Post by: Gixer on March 30, 2009, 07:34:44 AM
Post by: bowlerdawg on March 30, 2009, 03:55:54 PM
if you make the show using one of the " larger " mfg' they give you XXXX amount of dollars.
the " larger " companies offer big bucks to their staffers
so imo, it boils down to dollars, and that's why you haven't seen any L1 ball on tv recently
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I'm your huckleberry
Post by: Cobalt Bomb on March 30, 2009, 04:00:33 PM
Post by: bowlerdawg on March 30, 2009, 04:29:19 PM
i stand corrected
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I'm your huckleberry
Post by: JessN16 on March 30, 2009, 04:36:04 PM
I'm also surprised I haven't seen an AMF/900Global ball on the show this year. Haugen has been hurt but I figured someone else would have picked up the slack.
Jess
Post by: Steven on March 30, 2009, 05:17:27 PM
quote:
Despite the many howling of the lane one fateful, the fact of the matter is the large majority of the PBA's finest, don't match up with their equipment.
Inverted is making a reach here, and he's ignoring some of the realities of how the better PBA players, starting at the regional level, choose their equipment.
The bigger companies have local reps who know the landscape of the up and coming bowlers. Many of those bowlers are offered amateur staff contracts to use and showcase that manufacturers equipment.
If a bowler goes many years getting used to a few different lines through contracts, he/she will tend to continue using those lines. There isn't any magic to this -- we're all creatures of habit and go with what's familiar.
I suspect there is much more of the above than free agents actually trying Lane#1 and deciding they 'don't match up'.
Post by: T-GOD on March 30, 2009, 07:28:21 PM
Post by: Steven on March 31, 2009, 10:16:47 AM
quote:
My point being, if they did what they claimed every bowler on tour would use them.
Again, you're ignoring the realities of how PBA caliber players acquire equipment. If you're offered a ball contract from one of the majors, you're usually going to take it. Why are you going to turn down a minimum 8-10 free balls per year (plus lots of free 'hands on' tech support from a rep) just to prove you've tried all brands available? That's not reasonable.
quote:
Yes, there has been some success with L#1 at the regional levels, but not on the pro tour. The last time I saw an L#! ball used on tour during the finals, it looked and reacted like sht.
How many players besides Walter Ray use Morich on tour? According to your overall logic, other players should be flocking to Morich because he's tearing up the tour using their equipment. It hasn't happened. Why is that?
If Walter didn't sign with Morich, you could make the same argument about their equipment that you're making about Lane#1. I suspect that you'd still see Walter Ray or Norm Duke on TV if they were paid to throw a Dynamo.
Post by: JessN16 on March 31, 2009, 11:15:52 AM
Jess
Post by: jbruno6 on March 31, 2009, 11:37:21 AM
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Post by: JessN16 on March 31, 2009, 11:56:36 AM
quote:
Jess, I saw Jurek throwing Morich and Rotogrip last thurs in LI. He was throwing a Neptune. Is he a free agent now?
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I don't know the specifics of their contracts. I just know he's been throwing MoRich virtually every time he's made a show recently.
Jess
Post by: Uncle Crusty on March 31, 2009, 11:57:11 AM
As has been mentioned earlier, I'm sure if a free agent whacked 'em all week with a Lane#1 ball and made the show on Sunday, Richie would throw a nice chunk of change their way (comparable to bonuses paid to free agents by big-name companies) to wear the logo and throw the Saw. But since it happens so rarely (Loschetter and Haugen being the only two guys in the last decade that I can remember throwing Lane#1 on the tube), the only logical explanation is that no one on Tour matches up with Lane#1's equipment.
And using lane conditions to justify the absence of Lane#1 on TV is nothing more than an excuse. Lane conditions have changed drastically over the last decade on Tour. House shots, very tight sport patterns, the named patterns of last year and before, the newly revamped named patterns, etc. These guys have bowled on anything and everything in the last 10 years out there, and yet, no one seems to *ever* match up with Lane#1.
That being said, the only explanation is the equipment can't live up to the massive hype, at least not on bowling's biggest stage. These guys do this for a living. It's how they support their families and make ends meet. So rest assured that if Lane#1 equipment gave them an edge on the lanes and upped their odds of winning, they'd be throwing it. End of story.
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"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."
-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann
Edited on 3/31/2009 12:06 PM
Post by: Marc822 on March 31, 2009, 12:06:17 PM
quote:
It doesn't help that this company tends to lean towards having the reputation of a more heavy-rolling roll characteristic. Storm/Roto has dominated TV all year and is considered, by and large, to be more angular at the back and cleaner through the fronts. Brunswick and MoRich's exposure has been down, too, for that same reason.
I'm also surprised I haven't seen an AMF/900Global ball on the show this year. Haugen has been hurt but I figured someone else would have picked up the slack.
Jess
Chris Loshetter (dont know how to spell it) threw the Break S75 on tv and Jaros made the show at the World Championsip
Post by: Steven on March 31, 2009, 12:27:05 PM
quote:
What you're missing here is that I'm agreeing with when it comes to someone who has a contract with a ball maufacture. The value of the contract is probably worth more than the actual title itself when they win. so, if a bowler is under contract with Morich, then he's going to throw Morich, no question.
Inverted: I'm thinking more in terms of the Regional/Amateur contracts I see. They don't include any real compensation -- just equipment. I suspect there are lots of them around for the better players. For instance, look at Mason Sherman in the West Region. He had a ball contract with Hammer, but recently changed over to Roto Grip. I'm guessing he gets roughly 8 balls a year, plus first hand access to company reps. He has a shot a making it to the next level. So why would he take the time (and money) to experiment outside the major manufacturers who are happy to provide him equipment?
You didn't answer my question regarding Morich. WRW is having lots of success with their equipment. According to your logic, the other free agents should be taking notice and running to Morich. Why hasn't that happened?
Post by: JessN16 on March 31, 2009, 12:53:24 PM
quote:
And using lane conditions to justify the absence of Lane#1 on TV is nothing more than an excuse. Lane conditions have changed drastically over the last decade on Tour. House shots, very tight sport patterns, the named patterns of last year and before, the newly revamped named patterns, etc. These guys have bowled on anything and everything in the last 10 years out there, and yet, no one seems to *ever* match up with Lane#1.
