Post by: Brickguy221 on August 20, 2006, 08:10:19 AM
I tried the WC Reactive on synthetic lanes Friday which had a lot of usage from kids using bumper pads and tried it on wood lanes today with fresh stripped and oiled lanes and on some wood lanes that had some useage and it is a dud on all of them. Instead of calling this ball World Class Reactive, they should have left the "CL" off the Class name. To sum it up, I am really disappointed as I had really looked forward to this ball being a good ball/match-up for me.
I will probably sell it, but want to wait a few days while I cool off about making such a bad purchase. Right now I am really upset and disappoinjted with it.
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Brick
Post by: monstercrank on August 20, 2006, 04:15:39 PM
--------------------
"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'" - Bob Newhart
---------------------------------
If guns kill people then spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat!
-----------------------------
Some people are like Slinkies....
Not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile
to your face... when you push one down a flight of stairs.
Edited on 8/20/2006 4:11 PM
Post by: Xfest on August 20, 2006, 04:27:49 PM
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ÈĻ Arsenèl
Track Mean Machine (Heavy)
Lane #1 Dirty Bomb (Heavy-Medium)
Track Machine (Medium)
Lanemasters The Buzz (Medium)
Dyno-Thane Vendetta Pearl (Medium-Light)
Brunswick Original Inferno Pro-Am Remake (Light - Medium)
Track Desert Heat (Light)
Brunswick BVP Ambush (Spare)
I throw it all, just give me a ball, I'll throw it. =]
Post by: burly on August 20, 2006, 04:51:14 PM
how is it drilled compared to your pap.
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###############################################
check my profile for my stats
Post by: monstercrank on August 20, 2006, 05:38:33 PM
--------------------
"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'" - Bob Newhart
---------------------------------
If guns kill people then spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat!
-----------------------------
Some people are like Slinkies....
Not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile
to your face... when you push one down a flight of stairs.
Post by: charlest on August 20, 2006, 06:12:46 PM
FYI the ball isn't bad. The ball + its drill + your release, ball speed are not suitable for that lane surface + oil pattern.
Don't you realize after all this time of playing with balls just how many possible combinations of ball, drill, release, ball speed, lane surface and oil pattern there are???
Then add all the possible ways that you can adjust the surface of a ball for a different reaction?
If you multiply them all, the number of possible combinations boggles the mind: 100,000s
You should be shocked and amazed when a combination is correct and works well for you.
So at least start making surface finish changes and see what that does. If you still don't get somehtign workable, then re-drill the ball and start over.
BUT DON'T BE PETTY AND BLAME THE BALL!
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 8/20/2006 6:21 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 20, 2006, 07:11:13 PM
quote:
Just because the lanes are wood doesn't mean the oil pattern is suitable for this ball + its drill + your release.
Note, I also said it didn't work on the synthetics either. As I already wrote, I tried it on 3 different conditions and all failed.
quote:
Just because the lanes are wood doesn't mean the oil pattern is suitable for this ball + its drill + your release.
No doubt about that. However this ball and it's drilling is what was recommended to me for the wood lanes and their conditions that I bowl on.
quote:
Don't you realize after all this time of playing with balls just how many possible combinations of ball, drill, release, ball speed, lane surface and oil pattern there are???
Then add all the possible ways that you can adjust the surface of a ball for a different reaction?
That is true and again there are also times/balls that simply won't match up to a person as well as they want, no matter what they do to the ball. I've had them, others have had them and I would be surprised if you haven't had a
ball or so like that. Might be made to perform better with changes, but not what a person wants or needs.
quote:
You should be shocked and amazed when a combination is correct and works well for you.
Never shocked and amazed, but happy when that happens. The World Class Particle and a drilling for my style was recommended by Galen and he hit it dead on. The ball is perfect for what I want it for. Ditto on the Absolute Inferno and recommended drilling by Bob Hanson. That ball is perfect also.
quote:
So at least start making surface finish changes and see what that does. If you still don't get somehtign workable, then re-drill the ball and start over.
I agree something will have to be done here if I am to keep the ball, but I want to think about my options of whether to start fiddling with the ball or sell/trade it for something different.
I should have waited until this ball was out for a while and proven or not proven. Instead, I fell into the old trap of reading the BTM and believing all they said. Every time I do that, I swear that I will never do that again and then I turn around and do it again. Maybe I will never learn, but hopefully this time I will.
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Brick
Edited on 8/20/2006 7:07 PM
Post by: charlest on August 20, 2006, 07:37:52 PM
quote:
quote:
Just because the lanes are wood doesn't mean the oil pattern is suitable for this ball + its drill + your release.
