Post by: charlest on September 21, 2007, 02:31:34 PM
This feeling (and it's still not a completely logical thought, for me yet, just a feeling.) has been growing the last few weeks. I just drilled my first Buzz and a new Big Kahuna (since 16 lb Stings have not been available). I also had my Yeah Baby plugged. (It had the same drill on my 16 lb as was on my 15 lb, but the cores must be different enough that the ball reaction is different. I've kept it that way for a long time to be sure but it is just not right for me as it was.) I'll go have it redrilled soon.
So, having a Hornet, a Buzz, a stock surface BK and polished, high pin New Standard and soon, a Yeah Baby! will give me a relatively full range, basic arsenal. Add 2 or 3 specific condition balls and I'll have a full range arsenal.
As you can tell, I'm beginning to put some thoughts behind my feelings towards these balls. Getting mentally and emotionally comfortable using these balls and getting certain expected ball reactions when using them in different situations, all add to raise my comfort level.
Yes, I still have a ton of other brands, (there are a bunch of great balls being designed and made these days.) in both 15 lb and 16 lb, drilled and undrilled, all sitting waiting to be used. Among my favorites are several Track, Brunswick, Dyno-Thane and Visionary balls. It'll be most difficult giving them up, if I do get to that point. (not sure I'll ever give up my Blue/Green Centaurs.)
While I love trying new balls and seeing their reactions, I am tired of forgetting just how every one of them react under certain circumstances. Having and using 25 - 30 balls get a bit draining on the memory capacity. It does affect the scores eventually. But it is fun!
Then there's the money aspect: takes too much money to test all these balls.
So, I'm getting the same point to which many other have gotten. I don't know if I'll ever fully be there, using just one brand. Some balls are hard to give up.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: TWOHAND834 on September 21, 2007, 10:41:01 PM
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Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: charlest on September 21, 2007, 11:05:18 PM
That was the main concept behind my never, ever having even considered doing this before: limiting myself. Now with the Hornet out, I don't think I am limiting myself any longer, by using Lanemasters balls.
Hey, I just realized I'm still using a Brunswick Target Zone. The darned Lanemasters polyester is still so expensive.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: on September 21, 2007, 11:16:54 PM
When you're paying your hard-earned cash for each ball, you and only you, have to be convinced that the ball is going to fill a spot in your arsenal based on your own strengths. Too often people buy a ball because it works for someone else whose game is entirely different, and maybe it wasn't the best one for them after all.
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Post by: JS on September 22, 2007, 10:57:58 AM
LM lower priced (I think) polyester coming out this month. Now you can get rid of that Target Zone
http://www.buddiesproshop.com/product/4896/Lane_Masters_Kingpin_Bowling_Ball_-_Coming_September.htm
Post by: bgh on September 22, 2007, 11:13:15 AM
In all seriousness, I sometimes feel like I want to go with an ALL Roto Grip Arsenal. But then again, I think of some of the really good Track, Columbia, and of Course Storm balls that are keepers.
Being this is a Lanemasters Forum; I will say that I thirst to try one of these balls soon. A Friend is getting a Black Pearl that I'm hoping to get to throw soon. (he has almost the same span of nearly 5 1/2" span; not many have such a large span).
I do see the merits in staying with the same company. Especially, one's that have such a range of products and reactions (yes, I have been watching the roll out closely, Lanemasters have really improved in the versatility of their product line = targeting a complete line). There's a KISS factor; that once a bowlers match up with a companies products or even product line has been identified, it would seem to be easier to keep things in perspective both financially and mentally.
But then again, who can really resist any of those colorful and tasty shinny brand new gum balls. .....Inquiring minds, if I had the space, financial resources and enough time, I'd try them all (well, most of the good ones).