Well, if it's an excuse, it's one that everyone besides Storm/Roto is making this year. That company has dominated telecasts.
Last year and prior, when balls that reacted more like Brunswick (for lack of a better way to explain it) were the better matchup, there were more free agents throwing MoRich, Brunswick and then you had Loschetter making two shows with Lane #1. So it obviously worked for him if it got him to the show.
I'll give you that Storm/Roto is a better matchup for people this year, because the evidence bears that out.
I think I've proved sufficiently that I'm not an apologist for any single company, both through my own insistence on throwing multiple companies' stuff and my willingness to take the company to task when it made something I couldn't use, so I have no problem saying the following: Anyone who says "Lane #1 is junk" and ascribing it to the entire product line is either stirring or is confusing their own matchup issues with actual quality. For various reasons, this company is a lightning rod for criticism but that doesn't make haters right.
Jess
Post by: Steven on March 31, 2009, 12:53:44 PM
Again, if you look at the better players who have the possible potential for the exempt tour, they're getting free equipment from the major companies starting back at the regional level. They all have their buddies who have similar deals with companies, and they all hang out, share notes, and make contacts for their next possible contract moves. In other words, it's a small world that perpetuates itself over-and-over again.
Think about it logically. There isn't much of an incentive to go through the trouble of experimenting with smaller companies where you're guaranteed to have thousands out of pocket, and no local rep to help you out with setup according to your specific needs. Bowlers are notoriously cheap, and they're going to go the path of least resistance -- guaranteed. Especially when what they have is pretty good.
Post by: Uncle Crusty on March 31, 2009, 01:13:09 PM
quote:
Well, if it's an excuse, it's one that everyone besides Storm/Roto is making this year. That company has dominated telecasts.
Last year and prior, when balls that reacted more like Brunswick (for lack of a better way to explain it) were the better matchup, there were more free agents throwing MoRich, Brunswick and then you had Loschetter making two shows with Lane #1. So it obviously worked for him if it got him to the show.
I'll give you that Storm/Roto is a better matchup for people this year, because the evidence bears that out.
I think I've proved sufficiently that I'm not an apologist for any single company, both through my own insistence on throwing multiple companies' stuff and my willingness to take the company to task when it made something I couldn't use, so I have no problem saying the following: Anyone who says "Lane #1 is junk" and ascribing it to the entire product line is either stirring or is confusing their own matchup issues with actual quality. For various reasons, this company is a lightning rod for criticism but that doesn't make haters right.
Jess
Which is why I talked about matchups over the past decade. Every year, especially when the patterns get tweaked, it seems one company, or perhaps more accurately, one characteristic type of ball roll, has the nut on Tour. This has been the case forever.
But my point is, if no one has ever had the nut with Lane#1, doesn't it stand to reason that the equipment is just not as versatile as it needs to be for people to thrive on Tour with it? I mean, Brunswick poured their covers forever, and back in the late 90's and early 2000's, WRW and PB3 won about 18 zillion titles with Brunswick, and that's not even counting some of the other guys who mopped up with Big B. Since you compare Lane#1's roll with that of Brunswick and MoRich (and rightly so), wouldn't you think Lane#1 could have earned a few titles in an era where that type of ball reaction was king? The answer is no.
And using the Loschetter/Haugen argument (saying those guys *did* make the show with Lane#1, although they went on to lose on TV) doesn't definitively prove that Lane#1 could thrive on Tour. For instance, I remember WRW making several shows in his pre-Brunswick days throwing some red Wilson-brand ball. He may have even won on TV with one of those clunkers, but that doesn't mean Wilson equipment should be in everyone's hands.
Personally, I think the major problem with Lane#1 is versatility (or a lack thereof). A lot of people I know who throw Lane#1 (and this is stright from the horse's mouth, so to speak) say that nearly all of their pieces roll similarly. Too similarly. You need to generate different looks on Tour, and Lane#1 just can't provide that. Perhaps it's the lack of core variety, perhaps it's a lack of coverstock variation, perhaps it's a combination of the two, but either way you slice it, one of the big knocks on Lane#1 is everything they have rolls basically the same way. And having 20 balls in the bag that all do the same thing doesn't add up to a paycheck at the end of the week when you're duking it out with the best in the world.
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"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."
-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann
Post by: JessN16 on March 31, 2009, 01:30:27 PM
Remember that for a lot of those years, Lane #1 wasn't product-registered, either.
I see a similar discussion going on right now about Elite now that Robert Smith dropped them (and they will apparently drop their registration at year's end). Some people are talking about Elite being "junk." If Elite is junk, so is Brunswick, because that's pretty much what those balls are. Elite is way overpriced, but is not junk.
The versatility argument is fair. In the Brunswick days, you had two basic looks, the roll-heavy look from the Diamond cores and the more angular look from the Bomb cores.
I think the versatility is greater now that they've moved to 900Global for coverstocks, based on what I've seen from what I've drilled recently. They now have six different cores in production if the XP is still being made. So I expect that to get better.
Jess
Post by: Steven on March 31, 2009, 01:38:27 PM
quote:
Personally, I think the major problem with Lane#1 is versatility (or a lack thereof). A lot of people I know who throw Lane#1 (and this is stright from the horse's mouth, so to speak) say that nearly all of their pieces roll similarly. Too similarly.
Crusty: That says more about the 'people you know' who throw Lane#1 than about the equipment itself.
For instance, anyone who suggests that Carbide Plus (Buzzsaw/C2 core) with a higher pin drill reacts similarly to a Solid Uranium with a lower pin drill really needs lessons or eye glasses. There are many other L#1 ball combinations that produce vastly different reaction combinations that could be listed.
It's myths like what you stated that keep old wives tales alive.
Post by: Uncle Crusty on March 31, 2009, 01:53:35 PM
quote:
It's myths like what you stated that keep old wives tales alive.