No doubt about that. However this ball and it's drilling is what was recommended to me for the wood lanes and their conditions that I bowl on.
Wood lanes needing a less agressive cover (read: resin) and synthetic lanes needing a more aggressive cover (read: particle) is a vague generality.
We have all seen wood lanes flooded so that everybody but crankers need a sanded solid particle.
PLUS we have all seen synthetics so dry that not even pancake core resin balls work and we need either plastic balls or pearlished urethane.
You really have to use your benchmark ball and see what happens and what oil amount AND pattern is present.
quote:quote:
Don't you realize after all this time of playing with balls just how many possible combinations of ball, drill, release, ball speed, lane surface and oil pattern there are???
Then add all the possible ways that you can adjust the surface of a ball for a different reaction?
That is true and again there are also times/balls that simply won't match up to a person as well as they want, no matter what they do to the ball. I've had them, others have had them and I would be surprised if you haven't had a
ball or so like that. Might be made to perform better with changes, but not what a person wants or needs.
I have ONLY complained about one ball ever: on that ball I tried 2 different drillings and 3 different surface changes for each drill. I tried each drill at 3 different house on at least 3 oil patterns as they transitioned.
Other balls I have tried 3 different drillings and 3 - 5 surface changes FOR EACH DRILL before I found the one that worked for me.
quote:quote:
You should be shocked and amazed when a combination is correct and works well for you.
Never shocked and amazed, but happy when that happens. The World Class Particle and a drilling for my style was recommended by Galen and he hit it dead on. The ball is perfect for what I want it for. Ditto on the Absolute Inferno and recommended drilling by Bob Hanson. That ball is perfect also.quote:
So at least start making surface finish changes and see what that does. If you still don't get somehtign workable, then re-drill the ball and start over.
I agree something will have to be done here if I am to keep the ball, but I want to think about my options of whether to start fiddling with the ball or sell/trade it for something different.
If you trade it for something else fine. We all do that at times. Lately I'd rather sell a 1 drill ball that doesn't APPEAR to work for me, to get some money back rather than plug and re-drill it.
BUT, if that happens, I can see no reason for you to say the ball is a bad ball. There are balls that just don't work for us as individuals. That doesn't make it bad.
quote:
I should have waited until this ball was out for a while and proven or not proven. Instead, I fell into the old trap of reading the BTM and believing all they said. Every time I do that, I swear that I will never do that again and then I turn around and do it again. Maybe I will never learn, but hopefully this time I will.
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Brick
I doubt if that would have made or will make any difference. SOme balls just don't suit our styles.
Besides if the Absolute Inferno works for you, the WCReactive is in the same range of oil handling as the AI, maybe barely slightly less. Besides, don't you have a few other Track resin pearls, maybe ones that Rick (tenpinspro) set you up with from your SF visit?
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 8/20/2006 7:37 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 20, 2006, 08:00:27 PM
quote:
If you trade it for something else fine. We all do that at times. Lately I'd rather sell a 1 drill ball that doesn't APPEAR to work for me, to get some money back rather than plug and re-drill it.
Yeah, that is sort of how I am looking at it Charlest. I just need a bit more time to decide.
quote:
BUT, if that happens, I can see no reason for you to call the ball a bad ball. There are balls that just don't work for us as individuals. That doesn;t make it bad.
I'm not always good with words. What I really meant is that it is a dud for me and not that the ball is a dud.
quote:
Besides if the Absolute Inferno works for you, the WCReactive is in the same range of oil handling as the AI, maybe barely slightly less.
Yeah, maybe it will work on drier lanes, I don't know.
quote:
I doubt if that would have made or will make any difference. Some balls just don't suit our styles.
Agreed....This is another thing of many things I have to think about.
quote:
Besides, don't you have a few other Track resin pearls, maybe ones that Rick (tenpinspro) set you up with from your SF visit?
Yes, I have two resins from Rick. A Havoc and a Heat and they both work. Nothing wrong with them and to come right down to it, other than needing the WC Particle for a better option (which it is as that ball rocks) on the synthetics, and the AI as an option for both the synthetics and woods, I really didn't need any balls. "H", I just wanted some new balls just like someone wanting and buying a new car of which they don't need. (I've done that too....lol)
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Brick
Post by: charlest on August 20, 2006, 08:10:42 PM
quote:
QuoteIf you trade it for something else fine. We all do that at times. Yes, I have two resins from Rick. A Havoc and a Heat and they both work. Nothing wrong with them and to come right down to it, other than needing the WC Particle for a better option (which it is as that ball rocks) on the synthetics, and the AI as an option for both the synthetics and woods, I really didn't need any balls. "H", I just wanted some new balls just like someone wanting and buying a new car of which they don't need. (I've done that too....lol)
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Brick
That I understand!
