win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters  (Read 20601 times)

Mr Buzzsaw

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 30
Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« on: March 30, 2006, 03:38:08 AM »
On a recent trip up to the Brunswick plant, to work out my plans for new product for the upcoming season, I asked if we could use the Throwbot. I had questions about their findings that CG didn't matter.

It is my belief and my company's belief that the ending CG and static weights do matter, which is the purpose of our Gravity Balance System product. I had some reservations on how Brunswicks test was administered and wanted to set up the test a bit differently to prove my point.

The boys at Brunswick(Ray Edwards and Billy Orlikowski) were happy and eager to accommodate my request.

The lane was freshly oiled with a blend of oil from the center gradually tapering out to 5 units on the gutter, roughly 42 ft in length with clean backends.

My contention with the Brunswick test was that because balls were only thrown from 15 at the arrows out to 5 down the lane, they weren't covering enough boards to maximize the balls potential. Thus, you couldn't get true results. The static weights/CG didn't come into play yet.

When the ball is in the oil and sliding, static weights or ending CG placement don't have an effect on the ball. Weights only come into play when the ball is gripping the lane and hooking.

What I proposed was to move the throwbot as far left as possible, covering more boards, sending it wider down the lane and letting the ball react to it's fullest potential.

The first test we did with the same pin in the leverage position, 1 positive side weight(pos. CG placement)and 1 with negative side(neg. CG position).

Both balls basically made it back to the pocket. Brunswick's contention was that both balls covered the same amount of boards. This statement is basically true.

But, what we found was that the positive side ball struck every time. While the negative side ball did strike some, it was rolled out at the pocket, leaving a bunch of 10's and 7's.

Billy Orlikowski said to me, and I quote "this is the biggest difference I've ever seen doing this test".

It's up to you on how you want to interpret this. Yes, both balls covered the same amount of boards to the pocket, but the positive side weight covered more boards thru the pocket, rolling off the deck in back of the 5 pin, carrying everytime. Whereas the negative side ball deflected more after it hit the pocket, leaving 10's and 7's.

I wasn't finished with the test. I went on to say that the CG was more important than the pin, in symmetrical balls. This is impossible you say.

Well, we did the test again with 2 balls. One had a leverage pin and negative CG, the other with a pin 6 3/4" from the PAP and positive CG in the leverage position.

Most bowlers would expect the ball with the pin in your track(6 3/4" pin to PAP) to go straight as an arrow. But, to their surprise, this ball hooked as much as the leverage pin ball, and carried just as well.

So, which is more important?

Proof that the CG matters is right in Brunswick's own video. As I stated and proved that until the ball starts gripping the lane and hooking more, you won't see much difference.

You can see this proof in Brunswick's video. http://www.brunswickbowling.com/uploads/vids/CG_demo_5-05.wmv

There are going to be 8 shots bowled, switching between the positive CG and negative CG. Both balls react about the same in the first few shots on the FRESH OIL. You can see both balls coming in about half pocket, kicking the 10 pin out late.

If you watch closely at the first 2 shots, the 10 pin goes out easier on the first shot thrown with the positive CG. The second shot is thrown with the neg. CG and the 10 "barely" goes out.

As the lanes break down, you can see both balls gradually hooking more, flushing higher in the pocket.

NOW COMES THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE AS THE LANES BREAK DOWN EVEN MORE.

In shots number 6 and seven, both balls went thru the beak, luckily breaking up a split. Both of these balls were thrown with positive side weight.

You would expect the next ball to also go high, because the lanes are breaking down and hooking more. But, the next shot is thrown with the negative CG, and the ball holds the pocket, laying off a bit on the backend and striking, tripping out the 4 pin.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE WITH STATIC WEIGHTS/CG PLACEMENT.

I'd like to thank Brunswick for providing us with this footage. I hope this puts an end to the CG/static weight debate.