I know a variety of bowlers who throw Lane#1, varying anywhere from house mouses to multi-time state champs. And the common denominator between most of them is the observation that most Lane#1 stuff rolls alike. That's not a myth, bro, that's their observation. If they never threw the equipment, never tried different pills, never varied surfaces or layouts and still said everything rolled the same, then you'd have yourself a myth. But some of the guys I reference are people who have a vast knowledge of different layouts and understand the fundamentals of ball reaction and know how to shape ball reaction to suit their needs, and they still reached the same conclusion. So that, for them at least, is fact, not myth.
It's well beyond obvious that you match up well with Lane#1, and there's nothing better than finding a brand that suits your game perfectly. But you just cannot expect everyone to match up by playing with layouts and surfaces, because some people just don't match up with a company, period. And my whole point is that no one on Tour matches up to the look Lane#1 offers (and the look you love), because if they did, they'd be throwing Saws.
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"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."
-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann
Post by: Steven on March 31, 2009, 02:21:29 PM
quote:
I know a variety of bowlers who throw Lane#1, varying anywhere from house mouses to multi-time state champs. And the common denominator between most of them is the observation that most Lane#1 stuff rolls alike. That's not a myth, bro, that's their observation.
Crusty: Look at this from a logical level. Compare just 2 Lane#1 balls that would likely be used by better bowlers:
Carbide Plus ---> RGMIN=2.515 RGMAX=2.558
Uranium -------> RGMIN=2.450 RGMAX=2.493
From a physics point of view, how are these two balls going to roll the same, assuming the same drill? The RG's are worlds different. My Uranium is early rolling while my Carbide+ has a definite skid/snap reaction (which one would expect from the numbers). Why would anyone experience anything different?
quote:
But you just cannot expect everyone to match up by playing with layouts and surfaces, because some people just don't match up with a company, period. And my whole point is that no one on Tour matches up to the look Lane#1 offers (and the look you love), because if they did, they'd be throwing Saws.
I don't expect everyone would choose a L#1 as their first ball out of the bag. I'm just disturbed by the suggestion that all Lane#1 balls roll the same -- they don't.
The reasons Lane#1 is not used more on the tour has more to do with free or reduced priced major company equipment that better players have available. Even at the proshop level, any operator worth his salt is given 'freebies' by distributors and reps to try out with the hope they'll be pushed to customers. That just doesn't happen as often with the smaller companies.
Post by: Steven on March 31, 2009, 02:38:21 PM
quote:
HOWEVER, at the end of the day, if you need to spend $300 in equipment that SEEMS to work for those winnng titles (or even cashing) vs. getting "free stuff" that's not getting you the desired results, small market or not, you'll spend it.
Inverted: First, the investment isn't $300, it's much more -- probably in the thousands. If you're going to jump into another company playpen (and pay for it), you're going to need many balls, including multiple of the same ball to experiment with different drills/surfaces. That's a major investment for guys even at the highest levels who share rooms/beds at Motel 6 to keep expenses affordable.
Given this, it's reasonable to assume they'll continue to error on the side of experimenting with a line they're using. That's exactly the behavior you see.quote:
Pro's don't pay full price for the equipment and I believe it's around $30 to put holes in them.
Exactly. And that's a lot of incentive to stay with a line they're comfortable with rather than pay full price for what might be a dead end.
quote:
So, by what you're saying, they would rather use free stuff that may or may not work vs. spending a few bucks for a ball that their peers are scoring lights out with? Sure, they are. Let me know when Elvis get's here..
I'm not sure what you're saying above. Of course they would rather use free stuff that's working -- always option#1. However, their peers aren't using Lane#1 (for reasons covered), so I'm not sure it's time to wait around for Elvis to get here.
Post by: buzzaussie299 on March 31, 2009, 02:39:53 PM
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black raspberry saw
emerald saw
cranberry c buzzsaw
enriched uranium stacked
enriched uranium label
pearl uranium
pearl carbide
pearl cherry bomb
solid cobalt bomb
xxxl starburst
h20 buzzsaw
liberator
solid uranium
clear diamond
bullet buzzsaw
tsunami
uranium hrg
blueberry buzzsaw 14lb
supernova solid
enriched uranium cg out
wanted single drill right hand blueberry 15 lb
wanted single drill right hand silver diamond 15lb
Post by: Uncle Crusty on March 31, 2009, 02:41:08 PM
quote:
Crusty: Look at this from a logical level. Compare just 2 Lane#1 balls that would likely be used by better bowlers:
Carbide Plus ---> RGMIN=2.515 RGMAX=2.558
Uranium -------> RGMIN=2.450 RGMAX=2.493
From a physics point of view, how are these two balls going to roll the same, assuming the same drill? The RG's are worlds different. My Uranium is early rolling while my Carbide+ has a definite skid/snap reaction (which one would expect from the numbers). Why would anyone experience anything different?
I don't know what to tell you, Steven. I really don't. I guess I could suggest that numbers don't translate out to the wood for garbage. Maybe I could tell you I know a bunch of habitual liars, which is pretty close to what you seem to want to insinuate. All I know is what I'm told, and *multiple* bowlers with varying styles and different knowledge bases all told me the same thing: that Lane#1 has a very characteristic roll that all the equipment they put out tends to gravitate towards. That is their experience, and for you to sit at your computer, having never seen them bowl or conversed with them, and spew numbers to prove them wrong is self-serving at best.
I'm a nuclear engineer, I understand physics with the best of them, but I also understand that idealized numbers don't always nicely translate to real life. If they did, balls like the Blue Vibe wouldn't have outhooked 90% of balls on the market at the time of their release.
quote:
The reasons Lane#1 is not used more on the tour has more to do with free or reduced priced major company equipment that better players have available. Even at the proshop level, any operator worth his salt is given 'freebies' by distributors and reps to try out with the hope they'll be pushed to customers. That just doesn't happen as often with the smaller companies.
Is the reason Lane#1 is a smaller company due to the fact that demand just isn't as high as other companies? Is it possible that people just don't want to throw Lane#1 because they don't match up, including pros? Is that sensical train of thought even remotely possible?
I'm not asking you to hate on Lane#1 with the rest of the bashers, and I'm not asking you to admit you're throwing "inferior" equipment. But it never hurt anyone to call a spade a spade, and in this case, that would be admitting Lane#1 isn't as popular because a lot of people just haven't found success with it and can't match up with it, yourself excluded.