I certainly don't need or even want a ball that flips as much as BTM says the WCR does. Oddly, Legends says they want control out of all their balls. I have found neither extreme to be the case for my Legends/Lanemasters balls: some are great control balls; some flip so hard as to be almost uncontrollable (Big Kahuna, Masterpiece and Yeah Baby!).
It is not ... proper or suitable to make a ball decision, whether for purpose of practical use or for fun, SOLELY based on one review, and I say that placing great store in BTM's review process. I know I, and I suspect, most others, must needs take input from several sources before committing to a ball, and a ball drilling and a surface for that ball. The best is a combination of many sources including seeing it in person.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 20, 2006, 09:17:34 PM
quote:
I certainly don't need or even want a ball that flips as much as BTM says the WCR does.
Hey, I think you may have hit it right there as flip balls and I don't get along. I guess I didn't read close enough as I didn't know it flips and maybe the 3 3/4 x 3 3/4 drilling with the Pin beside RF probably doesn't help any either if it is a flippy ball. Maybe I should have drilled Pin under RF or bridge and CG out, I don't know. I just did what was suggested. Rob has suggested that I Email Galen (since I can't call because of my hearing handicap) and tell him of problem and see what he suggests, so I think maybe I will do that tonight or the first thing tomorrow.
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Brick
Post by: Hand of God on August 20, 2006, 09:24:02 PM
my 14lb big bang went long and arced and hooked late and inconsistent... my broters drilled the same... rolls way better.
might be what happened
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 20, 2006, 10:17:49 PM
quote:
i switched back to 15lbs because of the high RG on LM/L 14lb balls.... 15lbs rolls was better..
my 14lb big bang went long and arced and hooked late and inconsistent... my broters drilled the same... rolls way better.
I have no choice. Health issues forced me to drop to 14#. The weight doesn't matter anyhow as my World Class Particle performs great.
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Brick
Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 20, 2006, 10:28:32 PM
If the ball still does not read try this method, i am hand challenged too i am going to help you save money since i like you so much. Take ball too 1000 matte if the ball is then too early put brunswick ruff buff on top of that, please try my ideas before selling a potential great ball for you. I am like you Jim i almost never redrill a ball but i will try upto 6 different cover changes too a ball first. I personally do not believe that with low revs and at least medium speed that 1/2 pin to pap is going to make jack of difference.
Most higher end guys with more speed and revs are going to see a bigger change because unlike you and me our flipping balls never read the pattern correct anyway. Personally i would not buy many shiny balls in the future unless you are bowling second shifts leagues, i am just trying too help you before you dump a good ball.
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 20, 2006, 11:33:47 PM
I'm going to message you with another question or two as soon as I close here.
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Brick
Post by: monstercrank on August 20, 2006, 11:43:11 PM
--------------------
"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'" - Bob Newhart
---------------------------------
If guns kill people then spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat!
-----------------------------
Some people are like Slinkies....
Not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile
to your face... when you push one down a flight of stairs.
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 21, 2006, 01:22:44 AM
quote:
could you snap a pic of it shiny? i would like to see what the ball actually looks like out of curiosity, they never do look like the pics lol
My wife has a camera, but don't know how to put the pictures on this site. Pictures don't usually look the same as a ball in person does anyhow.
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Brick
Post by: scotts33 on August 21, 2006, 12:22:40 PM
In the long run both of you with your low rev less hand techniques are NOT going to like high RG balls which LM/Legends are. LM/Legends balls are mainly high RG and strong cover balls.
Ball Comparison
TRIPLE XTREMEâ„¢ Technical Specifications
Coverstock ACCU-Tread Solid Reactive
Weight Block RAD3â„¢ Triple Disk Technology
Ball Color Red/Purple/Blue
Ball Finish 800-grit Matte
Radius of Gyration 2.52 (Low)
Differential .055 (High)
Durometer 75-77 Rex D-Scale Rex D-scale
Flare Potential High (6†Plus) (High)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Absolute Power
Core Dynamics
Two-component
Dynamically
Symmetrical core
RG Max: 2.513â€
RG Min: 2.463â€
RG Diff: 0.050â€
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lane Condition: Medium Oil
Coverstock: World Class Particle
Ball Color: Royal / Sapphire
Ball Finish: Sheen
Radius of Gyration: 2.611"
Differential: 0.035"
Durometer: 73-75
Track Flare: 4.5" +
See the problem here Jim and Harry. I don't think either of you guys are going to like high RG lower hooking balls for the most part. JMO.