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SeriousKeglers.com (http://"http://Seriouskeglers.com")
Recognizing, Sharing; Learning - One Frame at a Time; Saving "Bowling as a Sport"
Edited on 9/22/2007 12:45 PM
Post by: shelley on September 22, 2007, 01:07:54 PM
quote:
Jeff,
LM lower priced (I think) polyester coming out this month. Now you can get rid of
I don't really count the plastic spare ball as part of an all X-company arsenal. Not every company has a spare ball that's regularly available and I wouldn't replace a spare ball unless it weren't round anymore just because I was using company X's equipment.
Besides, the two LM plastic balls haven't exactly wowed me with their looks. That's the only ball in my arsenal that I would choose based on appearance.
SH
Post by: charlest on September 22, 2007, 03:07:21 PM
quote:
I don't really count the plastic spare ball as part of an all X-company arsenal. Not every company has a spare ball that's regularly available and I wouldn't replace a spare ball unless it weren't round anymore just because I was using company X's equipment.
Besides, the two LM plastic balls haven't exactly wowed me with their looks. That's the only ball in my arsenal that I would choose based on appearance.
SH
Shelley,
No, of course, the spare ball doesn't have to be from the same company, but it would be nice. Nothing more, just nice. The Arrow was as interesting to me, as the Roto-Grip Spare Tire ball.
KeglerX,
One note, if I may:
I see nothing special about having all your balls from one company. I just happen to find myself almost "being there" and inclined to want to be there. I have paid for all my Lanemasters balls except for one that a retailer gave me, and that retailer remains special to me.
What's special is having a group of balls whose ball reactions are known, predictable and versatile. My main reasons for using Lanemasters balls have to do with two main charcteristics of their balls: their extra hitting power (beyond that of "new" balls) and their proven longevity. Their longevity makes them worth the slight extra cost. Their predicatability makes their slightly higher initial costs NOT be an emotional nor a financial obstacle. I know they will pay for themselves in the long run.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Edited on 9/22/2007 3:10 PM
Post by: DukeHarding on September 22, 2007, 11:18:04 PM
I'm in the same situation...Somehow, I've ended up with:
Black Pearl, Big Bang, Terminator, Satisfaxion, World Class Reactive and The Arrow.
I like the arsenal.
I know how the balls react.
I like the durability factor.
Still, I had a Hammer Black Widow Pearl, Hammer No Mercy Beatn, and a Track Kinetic, pass through my hands on the way to ebay...very hard to let them go....
I was strong, and sold them...Now I regret it a bit.
I'm trying to stay faithful to Lanemaster...it can be tough.
Interested in a slightly used Arrow LH drill?
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Duke Harding
Download Vintage Bowling Photos...... (http://"http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/7/wo/lQKXq8ePGopFB3pS.1/2.2.1.2.26.27.97.1.71.0.3.1.1?user=dukeharding&fpath=&preview=1905ABC.jpg&templatefn=FileSharing22.html#file0")
Balls on eBay..... (http://"http://www.dukeharding.com")
Post by: charlest on September 23, 2007, 09:44:50 AM
quote:
After the tests a few years ago by ABC or maybe some independent, there was even some discussion on the PBA forum. The thin shelled balls had a better carry percentage than the thick shelled balls. Columbia messed around with the hard cored ball years ago and abandoned it. So did Rotogrip
And just between us, I would bet the balls by Lanemaster with no Inner core between the shell and center core are cheaper to make.
Don't know about cheaper, easier perhaps. They say they're still making them all by hand. Since they're using expensive resins, they cost more. The ones with fillers, Sure Strike, are probably harder and more time consuming to make but cost less in materials.
I can't generalize how hard those balls, in the test you mentioned, hit to the fact that all thick shelled balls hit less hard. I know the COR has something to do with that as well as the coverstock's deterioration over time.
what the exact reason is why Lm/L's balls hit so hard, I can only make a guess.