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"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."
-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann
Edited on 3/31/2009 2:42 PM
Post by: Steven on March 31, 2009, 02:57:05 PM
quote:
Is the reason Lane#1 is a smaller company due to the fact that demand just isn't as high as other companies? Is it possible that people just don't want to throw Lane#1 because they don't match up, including pros? Is that sensical train of thought even remotely possible?
I'm not asking you to hate on Lane#1 with the rest of the bashers, and I'm not asking you to admit you're throwing "inferior" equipment. But it never hurt anyone to call a spade a spade, and in this case, that would be admitting Lane#1 isn't as popular because a lot of people just haven't found success with it and can't match up with it, yourself excluded.
My personal opinion is that Lane#1 isn't popular because:
1) It's harder to get. Until recently proshops had to deal directly with Lane#1 to place orders which is just plain more work for the proshop. My proshop guy still digs at me for having him go to Lane#1 instead of simply taking something off the wall.
2) Traditionally, they have cost more. That's going to scare 90% of your market away from the get-go.
Look, I also throw Columbia and Hammer, so I appreciate there is a lot of good equipment out there. Given this, bowlers are always going to gravitate to what's easiest and cheapest to buy, and unfortunately that's not Lane#1.
Post by: SLunsford on March 31, 2009, 03:51:52 PM
Guys on tour don't use Lane 1 because it's not readily available to them. If there were a ball rep around during practice session talking to the guys (not tied to contracts) offering support,comps, and any other thing that bowlers find useful...some guys would try a ball or two. But the exempt players aren't going to take a chance on a ball that they are not familiar with. Remember, this is their job!! Their living!!
However, when most all the other ball companies do have somebody out there to rep, the balls and knowledge are more accessible...hence people will try things in practice.
Chris Schlemmer(sp?) from Storm (also overlooks Roto-Grip) is the most visible rep on tour. That's why you see more and more guys throwing their stuff. Plus his knowledge is unbelievable and the guys on tour know this.
As for Morich....All their eggs are in Walter. No room for another big contract. This is identical to Columbia with Barnes. Ken Abner does throw Morich on contract. Jack Jurek is very comfortable with some of their equipment, but will throw what he feels will give him the best chance.
Whoever said(previous poster) that the players will use whatever for the endorsements or tv money - this is completely wrong. The endorsements aren't good enough to risk a chance at winning a title. Awhile ago, the endorsements were equivalent to the show money. The year Walter made $400k on tour, there is the possibility he matched that in endorsements. Those days are gone. People use to wear the old Dick Weber wrist braces and take the metal plate out...there was huge incentives to wear it on tv. Plenty more...I can go on and on.
Post by: Steven on March 31, 2009, 04:16:55 PM
If you've grown up in the bowling world using Ebonite, Storm, Brunswick (and their umbrella companies), you're getting their equipment for free and/or at a reduced cost, and you have and on-site rep to help you lay the equipment out, that's the path you're going to continue down. You can talk about an idealistic world where players change companies at a whim, but all bets are off when a change realistically means thousands of dollars out of your own pocket, with little or no rep support. And that's what a decision to a smaller company like Lane#1 can mean.
Edited on 3/31/2009 5:08 PM
Post by: holland1945 on March 31, 2009, 07:53:14 PM
quote:quote:
Crusty: Look at this from a logical level. Compare just 2 Lane#1 balls that would likely be used by better bowlers:
Carbide Plus ---> RGMIN=2.515 RGMAX=2.558
Uranium -------> RGMIN=2.450 RGMAX=2.493
From a physics point of view, how are these two balls going to roll the same, assuming the same drill? The RG's are worlds different. My Uranium is early rolling while my Carbide+ has a definite skid/snap reaction (which one would expect from the numbers). Why would anyone experience anything different?
I don't know what to tell you, Steven. I really don't. I guess I could suggest that numbers don't translate out to the wood for garbage. Maybe I could tell you I know a bunch of habitual liars, which is pretty close to what you seem to want to insinuate. All I know is what I'm told, and *multiple* bowlers with varying styles and different knowledge bases all told me the same thing: that Lane#1 has a very characteristic roll that all the equipment they put out tends to gravitate towards. That is their experience, and for you to sit at your computer, having never seen them bowl or conversed with them, and spew numbers to prove them wrong is self-serving at best.
I'm a nuclear engineer, I understand physics with the best of them, but I also understand that idealized numbers don't always nicely translate to real life. If they did, balls like the Blue Vibe wouldn't have outhooked 90% of balls on the market at the time of their release.quote:
The reasons Lane#1 is not used more on the tour has more to do with free or reduced priced major company equipment that better players have available. Even at the proshop level, any operator worth his salt is given 'freebies' by distributors and reps to try out with the hope they'll be pushed to customers. That just doesn't happen as often with the smaller companies.
Is the reason Lane#1 is a smaller company due to the fact that demand just isn't as high as other companies? Is it possible that people just don't want to throw Lane#1 because they don't match up, including pros? Is that sensical train of thought even remotely possible?
I'm not asking you to hate on Lane#1 with the rest of the bashers, and I'm not asking you to admit you're throwing "inferior" equipment. But it never hurt anyone to call a spade a spade, and in this case, that would be admitting Lane#1 isn't as popular because a lot of people just haven't found success with it and can't match up with it, yourself excluded.
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."
-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann
Edited on 3/31/2009 2:42 PM
Dude, haven't you realized yet? No matter what Steven says or how "objective" he tries to be perceived, he's a HUGE Lane #1 homer. You're arguing with a fanboy, this is like Nintendo vs. Sega in the 90's, you will never get him to concede a point that even remotely shines a less-than-positive light on HIS company obsession. The best I have ever seen him do is say "well, bomb cores don't match up with my game".
This has been one of the most reasonable and thought-out discussions from the anti-Lane #1 side (not saying they're bad, but that it's something they're doing or not doing that is causing their lack of success) and they keep running behind their "small company" status as a defense for everything. "No, it can't be that there's more to bowling than RG numbers and transference of energy from the core to the pins! It's the fact that we don't comp balls to pros!"
