Post by: smer on April 04, 2009, 07:03:13 AM
This may not be the right forum for this question, but it is the forum where the origional question about lane 1 and Storm on the pba started, thus the post here
Post by: T Brockette on April 04, 2009, 03:15:48 PM
--------------------
Tracy
Bowlingchat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Post by: jls on April 04, 2009, 03:29:35 PM
quote:
I read with great interest the discussion of why you do not see anybody throw lane 1 stuff on the pba. Except for the usual "lane 1 just sucks" posts,there were alot of good points on both sides. The main point that seemed to come out the most was that Storm "matches up" with the oil patterns this year and Lane 1 does not. So, a question? Is there anyone who throws Storm equipment only and is not matching up? Not to pick on Jeff Carter{who is a great bowler and seems to be a really nice guy} but he has struggled this year using only Storm stuff{won using a plastic Ebonite}. I do not know what every pro throws on tour. But I see Barnes[Columbia], WRW[Morich],Tommy Jones[Ebonite], Parker Bohn, Rash[both Brunswick]around the top of the points list. When Mallot was on tv every week it was the Cell that was awsome.I have not seen him in a couple of weeks now[and do not know where he has finished in last few tourn], so is the Cell now no good. If you throw only Storm and still bowl bad, are you a really bad bowler. So is it the ball or the bowler. Does throwing Storm make Wes Mallot a great bowler, or is Wes Mallot a great bowler who just happens to throw Storm equipement[for whatever reason]?
This may not be the right forum for this question, but it is the forum where the origional question about lane 1 and Storm on the pba started, thus the post here
sir
Tiger is a great golfer, but he chooses to play Nike!!! Was he a great golfer when he played Titleist? yes!!!
So maybe it's a little thing called MONEY.
Maybe Lane One can not afford to pay out the big bucks like an Ebonite or Storm.
And last time I checked, the lanes on the PBA tour, were not wide enough to handle some Lane One balls. OOPS
Sorry Roy, the devil made me say that last line....
Now I will be good for the rest of the weekend....
--------------------
jls ..... never fear Obama is here
Post by: Roy Munson on April 04, 2009, 03:44:25 PM
--------------------
Roy Munson: "Morning! I hope you don't mind, I got up a little early. So I took the liberty of milking your cow for you. Yeah, it took a little while to get her warmed up. She sure is a stubborn one. Then pow, all at once."
Mr. Boorg: "We don't have a cow. We have a bull."
***** Looking for Pearl Cherry C/2 *****
Post by: AK47 on April 04, 2009, 04:03:58 PM
However, when my timing is off... I've made the EU &Pink Raspberry look bad, both balls i have 300's with. I leave corners can't throw a single Hambone!
That's why before i make changes to a ball that's not working, i make sure that it's not me. Unfortunately, it's always ME that makes the balls look bad when it comes to the 40+ Buzzsaws that i own. Unfortunately, i've seen alot of bowlers who can't see that it's them.
Have you ever seen an 70-80 year old man with a HIGH PERFORMANCE ball, lol! I bet you didn't want to go buy that ball, cause he makes look bad
(I love old people)My point is i've seen more than one WHITE DOTS thrown by high rev players that have won many pots! So i do believe that if WES, WRW, BARNES where throwing Lane #1 they would continue to be in the winners circle. Bowlers makes Balls look good!
--------------------
CHAINSAW = MONEY
DYNAMO
AGENT ORANGE
NEBULA
CHAINSAW BB/R (pin near track)
STARBURST XXXL
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on April 04, 2009, 04:17:42 PM
quote:
If you throw only Storm and still bowl bad, are you a really bad bowler.
It's not possible to throw only Storm and bowl bad.
