Post by: Horse Tooth on November 12, 2003, 04:34:54 PM
is going long, too long. Drilled with the pin about 1" above the center of the
bridge and the CG just outside to the right of the center of the grip.
My bowlers throws above average speed and above average revs. He just can't get any area with this drilling. He is looking to have at least 3-4 boards to play with if he misses. Can anyone suggest a drilling, from their previous experience with this ball that will work well in this situation?
The lanes are brand new sythetics, dry outside medium oil in the middle.
Any help is greatly appreciated. If you need additional information please let me know.
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Todd Ginter
Todd@DandRsProShop.com
Post by: charlest on November 13, 2003, 08:27:50 AM
If this drilling doesn't give him enough area, I wouldn't re-drill it but I'd sand the ball to 600 smooth and put a light shine on it. His speed in relation to the amount of oil will govern how rough the surface has to be.
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Side comment:
For a ball with such a mild core (don't care what the Lane#1 fanatics say, this is a MILD core.) and for a higher avg speed bowler, I am slightly surprised the initial drill had the pin above the bridge, UNLESS the lanes were fairly dry. Far too many people these days seem to start with the initial assumption that they will be putting the pin above the bridge.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: Horse Tooth on November 13, 2003, 08:48:47 AM
Thanks for the reply as it will be most helpful.
I agree with the pin above the bridge. I personally will
keep the pin below the fingers or in line with the PAP.
Thanks again for your reply.
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Todd Ginter
Todd@DandRsProShop.com
Post by: BuzzsawMike on November 13, 2003, 11:25:41 AM
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Mike Savoia
Lane #1 / Vise Pro Staff
Area 300 Pro Shop
http://www.techcitybowl.com
Post by: charlest on November 13, 2003, 12:08:10 PM
quote:
I don't wish start with anyone on the strength of the diamond core or anyother
buzzsaw core, but since they're all the same diamond core with variations and so many have posted of the hard roll and hit of this line, I can only wonder what one would call mild vs. strong.
I do know the short time I've had mine which has pin below fingers, using on lightly oiled lines with outside angle with a milder release and matched against several other med. aggresive balls I have, this one hits the hardest. No question!
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Don B
A core with an RG range of 2.527 to 2.557, with only an RG differential of .028 MUST be considered a mild core. Regarding hardest hitting, that is the result of the match up of the core, the cover, the drilling, the oil pattern AND the bowler's release. If that combination has produced good results for you, then wonderful. The Power Koil 18 cover on the Silver Diamond is one of the strongest, if not the strongest resin covers currently available. As modified by pearlization and polish and used with this mild core, the PK 18 coverstock can retain energy very well, indeed.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: Saw Mill on November 13, 2003, 03:31:35 PM
Dave (aka Mister C)
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If You Are Not Using a BuzzSaw, All You Get is SAW-dusted!!
Post by: charlest on November 13, 2003, 09:00:00 PM
quote:
Charlest: good info but I was under the impression the Power koil 18 cover from Brunswick was fairly new and the diamond the first of Dynathanes balls or at least a much earlier one??
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Don B
The Power Koil 18 coverstock was first used on the original Brunswick Danger Zone made in 1996 (could be 1997). FWIW I hated the Danger ZOne, but have gron to love PK 18 if it is briought under some control like the Fire Quantum and the Silver Diamond, with a 4x3 drilling.
Not sure what you mean about "the diamond the first of Dynathanes balls or at least a much earlier one". Dynothane, before it was bought by Storm in 1999, had the majority of its balls made by Columbia and a few by Storm, btu not by Brunswick.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: T-GOD on November 14, 2003, 09:43:30 AM
quote:First we must define what a mild core is. Numbers alone won't tell us what is weak or strong. That's the problem every has. If you put a baseball like and size higher density core and displace it off center enough, the differential will be on the higher side. And, the RG #'s will fall into roughly the same range. So, does that mean the core is strong, based on the numbers..?
A core with an RG range of 2.527 to 2.557, with only an RG differential of .028 MUST be considered a mild core.