I do know, or accept as fact, from personal observation over the past 3+ years, that Lanemaster balls hit harder than any other balls. This is from observing my own and others balls. Whether or not anyone believes that is not important to me. I have seen it over time and I know it, as opposed to "believe" it. It is one of the reasons I find myself having not one 2nd thought about the relatively high price of their balls. Whereas purchasing premium balls from any other manufacturer ALWAYS has me 2nd guessing myself as to whether or not they'll be worth it in the long and the short run.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: charlest on September 23, 2007, 12:50:44 PM
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: scotts33 on September 24, 2007, 11:00:09 PM
ONLY thing to do is get off all bowling forums so you won't be tempted to purchase or try any other equipment. Correct?
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Scott
Post by: charlest on September 25, 2007, 12:44:07 PM
quote:
FYI Jeff, thought about this situation since you posted here on Sunday. We find ourselves in much the same situation which we discussed on PM.
ONLY thing to do is get off all bowling forums so you won't be tempted to purchase or try any other equipment. Correct?
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Scott
Correct, but how can I do that??
Talking about temptation - getting the new Bowlers' Journal and the new Bowling This Month is sheer torture. I may HAVE to get a job now. Off to practice ...
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: Krumpy300 on September 25, 2007, 01:07:47 PM
There is definitely that extra something that Charlest desribes when it comes to hitting power.
The Buzz really caught my eye.
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Repetition is everything..
Post by: charlest on September 25, 2007, 05:50:21 PM
quote:
One of the better bowlers in my area throws mainly LM/L equipment. He threw the Black Pearl, Buzz and a Satisfaction during league last night.
There is definitely that extra something that Charlest desribes when it comes to hitting power.
The Buzz really caught my eye.
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Repetition is everything..
Based on your "like" of the Whiplash Pearl, you will LIKE the Buzz, near as I can tell.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: Krumpy300 on September 26, 2007, 08:19:01 AM
How is yours drilled Charlest???
And what do you like about it???
Post by: charlest on September 26, 2007, 06:44:14 PM
quote:
I will never live down the liking of my Pearl Whiplash.
How is yours drilled Charlest???
And what do you like about it???
I never did get to doing that: I had it out ready to drill and changed my mind. I'm sure I will regret that once I do drill it. I have loved Super-Flex pearls on almost every type of core, forever! Right now money and time is very tight. Sorry ....
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: Krumpy300 on September 26, 2007, 08:33:03 PM
Post by: scotts33 on September 26, 2007, 11:51:28 PM
Buzz needs more midlane oil to read it and hold. Projection to dry earlier sucks with Buzz as most.
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Scott
Post by: scotts33 on September 27, 2007, 12:30:54 AM
quote:
The Navy Fuze was a "killer" but it didn't sell.
This is the BEST burnt head carried down lane ball of ALL time. Nobody knows it but it's a best kept secret. Thanks kotm!
Alas mine cracked.........been looking since.
FYI......DB......most that like LM and Visionary like high RG balls and have a technique that suits them.
Most LM and Vis. owners never worry about ball death...covers shot, etc.
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Scott
Post by: charlest on September 27, 2007, 05:16:31 AM
quote:
AZO/LANEMASTERS balls all had one thing in common, a higher RG number than most folks were buying in other brands. With the solid shell(no filler) the higher rg number is hard to get around. With a solid shell you get between a rock and a hard place during production. If you use a heavy full size core, you have to downsize it. Or, use a full size core and make it out of lighter material.
With the higher RG number, energy is saved through the inbred lope of the ball, thus "more energy" to expend at the back of the lane.
Brunswick tried the high RG road for a while. The Navy Fuze was a "killer" but it didn't sell.
Columbia had to finally give up the High RG numbers. Folks didn't like the "lope" in the balls. Everybody wants to see the ball "rev up"
I bought a bunch of these balls 2-3 years ago. The FantasyX was probably the best among them. All hated oil, but were pretty good on dry. The "notorious" crack on impact with the pins wasn't noticable to any of the 20-30 people I sold them to.
To sum up, nobody wanted anymore of them.
Deadbait,
Great! more Lanemasters balls for those of us who know. They're hard enough to get now!