--------------------
"When in doubt, pull out." - ESPN's Rob Stone
Post by: smer on April 04, 2009, 07:51:29 PM
I kinda agree about the advertizing that lane 1 does. But is it any different than columbia remaking the same ball, slapping a new name on it and saying its the brand new big hooker on the block. Or any company saying "we took the old faithfull core, added a different density flip block to make it longer, which means a higher transfer of energy at the pin deck, resulting in better pin carry". They just do not say 20% better carry , but they suggest that their ball will carry better, thus higher ave. I do not see anyone going ape sh!t over that type of advertising, even though the difference in the core is so small it's laughable. Please do not think I am a Lane 1 fanatic. I have a combination of Ebonite Lane 1 and Storm equipment and each has it's place
Post by: Saw Mill on April 04, 2009, 10:58:36 PM
Richie told him he would like to see him, a great bowler, using the what many consider the greatest equipment. WR responded with, "what would they (Lane 1) be able to offer him, as if free equipment and other benefits were not enough. Richie stated that while their monetary offer could not match other companies, the money he believe WR would bank in winnings would be more than with others.
I got a chance to speak with the agent, and I told him I was sad, as I would love to see what WR, whom I believed was one of the greatest bowlers, could do with what I believe to be the greatest equipment. He replied with the comment that money has alot to do with it, to which I replied, "you mean greed."
So you see, he could have tried their offer, to at least see what their equipment would do for him, BUT it was MORE about what Lane 1 could PAY him. He NEVER even found out if they would have matched up better than anyone else, so while there may be "some" pros who actually do that, more often than not it comes down to the number of zeros on a check.
Dave
--------------------
Romans 1:15&16 "So much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation, to everyone that believeth to the Jew first, and also to Greek!
F.O.S. Members, Our Assignment Should We Choose To Accept It, Polish and Sharpen Up Our Saws Pins Have Been Spotted, and We Are To Saw 'Em Up!!
Bomb Squad Certified and Licensed Diamond Cutter
Post by: Buzzhead on April 05, 2009, 01:23:09 AM
that Lane #1's claims are for the typical house hack, 180-190 average bowler. Not saying the balls are not for pros to use but the guys that are going to see the most out of the "claims are going to be the everyday bowler....
--------------------
FAILURE IS FEEDBACK. AND FEEDBACK IS THE BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS THAT GOT DIGESTED!
Ten pin?????? Where?? I throw a BUZZSAW there is NUTTIN left on the deck...
Proud MEMBER of the FOS!!
Member of the FOS, if there happens to be a 9 pin standing just toss a saw and cut it down~~!
Post by: Buzzhead on April 05, 2009, 01:23:11 AM
that Lane #1's claims are for the typical house hack, 180-190 average bowler. Not saying the balls are not for pros to use but the guys that are going to see the most out of the "claims are going to be the everyday bowler....
--------------------
FAILURE IS FEEDBACK. AND FEEDBACK IS THE BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS THAT GOT DIGESTED!
Ten pin?????? Where?? I throw a BUZZSAW there is NUTTIN left on the deck...
Proud MEMBER of the FOS!!
Member of the FOS, if there happens to be a 9 pin standing just toss a saw and cut it down~~!
Post by: holland1945 on April 05, 2009, 11:38:30 AM
--------------------
*** MoRich, Quantum, Brunswick 15# for sale - http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=231393&ForumID=26&CategoryID=12 ***
Support REAL change and REAL conservative politics in America:
http://www.mises.org - learn
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/ - activism
http://www.breakthematrix.com/ - video
http://www.rationalreview.com/ and http://www.antiwar.com/ - news
Post by: smer on April 05, 2009, 02:17:23 PM
Where did Richie work before he started Lane 1? I know he was a wheel somewhere, can not remember where.
Post by: smer on April 05, 2009, 02:17:52 PM
Where did Richie work before he started Lane 1? I know he was a wheel somewhere, can not remember where.
Post by: holland1945 on April 05, 2009, 02:44:08 PM
--------------------
*** MoRich, Quantum, Brunswick 15# for sale - http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=231393&ForumID=26&CategoryID=12 ***
Support REAL change and REAL conservative politics in America:
http://www.mises.org - learn
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/ - activism
http://www.breakthematrix.com/ - video
http://www.rationalreview.com/ and http://www.antiwar.com/ - news
Post by: rcorbitt on April 05, 2009, 03:06:53 PM
There's been a ton of discussion lately about how Lane #1 equipment doesn't match up to the pros. Common sense tells us this is not true. How many thousands of bowlers (league, amateur, pro, etc ...) use Lane #1 equipment? Is it possible that the 100+ or so guys competing at the national level ALL have different releases, rev rates, etc ... ? Not likely.
