Post by: dpunky on May 12, 2005, 01:13:58 AM
If you had the chance to pick a pro bowler to join the Hammer pro staff for next season, who would it be?
If I could choose, I would have Walter Ray Williams Jr. on the staff
Post by: Mr Lefty on May 12, 2005, 10:11:24 AM
--------------------
Favortie Companies: Track & Hammer
Gee I wonder how would the slogan be if they combined both...
"Nothing hits like a...Evolutionary Revolutionary"
Post by: JamesCube on May 12, 2005, 10:24:26 AM
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Lake LeBoeuf Lanes is where real men go to bowl.
Current 2-ball Arsenal: Sling Blade, The Deal
Post by: HammerHombre on May 12, 2005, 10:29:14 AM
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Chris Heringer
Post by: LuckyLefty on May 12, 2005, 10:38:36 AM
circa black hammer 2001 time.
I like the local guy already on their amateur staff.
Best thrower in the world, best bowler I don't know about that!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: JOE FALCO on May 12, 2005, 11:34:43 AM
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: anotherwindup on May 12, 2005, 11:40:44 AM
quote:
PA has been throwing Hammer already, but according to another post, it looks like he may be going elsewhere.
Link?
Where did you hear this?
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Post by: shelley on May 12, 2005, 11:53:39 AM
quote:
Where did you hear this?
See http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=86019&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5. Dunno if it's official or simply a rumor, but that's where the idea came from.
SH
Post by: dpunky on May 12, 2005, 12:21:25 PM
I believe Norm was on Hammer's staff years ago (he did have a ball that beared his name). He's been successful with Hammer in the past. I think Hammer's current and future lineups will fit his game.
One player that I think is a longshot is Amleto Monacelli. He's now a free agent. I like his style of play, and I believe Hammer would make a good fit for him.
Post by: anotherwindup on May 12, 2005, 12:27:58 PM
Also check out some of the slogans for Hammer.
I'm not sure Duke or Walter are firey enough for Hammer.
PA was a good fit, but if the rumor is true, then Hammer will have to look for a new face to represent them.
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Edited on 5/12/2005 12:20 PM
Post by: dpunky on May 12, 2005, 12:35:42 PM
quote:
Check out Hammer's Ads in the bowling magazines.
Also check out some of the slogans for Hammer.
I'm not sure Duke or Walter are firey enough for Hammer.
PA was a good fit, but if the rumor is true, then Hammer will have to look for a new face to represent them.
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Edited on 5/12/2005 12:20 PM
Jason,
I can see your point. If we are going to find someone that would be "firery", I would want to get Robert Smith on the Hammer staff. That guy has intensity, and he can throw a ball with a ton of mph!!!!
If I was Hammer, I would try to lure Robert Smith away from Storm.
dpunky
Post by: anotherwindup on May 12, 2005, 12:42:09 PM
Wiseman
Smith
The problem with that is this. Hammer is still a relatively small manufacturer. Reguardless of the fact that Ebonite owns them, Brian still has a budget and limited resources to work with. I would more likely expect to see a few more lower priced staffers, rather than 1 high priced one.
For example- I believe Osku is bowling trials. He is currently on Hammer's International Staff. If he makes it through trials, I would fully expect Hammer to sign him to a national PBA deal.
A couple other names that come to mind that would look good wearing a Hammer.
Bedolla
Hurd
Torgeson
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Post by: DP3 on May 12, 2005, 01:32:07 PM
Since Hammer is the official "Badass Company" of bowling, they need more Badass Players other than Allen and Archer. I for one would like to see Wiseman, and maybe the brothers Traber on staff(They don't throw it really well, but they fit the image).