Loeschetter (sp?) was on TV with an Enriched Uranium I remember, and it looked like absolute crap. That's a shame because it's a good ball. Did he, and other pros, shy away from the brand because of that (apparently there's been a few telecasts I haven't seen with Lane #1 equipment)? Doubtful. It is as many are saying on this thread...pros on PBA conditions do not match up with Lane #1 cores, period. Lane #1 makes Brunswick stuff look skid/snap by comparison, and Brunswick is (in general) much rollier than other companies. And the bottom line is that they really do have only 1 core with some variations...it has a characteristic roll because the shape is the same regardless of the RG. The RG differences in different balls will make them roll less or more but the look is the same. Bomb vs. diamond may effect strength and angularity, but the roll is still the same. On the other hand, there's a WORLD of difference between how a BVP Rampage and an Original Inferno roll (just as one example). Different core shape, different RG, different coverstock, but for similar conditions and situations. And in the case of MoRich, their core is so adjustable through drilling, you can make 1 ball do about 6 significantly different things. The symmetrical cored Lane #1 balls do not allow that and the "asymmetrical" version was a joke, almost no asymmetry, and I'm guessing that's why there's no ball in production with it anymore.
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Post by: Steven on April 01, 2009, 09:58:49 AM
quote:
Dude, haven't you realized yet? No matter what Steven says or how "objective" he tries to be perceived, he's a HUGE Lane #1 homer. You're arguing with a fanboy, this is like Nintendo vs. Sega in the 90's, you will never get him to concede a point that even remotely shines a less-than-positive light on HIS company obsession. The best I have ever seen him do is say "well, bomb cores don't match up with my game".
Holland/THB: Every time you get a virtual spanking for your trolling (not just me, but others), you reply with a boo-hoo response like that above. Grow some skin and man up. Better yet, strive to be a real contributor. Ballreviews is not the ideal place to hone your pure fiction skills.
quote:
I'd like to know where you get the "thousand of dollars" figure..
If I'm a pro and want to try a new ball, I don't buy a dozen of them, I buy one and see how it's working for me. If it doesn't work, then you go back to what you were using. End of story.
Inverted: True, you're probably going to try one to start. Not a big initial outlay. But if you like it, that where the cash meter starts. You could very well end up buying a dozen if you decide to make the switch. That's about $2,000 out of the gate, and a lot of money for a guy just trying to make expenses and stay on tour.
IEQ's response above outlines it well.
Post by: Jeffrevs on April 01, 2009, 10:47:16 AM
You can discuss this with ANY smaller company and get the same results....Lane1 just so happens to have a cult following
And, NO, I'm not a Lane1 basher...just pointing out the obvious.
p.s. I've never seen so much converstation about a ball company than Lane1. You bring their stuff up and BOOM....the thread goes nuts!
--------------------
Jeff
The Revless Wonder and King Douchebag!
Post by: Reverendwaz on April 01, 2009, 11:11:22 AM
quote:
Lane 1 stuff is never on TV because their equipment blows.
That's a very educated response to the topic. I'm by far not the best bowler in the area but I have had some very good runs with lane one equipment ( silver diamond, pearl cobalt, buzzbomb). Just like every other company they have their place just as well they have their time. Storm has been a force on the tour for many years and I don't see that changing anytime soon. As far as rg goes they are somewhat new to the show over the last 3 or 4 years. Ask this where is the lane masters and legends product ? The small time companies can not compete with the mammoths of the sport. But just saying their equipment sucks come on use your head.
Post by: Steven on April 01, 2009, 11:48:08 AM
quote:
I still don't see your logic by saying that they would need to invest $1000's to change equipment. Where are you getting that? You buy A ball, put your favorite drill on it and throw it during competition, you like it so you buy another one with a different drill and surface. You don't need an 8 - 10 arsenal UNLESS you feel that this company gives your game the best chance of winning and matches your game.
What am I not seeing here??
If you're talking about just a few Lane#1 balls to supplement what you're generally using, then maybe it's not that big of an investment.
However, that's not the behavior I generally see. The up-and-coming Regional guys who have ball contracts use only the line they're tied to (btw, a contractual requirement). More important, going outside the 'majors' umbrella is not part of their mentality. They came up through the ranks with free or reduced price equipment, and that's their thought process. I bowl scratch leagues with many of these guys in the West Region, and they look at my Lane#1 equipment with curiosity -- but they're not curious enough to go through the effort to try it out. Many have Holland/THB's mentality -- if you have to pay good money for it, it's not worth the effort.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't believe the majority go through the trial-and-error process you've suggested.
Post by: JOE FALCO on April 01, 2009, 12:37:43 PM
--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: tekneek on April 01, 2009, 12:58:05 PM
--------------------
Steve
Leading Edge Pro Shop
steve@leadingedgeproshop.net
512-755-2947
http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Leading-Edge-Pro-Shop__W0QQ_armrsZ1
Post by: Charles on April 01, 2009, 01:26:46 PM
Post by: JOE FALCO on April 01, 2009, 02:22:31 PM
quote:
If you do it again, all bets are off regarding me mentioning you in posts. I'll feel free to publicly make you an example of some of the major things wrong with bowling.
Fellow bowlers .. without trying to distract from this subject ( I currently own 8 Lane 1 balls) I'd like to know .. if you received the above message from someone who doesn't know you .. would you consider it a THREAT?
--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: JOE FALCO on April 01, 2009, 02:57:29 PM
..
--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: Steven on April 01, 2009, 03:08:07 PM
quote:
So, why don't they?
Because, Steven, it doesn't give them, for whatever reason, the look or reaction that they want, like or feel comfortable with. End of story. If they did preform the acclaimed miracles boasted by Richie and the rest of the lane#1 crowd, then every pro would use them, no??
Inverted: I don't know for sure. I pointed out valid cost/logistics reasons why it doesn't seem to happen at lower PBA levels. If you're certain the majority of 'free agent' touring players take the time to try Lane#1 out and decided it's not for them, then so be it. It would be helpful if you could point to specific players/instances where this has happened. Otherwise, I guessing it's wishful speculation on your part.
quote:
Elite even has two PBA titles and they are an extremely small market co. In fact, I think that they make lane#1 ads look honest when compared to them.