It all comes down to money. Larger companies like Brunswick and Ebonite produce less expensive equipment. Lane #1's products cost more. So during this week's US Open Mike Scroggins drilled 12 balls. I'm guessing the average price for Lane #1 equipment for pros is about $125 per ball or $1500 plus drilling. So he would have spent about $2000 for one tournament. When you include food, lodging, transportation, and expenses, Scroggins would have to make it to the top 15 to break even. How many guys make the top 24 every week?
Also, the other manufacturers have ball reps on tour authorized to give away equipment. My guess is Scroggins probably paid for five or six of the 12 balls he drilled.
The idea that pros match up to the equipment is just marketing. Remember the Plastic Ball tourney a few weeks ago? Scores were in the stratosphere with pancake blocks in polyester balls. Everybody threw the same ball with the same core.
It's all about the money! If Brunswick is guaranteeing you a paycheck every week, you throw Brunswick equipment.
Finally, I find it funny that so many people hate Lane #1 equipment and their advertising. They are a small company making a quality product. If you don't like it, don't buy any. Moreover, if Lane #1 is ignoring the PBA in favor of selling a ball to the 2.6 million league bowlers in the US, maybe they know their business better than we do. Outback Steakhouse doesn't have a 99¢ menu, but I don't hear anyone protesting.
Of course, you just can't argue with the Philistines ...
Post by: holland1945 on April 05, 2009, 03:12:04 PM
--------------------
*** MoRich, Quantum, Brunswick 15# for sale - http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=231393&ForumID=26&CategoryID=12 ***
Support REAL change and REAL conservative politics in America:
http://www.mises.org - learn
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/ - activism
http://www.breakthematrix.com/ - video
http://www.rationalreview.com/ and http://www.antiwar.com/ - news
Post by: Steven on April 05, 2009, 03:41:33 PM
quote:
But MoRich is a small company too. And they can apparently afford to pay pros and sell their balls closer to mainstream prices. Why can't Lane #1 figure this out and do the same?
THB: Nice logic. If it's a small company, they must have the same revenue/cost models, and more important, put the same economic value on signing 'top 10%' exempt players.
Brilliant -- simply brilliant.
If you ever get back to school and attempt to take an upper level Economics class, pass on the above hypothesis to your professor for extra credit and see where it gets you. (Hint: Be careful -- it might be a one-way ticket to an "F".)
Post by: Steven on April 05, 2009, 06:21:25 PM
quote:
Free agents are just that, free agents. They can choose wahtever they want to throw. So, they throw what they think they can win with. Period.
So you're certain that any exempt pro can get Lane#1 equipment for free? Or even at a significantly reduced price? Remember, you need 8-12 at a given stop for different setup combinations. Is there a Lane#1 rep at each stop to assist with layouts for what the players are seeing? Remember, it's not just the balls but the technical consulting to get the right combinations.
Wow, if you have this, that's good information. Where do you get this kind of input?
Post by: holland1945 on April 05, 2009, 07:04:52 PM
quote:quote:
But MoRich is a small company too. And they can apparently afford to pay pros and sell their balls closer to mainstream prices. Why can't Lane #1 figure this out and do the same?
THB: Nice logic. If it's a small company, they must have the same revenue/cost models, and more important, put the same economic value on signing 'top 10%' exempt players.
Brilliant -- simply brilliant.
If Lane #1's costs are significantly higher than MoRich's, then they are not well run, period. As for the pro's, every major company out there sees this as a good ROI so I don't know why Lane #1 would think differently. And if they do, and are not more successful than those who with which they disagree, then they are wrong.
--------------------
*** MoRich, Quantum, Brunswick 15# for sale - http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=231393&ForumID=26&CategoryID=12 ***
Support REAL change and REAL conservative politics in America:
http://www.mises.org - learn
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/ - activism
http://www.breakthematrix.com/ - video
http://www.rationalreview.com/ and http://www.antiwar.com/ - news
Post by: BeansProShop on April 05, 2009, 07:09:19 PM
Sometimes you need to gamble and sometimes you don't.