--------------------
-DP3
Respect the Game
Post by: dpunky on May 12, 2005, 02:13:10 PM
I'm going to throw this name out because his actions recently: Randy Pedersen. Yes, I know what your thinking, why him? Like him or not, this guy plays with a lot of intensity, and he wears his emotions on his sleave. In the Tournament of Champions, Randy got pissed at the fan that distracted him on his last shot. He doesn't hold back on his comments, and he'll tell fans off (i.e. John McEnroe). I'm not saying this guy is my favorite player. This guy is a walking controversey, and if Hammer wants a badass, Randy maybe the one.
Post by: shelley on May 12, 2005, 02:30:23 PM
quote:
if Hammer wants a badass, Randy maybe the one.
Baby-face Pedersen? Weird.
SH
Post by: anotherwindup on May 12, 2005, 03:01:20 PM
NO on the Trabers IMO. Attitude, but not the image of Hammer, IMO.
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Post by: Mr Lefty on May 12, 2005, 03:12:18 PM
how about "the chief", brian himmler...also a fiery competitor
other names to throw in the hat would be barnes and bv but both are with columbia and amf respectively...
--------------------
Favortie Companies: Track & Hammer
Gee I wonder how would the slogan be if they combined both...
"Nothing hits like a...Evolutionary Revolutionary"
Post by: anotherwindup on May 12, 2005, 03:19:22 PM
I would think someone would get the ax from Storm if PA is joining them. Maybe the Chief?
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Post by: BowlerKidR on May 12, 2005, 03:31:17 PM
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"Strike for show, spare for dough"
I LIKE TO BOWL
Im A Hammer Head 100%
Post by: anotherwindup on May 12, 2005, 04:10:01 PM
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Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Post by: ChinaManB on May 12, 2005, 04:38:52 PM
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"Make it idiot-proof, and someone will make a better idiot."
Post by: dpunky on May 12, 2005, 07:43:44 PM
quote:
I'm going to vote for Tony Reyes....dont't know why just thought he would fit.
--------------------
"Make it idiot-proof, and someone will make a better idiot."
I wouldn't mind having Tony Reyes on the staff....though I'm not sure if he fits the "Badass" image. He sure sweats alot when he bowls (I can relate since I tend to do that when I do my 10 game practice sets). Maybe he should tie a bandana on his head to soak up the sweat on his forehead......plus the bandana can give him a "badass" appearance.
Ditto to all that say NO to the Trabers joining Hammer
Post by: DanR on May 13, 2005, 08:30:03 AM
I don't buy balls they use on TV because same ball for me will not react like theirs, that's why they are PROS. I buy balls from watching other local house bowlers use their equipment. This way I can best judge how good the balls are. If the local guy can make it look good then it's a good ball.
If we really want to see which balls are the best, no manufacture should pay or give free balls or even incentives. Let the bowlers use whatever they want.
Post by: dpunky on May 13, 2005, 09:10:44 AM
quote:
Bowlers need a reality check. I heard in a conversation at my center that they buy balls from watching the TV shows. If this was true, why isn't which ever brand WRIII's brand #1? Why is Storm still in business after their staff players didn't have a great year? Do you buy Columbia balls because Chris Barnes bowled well this year?
I don't buy balls they use on TV because same ball for me will not react like theirs, that's why they are PROS. I buy balls from watching other local house bowlers use their equipment. This way I can best judge how good the balls are. If the local guy can make it look good then it's a good ball.
If we really want to see which balls are the best, no manufacture should pay or give free balls or even incentives. Let the bowlers use whatever they want.
DanR,
I'd like to put my two cents on this topic since I covered it in the "Patrick Allen not resigning with Hammer" feed. The whole point of having PBA members on pro staffs of bowling companies is for them to be walking advertisements for ball companies. Bowling companies for the most part can't afford to put commercials on prime time TV. And since most serious bowlers watch PBA televised events, companies would pay pros to throw their latest and greates bowling ball releases, hoping that a bowler would be interested in buying that product. Lets face it, sports companies pay athletes to promote their product directly or indirectly. Whether you want to believe it or not, there will be people that want to buy the newest basketball shoe that LeBron James wears because he either plays well in them, or looks cool in them. That same strategy is used in promoting bowling products.