You know exactly what happened here. They paid Robert Smith (what I'm assuming is big money) to throw their product. The same way Morich throws big money at WRW to throw their product. You don't know the same results would be achieved with Lane#1, and neither do I.
This is all very interesting, but frankly it has nothing to do with the success or failure that you and I experience in our own hack worlds.
I've personally had my best success with Lane#1. I know that's a pimple on the azz of bowling in the greater scheme of things, but still more than 90% of what most amateurs accomplish. I'm satisfied with that.
Post by: Steven on April 01, 2009, 04:41:11 PM
quote:
It's not wishful speculation, it's logical. You're telling me that you're not going to use whatever you think/believe is going to give you an edge? Isn't that the reason that you use Lane#1 balls?
Inverted: As much as I like Lane#1, if I have free (or almost free) equipment at my disposal, that's what I'm going to use. There is a lot of good equipment out there. If I had the talent for the tour, and with the help of a rep, I'm sure I could put together a competitive arsenal with almost any brand.
quote:
No matter how anyone dances with this, the plain fact is you don't see them on the national tour that often. Why? One assumes that, at the national level with the skill sets the bowlers have, it's not going to give them any type of edge to use them.
Given that we basically see the same players week after week, and that most are locked up by Storm, Roto Grip, and Columbia, I'm not sure what we see tells us anything. BTW, I'm also not seeing Ebonite, Hammer, or Brunswick. Does that mean these are hack brands? Don't think so. You like to use logic, so maybe look at the players instead of balls. Mallott was successful with Columbia then Roto. Previously, Duke ripped them up with AMF, but now it's Storm. The guys with real talent will score with anything, so it's really a matter of which company is the highest bidder.
quote:
Didn't they have Rudy Rev's out on tour with his $50,000 hummer and an endless supply of lane#1 balls? How did he do? Right....
Again, focus on the player. Do you think Rudy would have faired any different with Storm?
quote:
As far as Elite goes, your excuse that they paid him a shtload of money to use it? It doesn't work. They may have paid him money to throw the ball along with Norm Duke, but the ball still has to work for them and it did.
LOL. Again, focus on the player. If you don't believe he'd score with any brand, then it's time to put down the joint. Several years ago when he was SoCal based, Robert bowled in our local scratch league when he wasn't on tour. One summer, just for the challenge, he threw a Storm plastic basketball. He finished at about 240.
I appreciate your crusade, but in this case, I think my logic beats up your logic.
Everything that happens in the PBA is driven by the dollar, and the smaller companies (for the most part) are not in the equation.
Post by: holland1945 on April 01, 2009, 05:21:57 PM
quote:
Ok, ...so why is this just a Lane 1 argument, because it's on the forum?
You can discuss this with ANY smaller company and get the same results....Lane1 just so happens to have a cult following
And, NO, I'm not a Lane1 basher...just pointing out the obvious.
p.s. I've never seen so much converstation about a ball company than Lane1. You bring their stuff up and BOOM....the thread goes nuts!
--------------------
Jeff
The Revless Wonder and King Douchebag!
Only Lane #1 says they're better than everyone else. I've never heard Visionary say that, for example...they tout that they make good equipment, but they don't promise increases in average or superior ball tech or anything else. Their marketing is more like "hey, we make good stuff, you should try it, you might like it".
--------------------
*** MoRich, Quantum, Brunswick 15# for sale - http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=231393&ForumID=26&CategoryID=12 ***
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Post by: holland1945 on April 01, 2009, 05:31:17 PM
quote:
I appreciate your crusade, but in this case, I think my logic beats up your logic.
So why doesn't Lane #1 do as other companies have done and throw a bunch of money at a good pro (i.e. not Rudy Revs)?
They charge more per ball, and for what?
1. Minimal R&D costs - 900 Global covers and the same basic core for a decade
2. Marketing - no staffers, no TV
Brunswick and Ebonite do benefit from the economies of scale it's true, but only so much. How do they charge LESS per ball while having pro staff, regional sales reps, way more marketing, and much more R&D?
The only thing Lane #1 has when taking the ball itself out of the equation is a better product return policy (that Elite has even better, not that anyone would want to throw them) and, I'm judging from anecdotal evidence, better customer service. I don't think that makes up the difference + more in the areas where they fall short.
--------------------
*** MoRich, Quantum, Brunswick 15# for sale - http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=231393&ForumID=26&CategoryID=12 ***
Support REAL change and REAL conservative politics in America:
http://www.mises.org - learn
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/ - activism
http://www.breakthematrix.com/ - video
http://www.rationalreview.com/ and http://www.antiwar.com/ - news
Post by: Steven on April 01, 2009, 06:05:54 PM
quote:
No, you don't see them because, for whatever reason, they are NOT matching up with the lane conditions you're seeing out there now. Not hack companies or bowlers, just not a match up that going to produce a WIN (not scores) which is my point!!!.....................
Barnes is sticking with columbia and I'd be willing to bet you that if he wasn't under contract, he'd throw Storm right now because the ball is getting results in a lot of bowlers hands, not just one, but quite a few.
Dude..please..you're really backing yourself up with nothing..
Inverted: Keep your cool. Don't pull a CRD on me.
Your back to phrases like 'for whatever reason' and 'I'm willing to bet you' instead of dealing in hard cold facts. You don't have all the information, and neither do I. We both have day jobs where we have to earn an honest living and we're reduced to speculating about this stuff.
If it makes you feel better to believe Lane#1 is not on TV because they don't match up, then have at it. In reality, there could be some truth to it, but nothing you've offered is much above pure speculation.
This really isn't a hot button for me, because it has no relevance to my own bowling. If you can figure out the final answer that drips some truth, I'm all ears.