Guys like charlest and others like high RG balls because we have a harder time using hook monsters on most THS lane conditions. In many ways, I wish I had less hand like both of you with enough power at the pocket to carry.
I'd be looking at other types of equipment for both of you with lower RG's and good layouts.
These are just my opinions but I have seen you both complain about these same types of issues before. Take it for what it's worth....not much.
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Scott
Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 21, 2006, 12:46:13 PM
Surface choices first and drilling choices to match a person's game are way more critical than saying high rg are all out. These covers on these balls are so strong they overcome most release mistakes and they do not need the stronger cores that other brands do. Have you ever tried to cut down one of the diamond prticle balls??? If yes you will realize these balls are hard to cut down , even the super carbon based balls do not cut down as easy as other brands.
Btw you were a visionary man for a long time i do not match up with those weak covers at all that they use on there reactives. I have never owned the scorcher so that might be a different horse all together, but overall i do not have enough hand to make the visionary work well. The g-3 and frankie may are the two visionary balls i am keeping every other one is sold or going to be soon enough. My g-3 is at 1000 matte and my frankie may is at 500 matte, just to make these balls work for me on there intended lane conditions.
Post by: charlest on August 21, 2006, 12:53:52 PM
In general, I'd agree with you, but in the case of most/many Legends balls, their coverstocks are so aggressive that they act like lower RG-cored balls. I am. of course, hedging my bets by saying "most/many" because I have seen some that act like they have higher RG cores.
This is proven by brickguy's positive (so far) experience with the World CLass particle. Note that this not only has a high-ish RG, it also has a very low RG differential for relatively low flare. How this fits into his low speed, low rev game can only be due to the coverstock's aggressiveness PLUS his use of it on the RIGHT oil pattern.
Because of the Big Bang's greater built-in length (but not by a huge margin) over the World Class, I'd bet he would NOT be as successful with it. BUT I"d bet he'd like the Yeah Baby! and hate the New Standard. Bet he'd love the Big Kahuna because of its sharp, mid-lane (NOT back end) break on medium oil. Just some wild guesses.
The problem is you have discover for yourself, via reviews or people's experiences of seeing them used, which balls act like those you need.
Realize that for a relatively small company they have a large number of ball model releases; my guess is that they are still feelign their way along, trying to learn which ball designs their public likes best.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 21, 2006, 03:45:04 PM
quote:
Because of the Big Bang's greater built-in length (but not by a huge margin) over the World Class, I'd bet he would NOT be as successful with it. BUT I"d bet he'd like the Yeah Baby! and hate the New Standard. Bet he'd love the Big Kahuna because of its sharp, mid-lane (NOT back end) break on medium oil. Just some wild guesses.
Wow, Charlest is dead on here and he seems to do it without a Chrystal Ball or Tarot Cards....lol .....Listen to this...
Although I didn't buy either WC ball (both particle and reactive) from Anne Marie Duggan, she told me I would like the World Class Particle but not the Big Bang. (same as Charlest said)
I threw a friends Yeah Baby and liked it. (Same as Charlest said) In fact I almost bought one prior to my buying the WC Particle because it seems so versatile for several people that I know that have it. In fact I almost bought one a year ago, but fear and stubborness stopped me from doing so, but now wish I had done so as I think it would have saved me a bunch of money from buying wrong balls after that.
I tried a friends New Standard and didn't like it. (same as Charlest said)
What more can I say.......Charlest is right in what he says here.
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Brick
Post by: mini kahuna on August 22, 2006, 09:50:29 AM
I tryed surface,redrills,hand realese changes,I just never got comfortable with either ball.
I had people telling me the balls looked great going down the lane but I didn't like what I saw at all.
you have to like what you see when you use a ball or it kills you mentally.
I know for myself I can roll a ball a couple of games and know if it is going to work for me.
I had a track ball many years ago and after 5 frames it was dud city,I didn't match up with it.
bottom line don't get down because your matching up bad to a ball it happens to everyone.
by the way I sold the two balls to a guy with a low track and he loves them,go figure!!