In reality, and I've said this before, The higher RG cores are needed more because the coverstocks are so strong and early lane grabbing. They do not have built-in "lope", only as needs be to balance the cover's properties. They exemplify the balance of core and cover.
If your customers did not heard that "crack", they're either deaf or they used the balls on the wrong lane conditions. I've been hearing it since the AZO Red Fire in 2002 and it's still in their latest balls.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: charlest on September 27, 2007, 05:20:48 AM
quote:
Not dissing The Buzz but tonight when my Buzz would not read the mid lane well on a shorter weird house shot <synthetics with a 5-man league rolling sanded stuff up the track> outside of 15 at the arrows was blown up....much to my surprise after trying the Buzz with a couple of different hand releases I took my SS Ogre moved back into the dirt with a spinner type release and killed the last game. Midlane/backend were killer. Not to say if I had a Hornet I might not have done the same thing.
Buzz needs more midlane oil to read it and hold. Projection to dry earlier sucks with Buzz as most.
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Scott
Scott.
Yes, the Buzz, is a true medium oil ball for those with real average revs and needs midlane oil. The Ogre SS is for lighter oil than the Buzz. A Hornet or maybe a Sure Strike (needs slightly less oil than a Buzz) might have worked. But since you have the SS AND you used a spinner release, why bother? The Hornet is a little less flippy than the SS, unless the lanes are REALLY dry.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: mijakame on September 27, 2007, 12:18:43 PM
So even though that satisfying "crack" on the right condition and the high quality long life of these balls has brought me back over and over, they've never been versatile enough for my release style. (Of course many might want to suggest that I just change my release, and that is fair enough, but for physical reasons and just personal preference I, and thousands of other decent bowlers, will remain speed dominant.)
But the good news is that L/LM are releasing their first Low RG ball soon; I don't remember the name. If the first plays well I will buy several and encourage others to buy them also so that L/LM recognizes that there is a low RG market out there they could be tapping.
Borden is undoubtedly correct in noting that the primary problem for most higher end bowlers is arriving at the deck with sufficient energy, and high RG with strong covers helps solve that problem for many. But there are a large number of us who can get through the break and to the deck with plenty of energy but can use the easy rev dynamics of a low RG ball to assist with consistent shot making on many conditions.
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Throwing rocks at sticks...Does it get any better than this?
Post by: charlest on September 27, 2007, 05:55:27 PM
SInce even the balls which come with a "sheen" are mostly polished with but a slight roughing of the coverstock's surface, have you tried sanding any of them thoroughly to 1500 or 1000 grit?
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: mijakame on September 28, 2007, 06:25:54 PM
I often take somewhat comparable pairs of balls out and play them against each other on the same condition. I often find the relatively high RG L/LM balls, with and without cover adjustments, to be completely usable and satisfying on their own, but I inevitably find one of these other low RG balls will consistently play a little better, for me. And this is even given that I have a bias FOR the L/LM equipment - I WANT them to come out better.
So that is why I wait impatiently for a truly low RG L/LM ball (the Dynamic Power?). In the meantime, I use the L/LM to practice form, and enjoy the nice "crack", but I use other brands if money is on the line.
And I reiterate that I can believe and see with my own eyes the success big handed players have with L/LM; and I have pretty good results with various L/LM balls myself. I'm just saying that when I need the maximum out of the equipment matchup, other, always lower RG, balls perform slightly better for me.
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Throwing rocks at sticks...Does it get any better than this?
Post by: charlest on September 28, 2007, 06:58:45 PM
I hear you and understand. You do what you have to with what you've got. SOunds like you understand bowling and options more than 90% of most people. I have more hand than speed; so I am in the other class.
I just thought of something. I just sold a teammate a ball for him to use. He has much higher speed than I and more rotation that gives him greater length in addition to the speed. In our league last night, I was using my polished New Standard while he was using the stock surface Yeah Baby! I just sold him.
He was in ecstasy over the results.