If you are lucky enough to be around house bowlers that throw the newest equipment and you can have the chance to evaluate and answer questions about their equipment, then that is great. I wish I had that opportunity. The times that I get to practice, I only see casual bowlers and kids that are holding bowling parties. There are no "elite" bowlers that I can observe and I can ask questions on bowling equipment. No...I don't solely buy my equipment just by seeing it used by a pro. It definitely sparks my interest and it gets me to do more research. I use multiple means to get my decision. I depend on pros, research, and feedback from both local users and people on this forum to help me make my decision.
Post by: JOE FALCO on May 13, 2005, 09:13:39 AM
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: anotherwindup on May 13, 2005, 09:25:06 AM
quote:
I don't buy balls they use on TV because same ball for me will not react like theirs, that's why they are PROS. I buy balls from watching other local house bowlers use their equipment. This way I can best judge how good the balls are. If the local guy can make it look good then it's a good ball.
If we really want to see which balls are the best, no manufacture should pay or give free balls or even incentives. Let the bowlers use whatever they want.
Dan- I actually agree with this part of your statement. You are probably a good competitive scratch player, if I had to blindly guess. You are the type player that the manufacturers know will not buy from TV. But, there are tons of players not of this capacity, that WILL buy from seeing a ball on TV. These are the fans that the mfrs are ADVERTISING to.
Now for the type of players like you, many mfrs are developing their Amatuer staffs and clubs. That way more "local" players are throwing the equipment and will sell more balls to the players with the opinion like yours. I know that I have effected the local market in the past year, just because I only throw Hammer products.
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Post by: dpunky on May 13, 2005, 04:51:57 PM
quote:quote:
I don't buy balls they use on TV because same ball for me will not react like theirs, that's why they are PROS. I buy balls from watching other local house bowlers use their equipment. This way I can best judge how good the balls are. If the local guy can make it look good then it's a good ball.
If we really want to see which balls are the best, no manufacture should pay or give free balls or even incentives. Let the bowlers use whatever they want.
Dan- I actually agree with this part of your statement. You are probably a good competitive scratch player, if I had to blindly guess. You are the type player that the manufacturers know will not buy from TV. But, there are tons of players not of this capacity, that WILL buy from seeing a ball on TV. These are the fans that the mfrs are ADVERTISING to.
Now for the type of players like you, many mfrs are developing their Amatuer staffs and clubs. That way more "local" players are throwing the equipment and will sell more balls to the players with the opinion like yours. I know that I have effected the local market in the past year, just because I only throw Hammer products.
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Jason,
My thoughts exactly!!!!
Post by: strikenout on May 13, 2005, 05:12:41 PM
Post by: anotherwindup on May 13, 2005, 10:05:52 PM
quote:
parker bohn wihtout a douobt best left handed bowler of all time!
Sorry, bro. Does the name Earl Anthony mean anything to you????
--------------------
Jason Jenkins
'05-'06 Hammer Amateur Staff
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Post by: DanR on May 15, 2005, 10:31:42 AM
Are you comparing bowling to basketball? Do you have any idea the difference in customer base your referring to? Obviously you're not in the corporate world because you would understand. If you know someone who's a corporate guy and ask them the same question, are por bowlers worth it? Better yet, ask a honest opinion from the higher ups at the ball companies. Just because you can type on the site doesn't mean you know anything about the business world.
Post by: TJFreaky24 on May 15, 2005, 10:57:37 AM
quote:
Bowlers need a reality check. I heard in a conversation at my center that they buy balls from watching the TV shows. If this was true, why isn't which ever brand WRIII's brand #1? Why is Storm still in business after their staff players didn't have a great year? Do you buy Columbia balls because Chris Barnes bowled well this year?