How many balls do you think Mo sold because WRW made TV with it?????????
How many sales did he lose because WRW plaqued an 8-10 to lose the title on TV????
There has been alot of debate as to why the smaller companies are not on TV. There has also been alot of debate as to how many sales are actually generated by TV exposure.
Don't we all remember the 80's and 90's Ball company comercials that were always on TV on Sat afternoons???
If they generated sales, why did they all stop advertising??
It's over $100,000 just to register the product and then another $15,000 for TV rights if they make a show. How many balls do you have to sell just to break even there???
Is it worth it???
Don't you think Richie can just offer $25,000 to throw the Dynamo on TV and hope it wins? And if it does....Does it really sell more balls???
I can tell you this...
I am a Lane#1 staff guy who owns a successful shop but I do not "PUSH" Lane#1 on my customers. I do in fact offer a little more detailed descriptions of the Lane#1 stuff. Wes Malott was Player of the Year this year making 8 shows and throwing Roto Grip. I have not sold ANY Cells or Rogue Cells because he was on TV with them. I actually sell more Brunswick than I do Roto Grip and I hate the inconsisitent quality of Big B right now.
I am starting to ramble on here but I just don't really seem to understand the reasoning.
WRW wins without Storm products.
Duke won before Storm
PDW won before Storm
Barnes has never won with Storm
Tommy Jones and Couch have won 20+ without Storm
It just so happens that the couple top players on tour this year are Storm guys. If WRW,Malott,Barnes,Duke,Rhino,PA,Scroggins,PDW and Tommy Jones were all on Lane#1 staff. The same amount of titles would have been won by them the last few years.
Lane#1 has never been accepted by the main stream but hopefully we can change that in the future.
Lane#1 balls are no more expensive than any other balls on the market. That is way in the past and shops and bowlers around the country need to be educated to that.
Lane#1 will be here for a long,long time with or without TV exposure and with or without over the top marketing. LIVE WITH IT!!!!
beans
--------------------
www.beansproshop.com
--------------------
Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
PBA Member and Lane#1 National Sales Manager and Lane#1 Ball Drilling Expert
Check out current eBay auctions at:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=beanssecretsauce Official Pro Shop of "ALL" F.O.S. Members!!!
Post by: Dan Belcher on April 05, 2009, 07:24:15 PM
quote:Just for the record, Carter probably isn't a good example. If you read his blog, his physical game was really off for the first half of the season. He missed all of last year with a nasty finger injury and got into some bad habits. He actually had a pretty solid second half of the year beyond his win in the plastic ball tournament once he made some changes to his delivery.
Not to pick on Jeff Carter{who is a great bowler and seems to be a really nice guy} but he has struggled this year using only Storm stuff{won using a plastic Ebonite}.
Post by: rcorbitt on April 05, 2009, 08:17:22 PM
Post by: smer on April 05, 2009, 09:53:09 PM
Post by: bowlerdawg on April 05, 2009, 10:00:12 PM
the pro's are dumbaZzes for not rolling the best equiptment in the game.[PERIOD]
--------------------
I'm your huckleberry
Post by: Steven on April 05, 2009, 10:38:27 PM
quote:
If Lane #1's costs are significantly higher than MoRich's, then they are not well run, period.
Who says they are? Do you have insights to the Lane#1 balance sheet the way you did to their internal marketing strategy?
The fact that they're still independent and appear to be growing while many others have gone by the wayside says something about the way the company is run. There is no fiction in this observation. quote:
As for the pro's, every major company out there sees this as a good ROI so I don't know why Lane #1 would think differently.
As Beans pointed out, Faball found out what a great ROI the PBA was. In tougher economic times, it wouldn't be surprising to see at least a few of the ball companies question the investment. Time will tell.
Post by: holland1945 on April 05, 2009, 10:50:33 PM
quote:
Who says they are?