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 22, 2006, 04:23:40 PM
Anyway, I too am having issues with the new WC reactive (although I LOVE my World Class particle - I have two now), I had problems with the Big Bang and the BUZZ (sold them both), and was having a hard time with the Terminator until a chat with Galen today; to make a longer story relatively short, I took both the Terminator and WCR up to 2000 abralon and put a good coat of their Factory Finish polish on them ... the Terminator shines now, but the jury is still out on the WCR (just not the back end finish that I was hoping for ... my Masterpiece is actually stronger).
Galen and I decide and agreed during today's chat that, after months of working together on various balls and layouts, that pins below the ring just aren't working out for me (Big Bang, Buzz, and the WCR is even with the bottom of the ring and to the right of it). The WCR is much better now with the new surface, but even Galen said that I may want to plug and redrill it with a different layout and use it as a test just to see another pin location will give me the backend described in the BTM review.
Any thought, inputs, suggestions, et cetera, would be welcomed and greatly appreciated !!!
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 22, 2006, 07:59:25 PM
I note that Rob is not getting any backend on his ball either. If I read his report on this ball right, he has the Pin under RF and maybe the CG out? I have the Pin beside RF and CG Stacked (3 3/4 x 3 3/4) and I have no backend either. I love that WC Particle though which is drilled 3 1/2 x 3 with the top of the Pin favoring the bottom of the RF cut line. (beside and top of pin touching the RF cut line) I will now go with mrbowlingnut's first suggestion next of 500 grit Abralon and polish very lightly with the Legends polish.
I'm simply at a complete loss of why this ball has no back-end or "pop" on the back-end no matter where I stand or how I throw. I would like to know what those boys at BTM were smoking or drinking when they blowed about what a great backend this ball has. Especially where they stated that they almost got whiplash watching it jump off the dry. I haven't even seen anything come close to that. Not even close.
I'm not a good bowler by any means and don't profess to be. I have 15 MPH speed and low revs and not much hand. Rob is a much-much better bowler than I and yet it appears that neither one of us can get a decent backend out of this ball, so there is either something wrong with this WC Reactive ball or something wrong with us and since it someone besides my self, I don't think it is us.
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Brick
Post by: scotts33 on August 22, 2006, 08:39:14 PM
--------------------
Scott
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 22, 2006, 10:53:57 PM
After reading your last thread entry, I do believe that it's me AND the layout ... NOT the ball; I've heard too many good reports on it and I normally feel that the BTM reviews are pretty close ... I believe that the layout just doesn't "match up" for me with the pin that low. Even a balance hole below my midline and on the VAL didn't do much, much to Galen's and my surprise ... and it should of.
You "hear" me constantly state to roomies in BR about getting a layout that suits their style, game and the conditions; after working with Galen for the last 6 months, I believe that he and I have hit on a common denominator ... pins below my ring DON'T "match up" and suit my game. I TRULY believe that this ball, the Buzz, and the Big Bang will be different animals for me if and when I get another and choose better layouts ... pin in the ring (WC), pin above the ring (the other WC), pin right of the ring (NS), pin above and slightly right(Masterpiece), KONG (pin above and right of ring), et cetera; all of those balls I have confidence in and success with ... AND consistant, dependable reactions.
Time will time ... and of course, I keep y'all posted and updated.
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 23, 2006, 12:31:43 AM
WC Particle........Pin beside and at bottom edge of RF hole... 3 1/2 x 3
WC Reactive........Pin beside RF and CG stacked.....3 3/4 x 3 3/4
Absolute Inferno....Pin almost completely under bridge ....4 1/2 x 4
Storm Triple X......Pin under RF and RAD out....4 1/4 x 3 1/3
Track Havoc........Pin under RF and MB out....4 1/4 x 4
Track GP2..........Pin under RF and MB out....4 1/4 x 4 3/4
Track Heat.........Pin beside RF and CG in palm....Label drill
Does all of this tell anyone anything?
Does the 1/4 x 3/4 difference between the WC Particle and Reactive make that much difference? I don't see how the difference in reaction could be that big between the two balls.
Anyone, before I sell the ball??????
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Brick
Edited on 8/23/2006 12:16 PM
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 23, 2006, 07:07:49 AM
Do you have a balance hole in it yet ??? And you still have more options regarding adjusting the surface, so unless you REALLY want to sell it, I'd keep working with Galen and exhaust all of the possibilities before you take that loss.
Regarding the comment in that last thread, yes ... apparently the layout difference DOES make that much of a difference; but remember, not only are the distances for the PAP to the pin and cg different, but the covers and cores are completely different too.
(Speaking for myself on this ball, I plan to exhaust ALL of my options before I sell it ... and I MOST LIKELY won't plug and redrill it since a 2 drill resale won't even pay for the plugwork).
