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Author Topic: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)  (Read 9301 times)

Polish_Hammer

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15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« on: March 29, 2012, 03:31:11 PM »
Looking for some different viewpoints.  About 8  years ago, I was convinced to move from 16 down to 15 pounds due to a large number of 8 & 9 pin leaves and all was right with the world. The lighter ball allowed me to create some rather contorted wrist positions and releases and probably contributed to muscling the swing as well and inconsistent ball speed. I also now leave more tens and 7-10 than 8's & 9's.

 

I am considering going back to 16lbs to gain more consistency in my swing and timing, as the extra pound will limit my urge and ability to muscle the ball and lower my rev rate. I have medium speed and medium to high revs which often doesn't match up with dry heads or short patterns

 

Baring physical limitations or injuries and all things being equal, physics would say that more mass would mean more power and better carry, wouldn't it? 

 



 

kidlost2000

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2012, 03:56:08 PM »
15lbs at 16mph, or 16lbs at 15mph will have the same force when hitting the pins. So which ever you throw better is what you may want to consider.

"1 of 1." 
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

livespive

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2012, 04:11:33 PM »
How many revs have you lost going from 15 to 16?
This will play a large part in it as well.


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MI 2 AZ

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2012, 04:13:46 PM »
Which weight are you more accurate and consistant with?
 


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minimum bob

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2012, 04:43:22 PM »
(Sorry, can't figure out how to insert a quote.)  15lbs at 16mph, or 16lbs at 15mph will have the  same force when hitting the pins. So which ever you throw better is what  you may want to consider. 
 
 
kidlost,
 
Not quite.  You're thinking of Newton's Second Law (i.e., F = ma).  But, speed (mph) is not acceleration.  I think a more relevant measure is kinetic energy (i.e., E = 0.5 mv^2).  This implies that you only have to throw a lighter object a little bit faster to generate more hitting power .
 
Bob
 
 


My ball speed is 14 MPH...and I'm speed dominant....
 
Edited by minimum bob on 3/29/2012 at 2:44 PM

kidlost2000

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2012, 06:02:59 PM »
That was the example givien by bowling journal in one of their articles they put out once a year or so.

"1 of 1." 
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

DON DRAPER

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2012, 06:58:09 PM »
There are some definite advantages to using 16lb. equipment over 15lb. equipment:
 
1) If you routinely bowl on slick lanes the extra pound in weight will help.
 
2) If the houses you bowl at have new or newer pins or heavier pins.
 
3) If your typical ball speed is faster than average.
 
4) If you are NOT a power player.



Polish_Hammer

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2012, 12:29:31 PM »

 



DON DRAPER wrote on 3/29/2012 4:58 PM:
There are some definite advantages to using 16lb. equipment over 15lb. equipment:

 

1) If you routinely bowl on slick lanes the extra pound in weight will help.

 

2) If the houses you bowl at have new or newer pins or heavier pins.

 

3) If your typical ball speed is faster than average.

 

4) If you are NOT a power player.


 

Unfortunately I bowl in houses where the head oil is light and burns up quickly

Typical ball speed is 17-18 (if you can trust Qubica, not)

Not a power play due to the ball speed. (rev dominant) hopeing the added weight will cut down on the rev rate while maintaining speed and improving carry.

 

I'm having a tropical breeze drilled up next week so I can compare it to my 15lb tropical breeze side by side.  Yes that's how little head oil (40 ft pattern) we have in our home house that a tropical breeze is my ball of choice on a fresh pattern. I usually play 15 to 9 and migrate left via parrallel moves




tywithay

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2012, 02:16:39 PM »

 



DON DRAPER wrote on 3/29/2012 4:58 PM:
There are some definite advantages to using 16lb. equipment over 15lb. equipment:

 

1) If you routinely bowl on slick lanes the extra pound in weight will help.

 

2) If the houses you bowl at have new or newer pins or heavier pins.

 

3) If your typical ball speed is faster than average.

 

4) If you are NOT a power player.



An extra pound of weight will not make much difference after a couple weeks. I tried throwing 16lb last summer and after the 2nd or 3rd practice session my speed and revs were right back where they started, just took a bit to get used to that extra pound. If you're a healthy person capable of throwing 16lb without limitation, it will not slow you down over time. Only way it reduces your revs and speed is if you're straining to throw the 16lb. Also, an extra pound of weight has little to do with bowling on slick lanes. If you don't have the right surface...it doesn't matter if the ball weighs 12lbs or 16lbs


JustRico

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2012, 02:34:26 PM »
The factors that are to be concerned with is if the ball is slowing down properly, as well as if there is the proper amount of deflection.

The optimum weight cover to core percentage wise is 14lbs.

 

The reason for 8's & 9's generally are the ball is not deflecting through the pins which can be cover surface or an addition of a weight hole to slow down properly.