I don't buy balls they use on TV because same ball for me will not react like theirs, that's why they are PROS. I buy balls from watching other local house bowlers use their equipment. This way I can best judge how good the balls are. If the local guy can make it look good then it's a good ball.
If we really want to see which balls are the best, no manufacture should pay or give free balls or even incentives. Let the bowlers use whatever they want.
Just one question DANR...who exactly is Walter Ray III?
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I am the best kept secret....
Redemption has never been so sweet!!
Post by: StormRoto on May 15, 2005, 11:11:00 AM
Post by: dpunky on May 15, 2005, 02:49:32 PM
quote:
punky,
Are you comparing bowling to basketball? Do you have any idea the difference in customer base your referring to? Obviously you're not in the corporate world because you would understand. If you know someone who's a corporate guy and ask them the same question, are por bowlers worth it? Better yet, ask a honest opinion from the higher ups at the ball companies. Just because you can type on the site doesn't mean you know anything about the business world.
DanR,
First of all, you have no clue what I do to make any assumptions of my profession or experiences...or further more my education. Let me give you the 411. I did my undergraduate studies at George Washington University through their Business School, earning a Bachelor of Business Adminstration in Information Systems. Within my Business School program, I took advertising, marketing, and communication classes. On top of that, I interned at corporations where I had to did web advertising and database marketing. I've worked at a non-profit association where we had to target nitch markets of people for membership. And I currently work at a company where we have to market out information technology and management services to multi-million dollar corporate and government clients. So if I don't have enough experience, then I must be responding to a CEO of a major billion dollar corporation.
Alright...you want an example of current advertising that is not necessarily going to the "tradtional serious bowler", here are two examples of ads that are currently in American Bowler (the magazine ABC members get quarterly).
The first one is from Ebonite. It's for the XXCel. It features a guy's face with his eyes staring straight out at you with the words: "I live for the score. The pickup. The action. The sound of silence from my opponent. I live for the line, die by the break, and pray for more important things than a lucky fall. I live for the game that's perfect. And trading in my soul for three more strikes in the tenth is not out of the question. I live for the moment when I'm back in the house. Because I live to bowl and I bowl to win." There are no numbers or stats on this ball, something that is necessary if you were targeting this to the "traditional serious bowler" and not the mainstream. This ad reminds me of a gatorade ad/commercial and the Madden Live video game ads/commericals for video games.
The second ad is from Hammer. It's for the Big Deal. It features a tough looking guy with a tattoo on his left arm with the words: "You will offend someone. Deal with it." Again, this ad contains no numbers or stats about this ball. This is an ad for the mainstream bowler, not the serious one. This is something that you would see as, oddly enough, a BASKETBALL AD!!!!
DanR, if you've taken marketing, advertising, and/or persuation classes, as I have, you would know that advertising and marketing departments of major corporations use multiple means to get their products publicized to different groups of customers. Bowling companies are no different. Bowling companies NEVER USE ONE WAY OF MARKETING OR ADVERTISING TO SELL THEIR PRODUCT!!!! Most of their marketing teams are a blend of people that have worked in other corporations or been in the sport of bowling. The two ads that I featured here were probably targeted to the mainstream bowler. Ads that have included stats (which are featured on the companies website, pro shops, and bowling centers) are targeted to the serious bowler. Product placement on pro bowlers, from the balls that they use on the telecast.... and the bowling shoes that they wear, are all marketing ideas by the bowling company. Let me guess, but I would say that that is also done in major sports like football, BASKETBALL, and baseball. It may not be consciously apparent to you, but product association with a player has a subconscious effect to influence on certain people to buy that product (If you've ever taken a communications course like PERSUASION through you're university's communications department, you would understand). DanR, the people that you may see bowling in your center may be amateur staff members of bowling companies. They may be tester of new bowling products, but by the fact that they are bowling with the newest bowling equipment they are influencing you.....that is a form of advertising!!!!!!
