance is a 4 by layout, keeping the pin at least 3 inches above the midline. please place the CG so you don't require the use of a balance hole, but you can place one in if you wish. Generally between 3/4 and 1 inch from grip centre is safe, unless your topweight is greater than 3.5oz. If in doubt, check before you drill the ball on a dodo scale.
You can then use the appropriate sized, pitched and distanced balance hole to fine tune the reaction after throwing the ball and seeing what it does.
If after all this, you are still getting snap, hit the ball with a little abralon surface (4000, 2000, 1000 etc etc) until you get the ball responding to friction as you want it to.
Hope this helps.
--------------------
www.absolutebowling.com troll free zone
Edited on 7/17/2007 10:07 PM
I completly agree with this. I had a jolt pearl drilled up, and has little flare. The ball does exactly what Tonx is talking about, flaring over the original line. This is great for fried heads, but I never see fried heads, what I see is monster backend, and this thing just jumps hard off the dry. You almost want to drill this ball stronger than intended to get the ball to burn a little, making it more controlable.
Dj
--------------------
The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
-
GiVing layout advice is sometimes hard because i've never seen you bowl. However based on the reply's i'm going to make a suggestion.
I have seen both the Cherry and Blue Vibe in action. The Blue vibe is smoother off the spot but still has plenty of power. I really don't see THAT much of a difference between the two. I feel that either one will work for you.
Layouts: I'm from the camp that feels a bowler can set up a great arsenal with 1 layout. Just let the cover and cores separate the reactions between the balls. This is a simple approach that has worked well for me in the past.
I currently use 2 different layouts in my arsenal. So out of 4 strike balls, 3 will have the same layout.
For you I would just go with your initial layout. Place the pin 5 1/2 from your pap and call it a day. If the ball is too jumpy for you then change the cover a tad bit.
Now with respect to pin height. I am a high track bowler and only use pins above the fingers, type layouts. You can have controllable reactions with high pin layouts.
--------------------
This fall it's Raw Hammer Time!
Edited on 7/19/2007 7:56 AM
Edited on 7/19/2007 7:58 AM
-
Luckylefty-
First and foremost, you dispelled a major concern being that the two vibes are different. Arc and Skid/Flip are worlds apart in terms of ball reactions in my mind. So your comment that there isn't much difference helps reassure me that I made a good choice.
I have been migrating towards your mindset of setting similar/same layouts and letting the cover/core do the work. As it stands now, I have a standard "benchmark" layout that I like, and the aforementioned layout with the pin over the bridge for a little more push/length.
As you and several others have stated...I can make cover adjustments as needed. In addition, I am going to run the same layout as the Toxic to take a little more guesswork out of the ball reaction. I have been going through a good number of balls (more than I'd like to-but I can't help it), so I want to be sure this is done right.
I will find out on Friday and post up my results.