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 23, 2006, 11:43:45 AM
quote:
Jim,
Do you have a balance hole in it yet ???
Ball had 1 1/4 oz side weight before drilling balance hole. A small shallow balance was drilled on the VAL.
--------------------
Brick
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 23, 2006, 12:32:12 PM
PM sent ...
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Edited on 8/23/2006 12:26 PM
Post by: golfnutFL on August 23, 2006, 12:56:58 PM
quote:
I'm simply at a complete loss of why this ball has no back-end or "pop" on the back-end no matter where I stand or how I throw. I would like to know what those boys at BTM were smoking or drinking when they blowed about what a great backend this ball has. Especially where they stated that they almost got whiplash watching it jump off the dry. I haven't even seen anything come close to that. Not even close.
I'm not a good bowler by any means and don't profess to be. I have 15 MPH speed and low revs and not much hand. Rob is a much-much better bowler than I and yet it appears that neither one of us can get a decent backend out of this ball, so there is either something wrong with this WC Reactive ball or something wrong with us and since it someone besides my self, I don't think it is us.
--------------------
Brick
Sorry to hear about your experiences with this ball. I'd be bummed too if I were you.
My experience with this ball has been completely different than yours. I have left it with OOB surface and it's 15 lbs. For me it is exactly as BTM described.....SNAPS off the dry. I have mine drilled stacked and bowl on synthetics that are normally, for summer leagues, medium to medium light (and occassionally REALLY light). I would say that I have medium revs and medium speed.
My preferred game is a typical down and in stroker-type. I've found that to be impossible with this ball on a med-med/light condition. I have to get waaayyy deeper because of the backend snap. For me it is a few boards stronger in the backend than my Masterpiece. It's been fun to experiment this summer with it but I'm not sure that it fits my preferred game.
I agree with you regarding the original WC. Great ball, it has much more of my preferred reaction shape....just hope that I see enough oil to use it when the fall leagues start up next week.
I have bought 4 L/LM balls in the last 2 months; Masterpiece, WC, WCR, and the Terminator. Only the WC, for me, would NOT be considered skid/snap. I guess they could be altered with drillings and surface prep but I don't prefer to tame down the strength of bowling balls. I like to drill them aggressively and use their OOB finish so that they work as the mfg intended. For weaker reactions I buy less aggressive coverstocks, i.e Hot Rod Hybrid, Pure Hammer, Slate Blue Gargoyle etc.
It's surprising that your Triple X is working but your WCR is not. I find the WCR to be much more aggressive than the Triple X. It must just not be a good matchup for you. Nothing else makes much sense to me. It happens to all of us, no matter what you try with a ball it just doesn't match up.
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Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 23, 2006, 01:08:58 PM
quote:
It's surprising that your Triple X is working but your WCR is not. I find the WCR to be much more aggressive than the Triple X.
Maybe the stacked 3 3/4 x 3 3/4 drilling with Pin beside RF and weight hole on the VAL is not for me, I don't know. The WC Particle is close to the same drilling with 3 1/2 x 3, but Pin is lower as it is beside and at bottom edge of RF line. The Triple X (one of my all time favorites) is 4 1/4 x 3 1/2 with Pin under RF and weight hole 2" under my PAP on mid line.
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Brick
Post by: golfnutFL on August 23, 2006, 01:55:09 PM
quote:quote:
It's surprising that your Triple X is working but your WCR is not. I find the WCR to be much more aggressive than the Triple X.
Maybe the stacked 3 3/4 x 3 3/4 drilling with Pin beside RF and weight hole on the VAL is not for me, I don't know. The WC Particle is close to the same drilling with 3 1/2 x 3, but Pin is lower as it is beside and at bottom edge of RF line. The Triple X (one of my all time favorites) is 4 1/4 x 3 1/2 with Pin under RF and weight hole 2" under my PAP on mid line.
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Brick
I'm not sure that the difference in drill would be causing as dramatic a difference as you're seeing. The way you have it drilled should produce at least some back-end reaction for anyone. After everything you've already tried I think that it is probably just a ball that doesn't match up for you. You've tried a few surface alterations already, all that's left is to redrill and retry the surface alterations with the new drill....or sell it and move on.
I had a similar problem with the original Cherry Bomb, nothing worked to my satisfaction. Went through a similar experience (a real cream puff back end reaction while similar balls worked fine), altered surface, redrilled.....just could not get that ball to work for me.
It sucks, it's expensive, but it happens. Me personally, I don't redrill anymore. It kills any return on investment that you might get.