WOW...I hope that I made my point across to the people reading this feed that advertising is done by multiple means to multiple groups of people. DanR, let me answer your first two questions:
(1) Have you asked a corporate guy if pro bowlers are worth it?
Yes, I have corporate guys that I bowl with in league and in open play and they definitely agree to some extent.
(2) Have you asked the ball companies for their honest opinion?
Yes, I constantly communicate with the various ball companies. They give me real good feedback. I would encourage you to ask them if it is worth it to have pros on their staff. Maybe, you should look at the sales figures for Brunswick, Storm, C300, Ebonite/Hammer and match that up against MoRich and Lane #1.
If someone wants to chime in on DanR's respone, feel free. I'd like to hear feedback on this.
When I started this feed, my original intent was to see which pros you would want on Hammer's staff. I had no idea it would morph to this!!!
dpunky
Post by: DanR on May 15, 2005, 11:38:44 PM
If you have all this side inside info from the manufactures, tell me what you would offer the top pro bowlers on tour? Are they worth $2K per month, $4K per month, $6K per month, $8K per month, $10K per month? Why stop there, give them 200K per year since they the major factor in balls sales?
What I'm saying is what are the pros worth using their products? Do you remember the MVP line from Brunswick? They had balls from Aulby, WRIII and Parker Bohn. How long were these balls in the market for? Aulby was the best of the three. Pro names don't sell balls. Why are the number of ProAM not increasing? I remember they had to cancell a few of them because the turn out was so bad.
Go ask your pro shop or the local distributor because NO bowler used the Morich Weapon of Mass Bias on TV and it was one of the hottest balls for awhile. Nothing fancy but it performed, the ball hoooked alot. Goes to prove that performance will out sell a pro bowlers using a bad product.
Do you think the pros will agree to a contract based on number of balls sold?
In perspective, X-Game stars make 10 - 100 times what pro bowlers get and they're worth it because of the larger audience. For your info, the number of bowlers are on the DECLINE, just look at your leagues.
I'm done on this subject
Post by: dpunky on May 16, 2005, 06:00:58 AM
quote:
punky,
If you have all this side inside info from the manufactures, tell me what you would offer the top pro bowlers on tour? Are they worth $2K per month, $4K per month, $6K per month, $8K per month, $10K per month? Why stop there, give them 200K per year since they the major factor in balls sales?
What I'm saying is what are the pros worth using their products? Do you remember the MVP line from Brunswick? They had balls from Aulby, WRIII and Parker Bohn. How long were these balls in the market for? Aulby was the best of the three. Pro names don't sell balls. Why are the number of ProAM not increasing? I remember they had to cancell a few of them because the turn out was so bad.
Go ask your pro shop or the local distributor because NO bowler used the Morich Weapon of Mass Bias on TV and it was one of the hottest balls for awhile. Nothing fancy but it performed, the ball hoooked alot. Goes to prove that performance will out sell a pro bowlers using a bad product.
Do you think the pros will agree to a contract based on number of balls sold?
In perspective, X-Game stars make 10 - 100 times what pro bowlers get and they're worth it because of the larger audience. For your info, the number of bowlers are on the DECLINE, just look at your leagues.
I'm done on this subject
DanR,
Done already on this subject THAT YOU CREATED? I was just getting started
Just kidding with you!!! Anyways....you have some good questions in this reply. (1) What would I pay a pro bowler on tour? That all depends on how involoved I want the particular pro in the bowling company. If I wanted a pro to be directly involoved in the research/development, testing, marketing (ads, commercials, exclusive use, etc.), I would pay them more than a pro that does not have a contract with a company and is only using the bowling equipment on TV. Free agents like Walter Ray Williams Jr. are paid a one time fee of $10k to $20k by a bowling company to use their equipment on TV. Using a sliding scale, I believe pros that are more involved in the company would make more...like Chris Barnes or Parker Bohn III. Maybe they make $80k or $100k per year.