No. Because a round ball going around the inside of another round ball, will not generate the same force as a diamond rotating around the center of a ball. The same holds true for any other shape. RG and Diff. numbers are static numbers, not "gyroscopic force numbers" generated from putting the cores in motion.
So, in reality, the numbers all the manufacturers are giving you don't tell the real story..!!
Post by: charlest on November 14, 2003, 10:01:42 AM
Due to the incredible number of variables involved with cores, covers, bowlers and oil, I cannot believe we can assign strengths to cores, in and of themselves. Because of the sheer number of variables, we can only draw the most vague generalities regarding whether we like a core as it works with certain drillings and ad with certain coverstocks.
On an absolute scale, I must believe the numbers define a core, as a manufacturer gives its specifications. As such, this core, while it may work great with Brunswick's coverstocks for a percentage of the bowling population, has to be placed on the milder side of the 50% range of core strength.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: T-GOD on November 14, 2003, 12:27:21 PM
Real strength is measured by gyroscopic force..!! The more gyroscopic force generated and stored at impact upon the pins, tells me if the core is strong or weak, not a bunch of static numbers. =:^D
Post by: A_P_K on November 14, 2003, 12:51:50 PM
The Visionary Blue Gryphon stores up a tremendous amount of energy going down the lane, hitting the pins hard, breaking up a ton of terrible hits. Alot of hits that look like nasty splits end up carrying strikes because of what I would describe as "core power".
Visionary also stated they reduced the DIF in order to save more energy when entering the pocket for improved carry potential. They also called this their most forgiving ball ever made, on the lanes and in the pocket.
As far as hook potential and flare potential are concerned, the ball would be considered "weak" in comparison to other balls with similar numbers, but to me this is one of the strongest cores I've ever used.=:^D
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"It is Origin...the pure embodiment of power!"
Pin_Krusher IS a serious threat to modern day bowling wood as we know it today.
Post by: charlest on November 14, 2003, 01:59:16 PM
quote:
Charles, I guess you didn't understand a word I said. What does strong or weak mean..? Just because the Diff is high, does that mean the core is strong..? What about the spin rate..? Just because it's low, does that mean the core is strong..?
Real strength is measured by gyroscopic force..!! The more gyroscopic force generated and stored at impact upon the pins, tells me if the core is strong or weak, not a bunch of static numbers. =:^D
No, as you can tell by all my posts, I'm just another moron around here.
As I said ... oh, wait, it doesn't make any difference what I said.
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I'm afraid I'll have to go by the current measurements until the manufacturers add GF (Gyroscopic force) to the core specifications. Maybe Lane#1 will be the first to add it.
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Until there are measurements other than RG differential and MB differential and RG, those will have to be the physical measurements as the "strength" of a core, if such strength can be gauged.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: T-GOD on November 14, 2003, 09:33:50 PM
quote:
Due to the incredible number of variables involved with cores, covers, bowlers and oil, I cannot believe we can assign strengths to cores, in and of themselves.
quote:Charles, you're saying 2 different things here. First you say you can't assign strengths in and of themselves, then you say you must believe the numbers. You can't have it both ways. =:^D
On an absolute scale, I must believe the numbers define a core
Post by: LuckyLefty on November 14, 2003, 10:21:56 PM
For whatever reason the lower diff Silver Diamond is a very strong ball.
Very similar(but different) from the Battle Zone Bullet. Certainly a very strong go long pearl, that has the apparently same coverstock(Powercoil) and
the BZ Bullet has much higher diff numbers.
However most would say the balls are similar in strength but different in look/or movement on the lanes!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: charlest on November 15, 2003, 12:30:51 AM
quote:quote:
Due to the incredible number of variables involved with cores, covers, bowlers and oil, I cannot believe we can assign strengths to cores, in and of themselves.quote:Charles, you're saying 2 different things here. First you say you can't assign strengths in and of themselves, then you say you must believe the numbers. You can't have it both ways. =:^D
On an absolute scale, I must believe the numbers define a core
The "we" was us as bowlers. "We" decide we like a core and thus we decide it is strong.