You did by suggesting one of the reasons they don't price things lower or sponsor a touring pro is because their costs might be higher.
quote:
The fact that they're still independent and appear to be growing
So now I have no possible way of knowing their marketing strategy or balance sheet, but you're an expert on their market share?
quote:
As Beans pointed out, Faball found out what a great ROI the PBA was. In tougher economic times, it wouldn't be surprising to see at least a few of the ball companies question the investment. Time will tell.
Faball doesn't exist anymore. So you could say that companies who don't sponsor touring professionals eventually fall by the wayside while ones that do stick around.
--------------------
*** MoRich, Quantum, Brunswick 15# for sale - http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=231393&ForumID=26&CategoryID=12 ***
Support REAL change and REAL conservative politics in America:
http://www.mises.org - learn
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/ - activism
http://www.breakthematrix.com/ - video
http://www.rationalreview.com/ and http://www.antiwar.com/ - news
Post by: JessN16 on April 06, 2009, 01:06:49 AM
quote:
So, what are the free agents using and why? If someone isn't committed to a certain company and struggling to make it on tour, are they just going to the bigger companies because the big companies have ball reps out there to help the bowlers out. I always find it interesting that you see the storm/RG rep standing right behing the lanes when anyone throwing Storm/RG is on tv. Isn't that coaching, and I thought coaching was not allowed. I remember Duke and Shafer getting into it about that several years ago during match play. But back to the main point: if any pro can get any ball for only the drilling cost, I find it hard to believe that someone has not tried Lane 1, Lane Masters, Visionary,etc and done well with them for at least one or two weeks.
I can answer that one for you -- neither LaneMasters nor Visionary (nor Motiv nor Kinetic) are PBA-registered for the big tour. LaneMasters might still be "grassroots-registered" but I'm not sure. I think if LaneMasters was registered you'd see Rhino Page throwing a lot of it, as he used to before he became exempt.
Besides the matchup issues, someone else made a very salient point about Lane #1 not having a tour rep structure. Given that 900Global/AMF has been virtually invisible this year (two shows, I think?) I'd say that's probably their problem, too, especially since their coverstocks have gotten very skid/flippy, which seems to be the trend this year.
MoRich has WRW. He doesn't need a tour rep, never has. You carry four balls and try to play straight all the time, you don't need much of a tour rep.
I can say this about the matchup issue: I rolled a tournament this week that demanded equipment that was long and angular. For the first time in awhile, I ran into a matchup problem with my Lane #1 arsenal. I managed to work it out but I took some damage before I made some big changes in my release. I pretty much had to ram some square pegs into round holes. I wouldn't dismiss the matchup argument out of hand, but the fact that Storm/Ebonite/Brunswick have vastly superior support structures behind their products at the tour level surely plays a major part.
Jess
Post by: Buddy Christ on April 06, 2009, 01:11:08 AM
quote:
I can answer that one for you -- neither LaneMasters nor Visionary (nor Motiv nor Kinetic) are PBA-registered for the big tour. LaneMasters might still be "grassroots-registered" but I'm not sure. I think if LaneMasters was registered you'd see Rhino Page throwing a lot of it, as he used to before he became exempt.
Jess
Jess,
Didn't Michael Haugen Jr. use Visionary for a while 'back in the day'?
--------------------
KILLWHITNEYDEAD
Viva La Marijuana!
Post by: JessN16 on April 06, 2009, 01:23:48 AM
quote:quote:
I can answer that one for you -- neither LaneMasters nor Visionary (nor Motiv nor Kinetic) are PBA-registered for the big tour. LaneMasters might still be "grassroots-registered" but I'm not sure. I think if LaneMasters was registered you'd see Rhino Page throwing a lot of it, as he used to before he became exempt.
Jess
Jess,
Didn't Michael Haugen Jr. use Visionary for a while 'back in the day'?
--------------------
KILLWHITNEYDEAD
Viva La Marijuana!
I'm told he did. I never saw him during that time, but it probably happened. The thing is companies have to re-up every year if they want to remain registered (and the cost of doing so is wacky high).
Jess
Post by: Buddy Christ on April 06, 2009, 01:27:53 AM