--------------------
Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 23, 2006, 02:17:03 PM
quote:
It sucks, it's expensive, but it happens.
Yeah, I am learning that the expensive way....lol... This is the 3rd ball that I couldn't do anything with the past 12 months.
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Brick
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 23, 2006, 03:35:01 PM
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: tenpinspro on August 23, 2006, 03:59:51 PM
Try this on the ball Jim. Take it to 2000 abralon, if that doesn't promote enough skid, try 4000.
I'd also like you to have all your positive static weights checked for me(top, pos side and finger). Can you also tell me where your weight hole (size and depth)is on your val? (above or below midline/pap)
From the Lanemasters I've drilled and seen, they like to check and roll a little early. This is why I suspect they push the rg's so high to help offset some of the cover strength. I've seen the WCR in action and it's not bad. It definitely goes longer and has more finish then the WCP. I'm wondering if the weight hole drilled pulled out too much pos static which at your ball speed should still have some effect and the ball just isn't storing enough energy for the backend since you have tried multiple covers now.
Get back to me and I'll try to help...also responded to your email, thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robb,
As I mentioned, I see the Lanemasters roll fairly early so that also ties in with why pin "under" positionings may not work for you. Just a thought...
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl. - Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Vise Inserts Staff
www.Trackbowling.com
See profile for Track Ball videos
*El Presidente of the Track Legion
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 23, 2006, 04:05:11 PM
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 23, 2006, 04:16:05 PM
quote:
I believe the key point in the thread from golfnutfl is the conditions are medium to medium-lighty; if you check the BTM review, it states that it needs to "sniff the dry" to kick back towards the pocket with that dramatic back end snap and that the polished surface tends to skid on heavier oil ... and again, comparing the WC and the WCR is like comparing apples and oranges, particle surface versus reactive resin, and studded snow tires versus all-season or M+S tires.
Robb, in a way I agree with you, but if that is true, then out of the 4 other Reactives that I listed other than the WC Reactive, and they ALL work on a lot of conditions conditions, some better than others, and the WC Reactive not working on none of the same conditions, then that would lead me to think the
WC Reactive is maybe strictly condition specific.
--------------------
Brick
Edited on 8/23/2006 4:11 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 23, 2006, 04:19:37 PM
quote:
Very good points, Rick ... and thanx for taking a side trip from the TRACK Legion to help us "older guys" !!!
Hey Robb, I recruited Rick by Email today....lol....Honestly, I really did. He has been working with me for a year and a half or more now. I went to see him in may of this year. He is my favorite nephew.
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Brick
Edited on 8/23/2006 6:00 PM
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 23, 2006, 04:27:28 PM
Rick's a good one ... I've PMed many times in the past with questions and to get advise.
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 23, 2006, 05:33:27 PM
quote:
I'd also like you to have all your positive static weights checked for me(top, pos side and finger). Can you also tell me where your weight hole (size and depth)is on your val? (above or below midline/pap)
Rick, sent you an Email about this info.
--------------------
Brick
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 25, 2006, 04:33:09 PM
Things are looking better guys, things are starting to look better.
With a bit more tweaking, this ball may make it yet.
--------------------
Brick
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 25, 2006, 04:38:03 PM
FYI ... I had another weight hole put in this ball (plugged the other,of course ... location for the new one is in my profile, along with the current surface) and like you, I see a much better ball and backend reaction now; I'm waiting for Galen to get back from testing so that I can run a few things passed him, but I believe that I have the ball that I thought that I was getting now !!! Time will tell, of course. !!!
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 27, 2006, 05:33:34 PM
After trying this ball a bit more, if I am still not 100% happy with the ball, I have 2-3 more sanding-polishing combinations in mind to try as well as possibly moving the weight hole off the VAL.
--------------------
Brick
Edited on 8/28/2006 0:05 AM
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 27, 2006, 07:15:47 PM
To quote you: "Ball didn't work quite as well today as it did this past Thursday until I moved to the outside edge of the oil line almost in the dry, and then it performed better."
THAT'S the key; even BTM said that it needs dry and doesn't react well in oil;
be careful of expectations and just try to judge the ball on it's own merit and strengths.
BTW, now that I have the new balance hole done, I'm gonna work on new covers ... gonna check out 2000 and 4000 abralon and NO polish. More later ...
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 28, 2006, 12:30:47 AM
quote:
To quote you: "Ball didn't work quite as well today as it did this past Thursday until I moved to the outside edge of the oil line almost in the dry, and then it performed better."