This is his first bowling in 3 years, recovering from an injury. In his 2nd game he had the first 10 and shot 289. He opend the 3rd game with a 7-10; then he settled down and still shot 238 with the 1st frame open.
He also played outside of me going out to the 1st arrow as a breakpoint, while I with my game used the 8 - 10 board as the breakpoint. For me the YB is a much stronger ball than the NS.
I hope the low RG Dynamic Power gives you what you need. However I'm surprised that some their ferociously aggressive, early rolling particle balls like the World Class didn't help you. I found it so aggressive everywhere I couldn't use until I put the pin over the bridge AND put a high gloss glaze on it.
(I'd also suggest a sanded Termonator or Conqueror.)
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Post by: mijakame on September 30, 2007, 04:42:22 PM
I do own the particle World Class. When I tested it before it would either not move in a reliable way for me in oil, or, on a dryer condition, it would move but it was too dry for that cover (no surprise) and it lost too much energy - I couldn't find a sweet spot.
And a similar story for the Black Pearl. And although I sold it to a friend before I tried it much, I also had a Yeah Baby! for a short time.
Reading my notes I can see that the WC particle cover was taking hold in the oil as expected but I just couldn't get the entry angle I needed without going slower than I prefer and adding more hand to the release than I like - with a net line to the pocket that was less forgiving than I'm looking for.
If going slower and adding more hand were my only options then I would just accept that as what's required by the game. But, the reality is that I can use other oil friendly balls like the Fury, Cobalt Solid, or Gamebreaker and get the reliable line I'm looking for without having to particularly slow down or add more hand. And the difference appears to be the RG (maybe some strong asymmetrics can provide an equivalent effect without so low an RG).
My, admittedly mechanics-ignorant, theory is that the characteristics of even a strong particle cover, as on the World Class, requires a minimal amount of imparted Revs to realize an effective consistent break and backend motion. My guess is that the dynamics of the core/cover interaction is just not unleashed, on the intended oil condition, without that minimal added side rotation.
Most higher end bowlers cross that threshold; they have all learned to add at least moderately high revs, relative to casual bowlers, with their release. So the balls, designed with that majority of high end bowlers in mind, work just fine for them. So I continue to recommend L/LM equipment to anyone who has some noticeable hand.
On the other hand, if you are a relatively straight player, speed over revs, you can better use a core that revs up with less effort - a low RG core. Just adding friction read to the cover will cause it to stop skidding and read the lane sooner and provide the time for the rotation to shift axes(?) but will not necessarily provide the right amount of side turn for a strong drive through the deck (partly because that early grab robs energy you're going to need at the 60 foot mark).
I know there are many purists who believe there should be one ball, or a limited range of balls, that would require the bowler to master imparting the necessary revs with their release action - as was necessary back in a previous bowling era. If we, collectively, want to make that particular release action a key part of the athleticism required for bowling, so be it. (I just started bowling in 2002 so I didn't have to live through some big equipment driven transition.)
But right now, as Walter Ray likes to demonstrate, a straighter game can compete on a level with a high-rev boomer game. My only disappointment with L/LM balls has been that L/LM hasn't particularly supported people playing that style, to date.
---
Finally, to really shift topics and add fuel to a long-burning fire, I suggest that, so long as the low RG equipment is available, that a speed over revs straighter style can be generally superior to a high rev approach because one can more easily achieve consistency (the real goal) with more than adequate entry angle with that straighter approach than with a strong hooking path.
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Throwing rocks at sticks...Does it get any better than this?
Post by: charlest on September 30, 2007, 06:30:20 PM
I'm not sure how much backend you require, on a down and in type of shot (that we all love!). Shame you couldn't get the right combination of drilling and surface on the WC, for the line and backend you require. (I sent you a message, with more details.)
I still think it may be just a matter of experimentation to find it, but that could be tedious.
It's good that you've found what you needed with enough backend to do what you want.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"
Edited on 9/30/2007 6:31 PM