(2) Are these pros worth it? It all depends on how you utilize them. Bowling companies, like others, take chances by associating bowling products with pros. Sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't. Failures do include Brunswick's MVP line (Good Example). But I think bowling companies have found the right mix by just having pros using the product on TV. Pro names alone don't sell balls........but wins by a pro using the bowling product sells bowling balls. There are definitely pros and cons for paying athletes in general the money you pay them. But that would take too long to go into. If you want a clearer result, look at the companies financial balance sheets to see if they lost money.
(3) MoRich Weapon of Mass Bias outsold all other balls in a pro shop? The WMB was a good selling bowling ball. But take a close look at the balls on your pro shop. How many MoRich bowling balls do they offer in comparison to Brusnswick, Storm, Columbia 300, Track, AMF, Ebonite, Hammer. I bet for every one MoRich ball, Storm, for example, offers three balls. The bigger companies offer more variety balls to sell to a wider variety of bowlers. They are going for a bigger market share than for a niche market that MoRich and Lane#1 goes for. In the bowling industry, like other industries, market share counts. I believe that MoRich and Lane#1 are doing very well in their sales. But they do wish that they had the number of sales that Brunswick and Storm have since they have more of the market share.
(4) Bowling is in a decline. YES I can see that clearly. I just had my bowling center close because of rising leased space costs. I do see the decline on league members and tournament participants. That's why bowling must look outside the box. Remember, the PBA almost went under in the mid 90s if it wasn't for a former Microsoft exec who bought the PBA and overhalled it and turned it to the success it is today. How did he do it, by looking outside the box and doing things non-traditionally (better graphics, music, etc) without offending the bowling purist. Storm is doing this by promoting their scents on balls. They got some good PR by making it to Good Morning America and promoting their balls for their scent to a non bowling market. I don't remember the last time a bowling company got some much press for a ball. I praise companies efforts to try to expand their markets. It's not an easy effort, but it's a must if you're trying to keep the sport of bowling alive. You can't merely focus on niche market to keep bowling growing. Expansion is the key.
I promote the sport of bowling in my office full of non bowlers, and to my friends. It maybe a small effort on my part. But if that translates them to go to a bowling to have fun at least, then I have done my part. I encourage you to do the same.
By the way DanR........If you had the chance to pick a pro bowler to join the Hammer pro staff for next season, who would it be?
dpunky
Post by: dpunky on May 16, 2005, 12:43:16 PM
quote:
punky,
Are you comparing bowling to basketball? Do you have any idea the difference in customer base your referring to? Obviously you're not in the corporate world because you would understand. If you know someone who's a corporate guy and ask them the same question, are por bowlers worth it? Better yet, ask a honest opinion from the higher ups at the ball companies. Just because you can type on the site doesn't mean you know anything about the business world.
I also contacted Brian Graham from Hammer to get his take on PBA members on the pro staff. Here's his response:
As one of the prominent brands in the bowling ball business, we place a
great deal of importance on the PBA to create exposure for our
products.
PBA players are the most recognizable faces in the sport of bowling,
and
the PBA provides an opportunity to get exposure on national television.
Typically, success on the Tour results in added credibility for the
product line and creates additional awareness for new products.
The real value of the PBA is the creation of stars in the sport of
bowling that we can use at industry tradeshows and appearances. The
PBA
provides the stage to showcase the best in bowling, and we support them
with their efforts. While there is no way to measure the exact return
on our investment into the PBA, we do believe that there is an impact
to
the brand.
If you have additional questions, please contact me.
Brian Graham
Hammer Brand Manager
P.O. Box 746
Hopkinsville, KY 42240
Direct Line: (270) 881-1234
Toll Free: (800) 626-8350
bgraham@ebonite.com
Post by: TOON on May 17, 2005, 12:12:38 AM
--------------------
TOON
Proud to be a HAMMERHEAD!!