THAT'S the key; even BTM said that it needs dry and doesn't react well in oil;
be careful of expectations and just try to judge the ball on it's own merit and strengths.
Robb, I know. I think it may make a good light oil ball for me and "maybe" medium-lite and if it does, that will be OK as I can use a ball there if my Absolute Inferno becomes too strong on those conditions without changing the coverstack on it of which I won't do as I like it's layout and it's OOB surface at the moment. I think that what bothers me the most about the WC Reactive is that it is not very versatile for me and my style whereas the Absolute Inferno is very-very versatile.
quote:
BTW, now that I have the new balance hole done,
What did you do with your balance hole?
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Brick
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 28, 2006, 04:32:45 PM
I clear-plugged the original one that was on my VAL and below the midline and the new one is 25/32" WH,3 3/4" passed my PAP and down 2", and 2 1/2" deep; the new one eliminated the 3/8 oz of thumb weight that the ball made with the current layout. I'm getting ready to call Galen now to discuss more coverstock adjustment options.
BTW, even medium conditions MAY have a "dry" spot to bump the WCR off of ... I believe that the ball is too strong to really be consistant on medium-light to light, especially if the heads and midlanes are getting fried.
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: Brickguy221 on August 30, 2006, 12:19:29 AM
--------------------
Brick
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 30, 2006, 12:26:14 AM
I chatted with Galen again today about mine, and after puuting the new WH in and see flashes of its potential, I've decide to take the cover from 2000 abralon and polished, to 4000 abralon w/o polish. Then, I'm gonna take it down step by step (2000, 1000, 800 gray pad)and reevaluate; BTW, I rolled it a few times during warm ups this evening with the 4000 cover ... looks promising !!!
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: gmdetective on August 30, 2006, 02:57:42 PM
Post by: Laybzz74 on August 30, 2006, 03:48:01 PM
FYI, I rolled mine at 4000 abralon in league warmups last night and I FINALLY saw the ball and ball reaction that I was looking for; unfortunately, it was too strong for the conditions, and since I hadn't worked with it with that new surface yet, I decided to go with my Ternimator (rolled a 631).
More info on my WCR and the reaction at 4000 abralon soon !!!
(Layout in profile)
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: gmdetective on September 08, 2006, 05:19:53 PM
Post by: Brickguy221 on September 08, 2006, 07:58:53 PM
After doing this, I now LOVE this ball and use it 100% of the time on wood lanes and am now also having success with it on the third game of a 3 game set on Anvil Synthetic Lanes. The WC Reactive is ALWAYS the first ball out of my bag on wood lanes.
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Brick
Post by: a_ak57 on September 08, 2006, 08:17:43 PM
--------------------
- Andy
Post by: Laybzz74 on September 08, 2006, 08:51:59 PM
YAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: mrbowlingnut on September 09, 2006, 05:32:55 PM
I used my WCR in game 3 of league my first night back and shot 225 with it. It will be with my this wednesday night at carry heaven the South Coast, i have a feeling it will be used all year long there. They put out an easy screaming backend house shot that i think 200 plus will be coming my way every week, my home house sold out too the corporate giants the Station Casino group, so too the South Coast we go. It will be fun bowling with an inflated average this house i kill at every time i bowl there so far.
Post by: Brickguy221 on September 09, 2006, 08:20:37 PM
quote:
I happy to help you Jim
Thanks Barry. I will have to appologize here for forgetting to mention that you were the one that told me what to do
and it worked perfect. Again, thanks a bunch as I appreciate it, I really do. --------------------
Brick
Post by: Laybzz74 on September 11, 2006, 07:11:36 AM
Could you "shoot" me an email with the info that you provided to Jim on that specific coverstock adjustment ??? And I'm just curious where you got that info too.
Thanx !!!
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)
Post by: charlest on September 11, 2006, 08:06:15 AM
My feeling is this is still not rocket science. Given the immense number of variables invovled in ball reactions, approximations will suit your purpose in 99.99% of the cases.
From Brick's summery I'd say try 600 grit sanding plus a light polish. Can't tell you how many times that 1 minute process has given me a good reaction with solids resins, solid particles, pearl resins, etc.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Laybzz74 on September 11, 2006, 08:32:08 AM
--------------------
Man, I LOVE this game; and I love it even more now that I'm using LEGENDS/LaneMasters equipment !!!
"Master the Lanes with Legendary hitting power" !!!
Robb in O'Fallon, IL 62269 (near Scott AFB)
LAYBZZ74@AOL.COM (Email and PayPal addy)