Sincerely,
Richie Sposato
President/CEO Lane #1




Edited on 3/30/2006 12:54 PM

 

MegaMav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #136 on: September 15, 2007, 04:25:24 PM »
quote:
your opinion and others have 0 value.


Why bother posting on this site then, if you're the all knowing?

Grow up. Bring your Lane #1 turds, any day, any PBA pattern, and I'll be sure to hand you a hefty loss with my negative CG drilled Absolute Inferno.
Or even my negative 1/2 ounce Seek & Destroy ONOZ!

I'm not going to regurgitate all of the posts I've made over the past 2 years on the subject because you dont pay attention, if you interested in a refresher course on my points, use the following link, and search under my username.

http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html
and/or see the wiki page for the CGNOMADDAH summary
http://www.bowlingwiki.net/wiki/index.php/Center_of_Gravity

Good luck, and take some Gingko Biloba for that memory problem.

Edited on 9/15/2007 4:58 PM

302efi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2609
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #137 on: September 15, 2007, 05:40:59 PM »
quote:
I'll be sure to hand you a hefty loss with my negative CG drilled Absolute Inferno.
Or even my negative 1/2 ounce Seek & Destroy ONOZ!


Actually its looks as if the CG is still on the right (positive side) of the grip center in those pics on both balls?

Mega how could the Absolute have a negitive CG, but yet a positive weight X-hole ?...Was this a extremly high top weight ball ?

...and since since the S&D is asym, I don't think the CG matters, only X-hole placement

Carry on guys

(I wonder if this post will get deleted as my first one did...lol)
--------------------
Roto-Grip

When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"

Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...

GTX

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 431
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #138 on: September 15, 2007, 06:59:15 PM »
quote:

Why bother posting on this site then, if you're the all knowing?



I am not like you, act like I know it all where in fact you have proven to be clueless .. I value the opinion of those I respect .. and guess what, you're not one of them


quote:

I'm not going to regurgitate all of the posts I've made over the past 2 years on the subject



flash news, wakeup .. your posts are worthless, hence you have been repeating yourself over & over & over & over & over .. did I say that enough !!  and no one is paying attention to you


quote:

Grow up. Bring your Lane #1 turds, any day, any PBA pattern, and I'll be sure to hand you a hefty loss with my negative CG drilled Absolute Inferno.
Or even my negative 1/2 ounce Seek & Destroy ONOZ!



here we go again .. talking the talk (which I admit, you're very good at), but why bother and waste my time when I know you won't show up and come up with all kind of excuses

OMG .. you call these negative CGs !!!  no wonder why you can't see the difference between washout, pocket and high shots ..

btw, make sure to check on BigB inserts color thing .. I am sure it will help you hook the ball more  

ps.  it is ownz not onoz
--------------------
Member of F.O.S.

Edited on 9/15/2007 7:00 PM

MegaMav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #139 on: September 15, 2007, 07:03:17 PM »
I'm not even going to bother slandering you, you've done a pretty good job showing that you bring nothing of substance to this debate, nor should anyone anticipate you doing so in the future.

GTX

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 431
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #140 on: September 16, 2007, 09:21:17 AM »
quote:
I'm not even going to bother slandering you, you've done a pretty good job showing that you bring nothing of substance to this debate


nope, I brought nothing to this debate .. I just showed how foolish you are, how you say things you have no clue what they mean .. how you can't even answer simple questions when the answer is too obvious.  Not to mention those so called "other variables" LOL .. oh wait .. maybe the AC was on during the video and the air pushed the ball a little .. we have to add that to the equation  

when you know how to read statistical analysis, come back and we might have a discussion

wait, that might be too much .. lets start with an easier one
when you know the difference between positive CG and negative CG, come back
--------------------
Member of F.O.S.

MegaMav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #141 on: September 16, 2007, 09:53:32 AM »
quote:
when you know how to read statistical analysis, come back and we might have a discussion


Read the wiki page for analysis, on CGNOMADDAH's stance.
http://www.bowlingwiki.net/wiki/index.php/Center_of_Gravity

I can regurgitate everything I've said in previous threads about analysis for YOU, make it as simple and well written as possible, it wont matter because I already know what your answer will be.