Manufacturers assign the numbers based on measurements.
When they have a gyroscopic strength number, we can add them to our decison making process, instead of using, "Oh, Gee I like that ball; therefore that core must be strong!"
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: charlest on November 15, 2003, 12:34:09 AM
quote:
I agree with TGod on this.
For whatever reason the lower diff Silver Diamond is a very strong ball.
Very similar(but different) from the Battle Zone Bullet. Certainly a very strong go long pearl, that has the apparently same coverstock(Powercoil) and
the BZ Bullet has much higher diff numbers.
However most would say the balls are similar in strength but different in look/or movement on the lanes!
REgards,
Luckylefty
The SD has the PK 18 cover, one of the strongest resin covers made even today, 7 years after it was first introduced. The Bullet has a PK 17 extra length cover.
I must believe that the strength of the SD, one of the weakest balls in the Lane#1 current line-up is due to the cover, not the core ... The core does help the ball (cover + core = ball) retain energy on medium to medium-light oil patterns.
.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: T-GOD on November 15, 2003, 07:39:22 AM
Post by: LuckyLefty on November 15, 2003, 09:12:56 AM
I stand by my Powercoil statement, (We've had this discussion before).
Back when I first encountered the Silver Bullet, Lane 1 listed it's coverstock simply as Powercoil.(note not Powerkoil). No number was attached.
They did list the Cherry Pearl(original not bomb as Powercoil 18)
It implied a difference.
On the recent reintroduction of the Silver I think they announced it was Powerkoil 18. I'm not sure that is true of the earlier versions.
By the movement of the first releases I saw I believed they were Powercoil or what I believe to be Powerkoil 17. Lane 1 did emphasize a difference at that time in the marketing materials between Powercoil and Powercoil 18.
I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe they are different.
If there is something stating that the original release Silver Bullet was powerkoil 17 then I stand corrected. Does anyone have it?
The balls BZ Bullet and Silver Diamond are so similar in appearance feel and reaction, only the distinctive Diamond core move is different.
Both are purely GREAT in the go long flip category!!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: charlest on November 16, 2003, 04:19:50 PM
quote:
Charles, If the Diff is high, does that mean the core is strong..? If the spin rate is low, does that mean the core is strong..? Is an early rolling core stronger, or a late rolling core..? Can one core be stronger in the oil and another be stronger in the dry..? What does strong or weak mean..? =:^D
If you care for my opinion on the matter, given the specifications that the ball manufacturers give the public about a core, I would view a core as
not so much strong but at or above the median point such that
- its low RG were at or below 2.55 AND its RG differential were at or above .050,
and
- its low RG were at or below 2.50 and its RG diff were at or above .040.
Until they add a measure of the gyroscopic value or the add the Mas Differential as a part of its meaured specification, any guess as to either of those values is fraught with speculation.
Look, T-God, I and 99% of the ballreviews community trust you as a driller and a ball expert, but until we can put some numbers to the what we think reflect the power of a core, any discussion will just go back and forth based on feelings.
Do you remember Phil Cardenale's posting in the Dyno-Thane forum questioning the usefulness of Mass bias in a ball? His bottom line was "show me this results in a better strike carrying ball" (my paraphrasing). I wouldn't ask for such proof. Just let Lane#1 publish the gyroscopic numbers for his cores and for say, Brunswick cores, as they have the same coverstocks. While I suspect there is something to the Lane#1 diamond cores, like the SD's C core and the Blueberry/raspberry's C2 core, I often wonder if it's just their low flare allowing the very strong PK 18 coverstock to retain a great amount of its energy for lower rev release.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: charlest on November 16, 2003, 04:21:57 PM
quote:
charlest: sorry, Dynothane a typo, meant Lane 1.
On the same note, isn't the Inferno the same power koil cover?
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Don B
The Inferno's activator coverstock is supposedly the PK 18 cover with an additive, which I believe makes it more aggressive. I believe the Raging Red Fuze's cover is similar with a different additive; Buzzsaw-UK said this was the resin/carbide cover used in the Cherry Bomb balls.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."