Post by: idriveahonda on April 01, 2009, 11:13:06 PM
I own the following:
Buzzbomb
Supernova
Enriched Uranium
Cobalt Pearl x2
Cobalt Solid
Nebula
THS x2
Here is my input:
- I do not match up with the Buzzbomb...marshmellow
- My Supernova is the biggest dud I've ever seen
- Enriched Uranium is the strongest ball I have...and is quite reliable on a heavy house shot
- The Cobalt Pearl is probably the ONLY ball I really enjoy. I had a 1'' pinned, lots of TW (within regulation) one, and I wish it didn't get screwed up
- Not a fan of the Solid model
- Nebula is okay on FRESH
- THS stacked w/ polish is great, THS label @2000...not so hot
I know you will all ask...Why so many Lane#1 balls if you suck with all of them? I actually just took the game semi-seriously, and am making "repetitive" swings with the balls whereas before I was everywhere (push, pull, grip, loose, rev, flat hand).
Almost every one (yes, every one) has the EXACT same reaction. VERY rolly. I have tried soooooooooooooo many layouts to get a ball to go downlane and then get a hard turn...doesn't happen. EVERY ball picks up an early roll, and are very speed sensitive.
Needless to say, I'm now starting to open up my arms to some other stuff. I think I'm going to start off with a Hot Sauce or Cell Pearl...and then go from there.
And that is from someone who is not biased toward any company.
Post by: JessN16 on April 02, 2009, 12:43:05 AM
quote:
I'll put a little bit of my input in.
I own the following:
Buzzbomb
Supernova
Enriched Uranium
Cobalt Pearl x2
Cobalt Solid
Nebula
THS x2
Here is my input:
- I do not match up with the Buzzbomb...marshmellow
- My Supernova is the biggest dud I've ever seen
- Enriched Uranium is the strongest ball I have...and is quite reliable on a heavy house shot
- The Cobalt Pearl is probably the ONLY ball I really enjoy. I had a 1'' pinned, lots of TW (within regulation) one, and I wish it didn't get screwed up
- Not a fan of the Solid model
- Nebula is okay on FRESH
- THS stacked w/ polish is great, THS label @2000...not so hot
I know you will all ask...Why so many Lane#1 balls if you suck with all of them? I actually just took the game semi-seriously, and am making "repetitive" swings with the balls whereas before I was everywhere (push, pull, grip, loose, rev, flat hand).
Almost every one (yes, every one) has the EXACT same reaction. VERY rolly. I have tried soooooooooooooo many layouts to get a ball to go downlane and then get a hard turn...doesn't happen. EVERY ball picks up an early roll, and are very speed sensitive.
Needless to say, I'm now starting to open up my arms to some other stuff. I think I'm going to start off with a Hot Sauce or Cell Pearl...and then go from there.
And that is from someone who is not biased toward any company.
If you want angular in the backend, and if you ever buy another Lane #1 ball, try a Supernova XP. I didn't think this company could make an angular ball until that.
Of the 12 or so Lane #1 balls I have (and 59 overall currently drilled to fit me), the three most angular I have are a Storm Dark Thunder Pearl, Storm Xtacy Domination (an overseas ball) and the XP. The XP has just a boring ol' label drill on it, but I did take it to 2000 plus polish.
It's almost angular enough to be uncontrollable if the backends are hot. It's the most unique of all the Lane #1s I have.
Jess
Post by: bestbudzs24 on April 02, 2009, 02:16:56 AM
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" bowling is for one thing and one thing only to make money"
Post by: idriveahonda on April 02, 2009, 02:34:33 AM
quote:
ok after reading all the posts here on this topic. i will chime in with my 2 cents.the original question was about pros using lane #1 balls. its seems we all have are opinions as to why lane #1 isnt on tv(some are valid opinions while others are just ridiculous).its a fair estimate that at least 90% of us on this site are NOT pros and Never will be so who really gives a crap if the pros are using lane #1 or not.most of us here couldnt hit the same mark for an entire game anyways.i mean really if you are buying a ball based on what it does in a pros hand than you are not really being honest in you choice of purchase. it is almost guaranteed that it will not react like the pro you saw throwing it.so my logic is the loyal saw throwers will base their purchase more around research and what it does in the average bowlers hand cause there is no other way cause no pros are throwing it.and to the person(s) who said all lane #1 stuff basicly rolls the same and are more rolly. cmon put the dam crack pipe down for just a minute.lane #1 makes equipment that covers all the shots while making some of the most angular equipment out there.pearl cherry c/2,enriched uranium,golden nugget,cherry bomb,colbalt bomb pearl,ect.ect. the list goes on and on.so before you go shooting your mouths off about lane #1 do some research,dont just throw the how come no pros throw there equipment card out there.
--------------------
" bowling is for one thing and one thing only to make money"
Enriched Uranium is not angular, I've had two with a total of four different layouts. None were angular.
All the Golden Nuggets I have seen havn't been angular unless it's bone dry, and someone is ripping it down the outside boards with tons of speed and hand...then it comes back LAST minute. But those are different conditions.
My Cobalt Pearl(s)...note (s)...are VERY rolly. I can change from speed dominant to rev dominant, and neither will give me an angular backend. Only time I've seen angular out of one of mine was the same conditions I stated above...baked then hit a nice spot, and jumped back.
All I use is Lane#1, so I'm giving you legitimate information. I'm not a pro. I'm not a 210 average bowler. I'm right around 195, but have pretty good consistency and a fairly repeatable swing. I'm a young guy with good flexibility and will try and play any part of the lane. So any reasoning you may have (other than I don't match up with Lane#1), will be void.
Post by: bestbudzs24 on April 02, 2009, 02:56:26 AM
--------------------
" bowling is for one thing and one thing only to make money"
Post by: Gixer on April 02, 2009, 04:34:17 AM
quote:I'm not basing any of my decisions off what I see on the PBA telecasts, I was just curious why I haven't seen Lane 1 on TV given its popularity thats all..
ok after reading all the posts here on this topic. i will chime in with my 2 cents.the original question was about pros using lane #1 balls. its seems we all have are opinions as to why lane #1 isnt on tv(some are valid opinions while others are just ridiculous).its a fair estimate that at least 90% of us on this site are NOT pros and Never will be so who really gives a crap if the pros are using lane #1 or not.most of us here couldnt hit the same mark for an entire game anyways.i mean really if you are buying a ball based on what it does in a pros hand than you are not really being honest in you choice of purchase. it is almost guaranteed that it will not react like the pro you saw throwing it.so my logic is the loyal saw throwers will base their purchase more around research and what it does in the average bowlers hand cause there is no other way cause no pros are throwing it.and to the person(s) who said all lane #1 stuff basicly rolls the same and are more rolly. cmon put the dam crack pipe down for just a minute.lane #1 makes equipment that covers all the shots while making some of the most angular equipment out there.pearl cherry c/2,enriched uranium,golden nugget,cherry bomb,colbalt bomb pearl,ect.ect. the list goes on and on.so before you go shooting your mouths off about lane #1 do some research,dont just throw the how come no pros throw there equipment card out there.