"You're a joke"
"You dont know anything"
"This is the Lane #1 forum not the Brunswick forum"
"I value no one's opinion but my own"
" F.O.S. "

Big text didnt work, apparently neither did the color.

Its not worth my keystrokes to repeat every point made on the wiki page.
Read it and respond with something of substance, heck even add to it, that'd be pretty impressive.

http://www.bowlingwiki.net/wiki/index.php/Center_of_Gravity

Otherwise, this is the last reply im giving you.

You've done a pretty good job thus far proving my point that you'll never contribute anything to this discussion outside of cattle prodding, its been a fact since the very beginning of this discussion, its time to prove me wrong.
--------------------
BowlingChat.net - "Welcome to the Underground"
BowlingWiki.net - "Where Bowlers Write History"

GTX

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 431
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #142 on: September 16, 2007, 02:18:06 PM »
quote:

"I value no one's opinion but my own"



not only you are a joke .. but a liar too !!!  

let me remind of what I said
quote:
I value the opinion of those I respect .. and guess what, you're not one of them


wait wait wait ..

when you made this comment
quote:
Good luck, and take some Gingko Biloba for that memory problem.

I see now how you know this Gingko stuff very well ... not only you can't remember what others said .. you actually make up stuff and claim others have said it .. is Gingko for this too !!  cause lemme tell you .. it is not doing good job ..

I admire you, you got great qualities .. I can't even think of which one to start with

quote:

to repeat



hahaha .. enough said .. you only good at "repeating" .. since it makes you feel good ... repeat all you want .. we will understand .. not that we will actually listen anyway

I am done with you ... when you can tell the difference between negative CG and positive CG .. we might talk .. but for now, go google, call BigB, call Barney ... do something so at least you might have an idea what is this all about
--------------------
Member of F.O.S.

MegaMav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #143 on: September 16, 2007, 02:49:33 PM »
quote:
You've done a pretty good job thus far proving my point that you'll never contribute anything to this discussion outside of cattle prodding, its been a fact since the very beginning of this discussion.

budcotten

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #144 on: September 16, 2007, 05:43:41 PM »
This is quite entertaining  the pissing match goin lol

Russell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5121
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #145 on: September 16, 2007, 09:24:03 PM »
quote:

quote:
What Brunswick's video clearly showed was that the neg. CG placement struck 100% of the time on that particular condition and the positive CG ball only struck 50% of the time.

Is that not signifcant to you..? =:^D



quote:
No, because it's throwbot. Can you not understand that no human can even approximate the consistency of throwbot?
I'll bet if a human was doing the test and the results came out the same you'd say there is human error.

Throwbot is why the results from the test are conclusive..!! There is no human error involved. I'm sorry, but nothing will ever satisfy you. =:^D



Yawn....same old crap....it gets spelled out and the Kool Aid drinkers won't accept it.  They continue to deny what is plainly on video.

The Lame 1 people are never going to get it.  Ritchie could release a statement saying that a Lane 1 ball cures cancer and there are a select few here that would believe it.
--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/rlrussell

The artist formerly known as "jabroni"

TWOHAND834

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4361
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #146 on: September 16, 2007, 09:51:51 PM »
Ronnie?????
--------------------
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator

If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
Former Classic Products Assistant Manager

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Brunswick's Throwbot Says...CG Matters
« Reply #147 on: September 17, 2007, 10:54:53 AM »
quote:
Yawn....same old crap....it gets spelled out and the Kool Aid drinkers won't accept it. They continue to deny what is plainly on video.


Jabroni: The video did clearly show what you're calling 'same old crap'. You're big on credibility, and Billy Yinger (who is not a Lane#1 guy) has pointed the same thing out several times. So what did you see that was different?
--------------------
"Sometimes, the best move is the one we don't make"