--------------------
" bowling is for one thing and one thing only to make money"
Post by: se7en on April 02, 2009, 09:41:44 AM
quote:
If you want angular in the backend, and if you ever buy another Lane #1 ball, try a Supernova XP. I didn't think this company could make an angular ball until that.
Of the 12 or so Lane #1 balls I have (and 59 overall currently drilled to fit me), the three most angular I have are a Storm Dark Thunder Pearl, Storm Xtacy Domination (an overseas ball) and the XP. The XP has just a boring ol' label drill on it, but I did take it to 2000 plus polish.
It's almost angular enough to be uncontrollable if the backends are hot. It's the most unique of all the Lane #1s I have.
Jess
This is truth. The XP is very angular on the back ends. I bought my BuzzBomb to be my heavy oil ball, but it ended up being my benchmark house shot ball. The XP comes out when the lanes aren't giving up free hook.
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There is nothing so easy to learn as experience and nothing so hard to apply.
Post by: Uncle Crusty on April 02, 2009, 12:42:35 PM
quote:
Of the 12 or so Lane #1 balls I have (and 59 overall currently drilled to fit me), the three most angular I have are a Storm Dark Thunder Pearl, Storm Xtacy Domination (an overseas ball) and the XP.
OK, I don't mean to change gears in this thread, but wow, 59 balls? Is there really any worldly need for 59 pills in your arsenal? You must have overlap galore, there's just no way not to.
I mean no disrespect, none at all, but if you average 190-200 on THS (per your profile), wouldn't it be of better use to spend some money on an elite-level coach instead of buying oodles of new bowling balls? Maybe it's just because I'm so anti-ball whore, but that seems crazy to me. I know 235 average bowlers who bowl 3 tournaments a month (regionals included) who own no more than a dozen balls drilled and ready to throw if the need arises.
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."
-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann
Post by: JessN16 on April 02, 2009, 01:11:19 PM
quote:quote:
Of the 12 or so Lane #1 balls I have (and 59 overall currently drilled to fit me), the three most angular I have are a Storm Dark Thunder Pearl, Storm Xtacy Domination (an overseas ball) and the XP.
OK, I don't mean to change gears in this thread, but wow, 59 balls? Is there really any worldly need for 59 pills in your arsenal? You must have overlap galore, there's just no way not to.
I mean no disrespect, none at all, but if you average 190-200 on THS (per your profile), wouldn't it be of better use to spend some money on an elite-level coach instead of buying oodles of new bowling balls? Maybe it's just because I'm so anti-ball whore, but that seems crazy to me. I know 235 average bowlers who bowl 3 tournaments a month (regionals included) who own no more than a dozen balls drilled and ready to throw if the need arises.
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."
-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann
People have hobbies, and drilling and trying out balls is mine (I do my own pro shop work). I also build golf clubs and have too many of them, too.
Of those 50-something, I'd say I bought fewer than 20 NIB. Some are old classics (AMF's white XS, a Storm Thunder, etc.) that I had in the past and keep around just to have them, or I'll use them when I know I'm going to be bowling in a dry-lane house.
I'd say I actually "use" only about 10-15 at any given time. I'll rotate those same 10 to 15 depending on which tournament I'm going to.
I also give away a lot of balls to youth programs, new bowlers in adult leagues, and what people don't want I sell here for $5 plus shipping. I don't try to make money on it, I just do it for the hobbyist aspect. I like having a few of those balls on hand when summer leagues start, because that's when we see newly recruited bowlers and I try to get as many of them into a reactive ball as possible at the least possible expense.
Yeah, there's overlap, but some of these haven't been thrown down a lane even once in a year.
As for coaching, there is none here, not truly "high-level." My last coach is no longer in the industry, and he lived 4-5 hours from here. I would say I'd need to go 1-2 hours to find a coach at this point, and my work schedule makes that prohibitive.
Jess
Edited on 4/2/2009 1:12 PM
Post by: JOE FALCO on April 02, 2009, 06:28:46 PM
I buy more through CURIOSITY! Do I have other balls that fit the same condition? YOU BET! So what! Do I want to be a PRO? NO DESIRE WHAT SO EVER! I trade my car in every other year (maybe 3 years).. not looking to be a NASCAR driver either!
I enjoy bowling .. if I buy more balls then I should .. so what!
--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: Roy Munson on April 02, 2009, 07:45:36 PM
quote:
(ANGULAR LANE #1 BALL) x (SUCK) = SUCK
(ROLLY LANE #1 BALL) x (SUCK) = SUCK
(LANE #1 FANBOYS) x (SUCK) = WELL, YOU GET THE IDEA..........
Yeah,we get the idea
YOU LIKE TO SUCK!
--------------------
Roy Munson: "Morning! I hope you don't mind, I got up a little early. So I took the liberty of milking your cow for you. Yeah, it took a little while to get her warmed up. She sure is a stubborn one. Then pow, all at once."
Mr. Boorg: "We don't have a cow. We have a bull."
***** Looking for Pearl Cherry C/2 *****
Post by: bowlerdawg on April 02, 2009, 07:52:23 PM
--------------------
I'm your huckleberry
Post by: Roy Munson on April 02, 2009, 09:33:11 PM
quote:
You're right, I do like to suck.......
Make sure you brush your teeth after wards . . . you'll never know
--------------------
Roy Munson: "Morning! I hope you don't mind, I got up a little early. So I took the liberty of milking your cow for you. Yeah, it took a little while to get her warmed up. She sure is a stubborn one. Then pow, all at once."
Mr. Boorg: "We don't have a cow. We have a bull."
***** Looking for Pearl Cherry C/2 *****