7 pins & 7-10's can be from a higher amount of ball speed or a steeper entry angle which can be from more excelleration or muscle on the downswing.

 

Without actually seeing what you may be doing it could a multitude of reasons on why you are doing what are seeing. You will create more ball speed with a lighter bowling ball, I believe it is approx 1.5 MPH per pound which can translate to about 3 more feet in length...which means you can blow through the breakpoint...


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MrPerfect

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2012, 11:38:15 AM »

 



JustRico wrote on 3/30/2012 12:34 PM:
The factors that are to be concerned with is if the ball is slowing down properly, as well as if there is the proper amount of deflection.


The optimum weight cover to core percentage wise is 14lbs.


 


The reason for 8's & 9's generally are the ball is not deflecting through the pins which can be cover surface or an addition of a weight hole to slow down properly.


7 pins & 7-10's can be from a higher amount of ball speed or a steeper entry angle which can be from more excelleration or muscle on the downswing.


 


Without actually seeing what you may be doing it could a multitude of reasons on why you are doing what are seeing. You will create more ball speed with a lighter bowling ball, I believe it is approx 1.5 MPH per pound which can translate to about 3 more feet in length...which means you can blow through the breakpoint...


The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.

So how many professionals are moving to 14lbs now?
 

I know the local pro in our area who is a younger gentleman has just made the move down from 15, but I haven't checked on how the change has made any difference in his bowling. 

Tex

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2012, 12:40:50 AM »
Just a personal observance from the past. Back in the late 90's or early 2000's, the Storm rep for Texas convinced me to switch to Storm and drop to 15 lb. I had high ball speed and solid rev's but he just felt it would take my game up a notch. What happened is very consistent to Polish Hammer's experience. I began muscling the ball, throwing through the break point far too often and lost accuracy to boot. After one season, my rep put me back in 16's but damage was done and took a lot of games to get back close to normal. Ended up going back to my Texas roots and sticking with 16 lb for many years.

 

Now today, I throw 15 lb balls and have for several years. The change this time was due to injury and I switched from a 5 step to 4 step delivery as part of the necessary change. I still muscle the lighter balls on occasion but consistency had improved over time and working with a good coach to get that second set of eyes. League average is about the same as prior to change but tournament scores are now getting close to what they were before the injury. I still think there are times that I loose carry due to the lighter balls, but also believe the opposite can be said and on some conditions the lighter weight and slower ball speed work as an advatage. I do wish I could go back and forth when carry is an issue, but like I said it was injuries that forced the change; back then arm, so I continue to refine and find tweaks and reaction to gain that carry on those conditions where things aren't going down.


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lsf_21

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2012, 01:22:34 AM »
I throw mostly 15 pounds but have a few 16# balls. I find that it takes about 1-2 balls to adjust for the pound difference.

I see no difference in revs, ball speed, carry, or anything with the switch. 

Key is to not have much muscle in the swing. Im working on eliminating as much as possible. 


sabman

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2012, 02:32:29 AM »
In my opinion, when today's reactive balls are transitioning properly from skid to hook to roll the difference in carry between 15 and 16 will be unnoticeable.  When this is not the case, the heavier the ball, the better the chance you'll carry all 10 pins.  That is why in the PBA plastic ball tournament, a lot of players that use 15 lbs used 16 lbs.  These days it's all about ball reaction.  Whatever weight you're most comfortable with that gives you the best ball reaction is the one you'll be most successful with.
 
Edited by sabman on 4/3/2012 at 0:37 AM

Effybowler

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Re: 15 lbs versus 16 Lbs (can physics be wrong?)
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2012, 03:22:14 AM »
A little bit of science will show that 16 does not necessarily have advantages.
First answering Don's points.
1) A few things here, a 16 lb ball will hydroplane through typical head oil and the puddle that exists from 10-10 on a typical house shot just as easily as a 15 lb ball will. There is a very small range in oil volume where a 16 ball will cut down to lane where a 15 lb ball hydroplanes, and usually after a few shots to make some friction in a spot, there will be no difference. Also, a 16 lb ball requires more force to change its direction, suggesting that with a defined friction spot on the lane, the 16 lb ball with assumed lower revs will actually hook less. For ultra slick lanes, a 16 lb ball will hydroplane just as long as the 15lb ball does.
2) Newer or heavier pins going down easier is all about energy transfer. A 16 lb ball going just as fast as a 15 lb ball will have a higher kinetic energy (0.5*m*v^2), but it also requires more work from the bowler to throw it at the same speed.
3) This is somewhat true, as long as going to 16 lb actually slows you down. If you keep the same rhythm and timing, chances are after a few sessions you will throw the 16 just as fast as the 15. You have to allow the 16 to change your rhythm and timing to allow you to use the same amount of force and throw it slower
4)This is not really valid, the changes to a power player's game by going from 15-16 will be the same as a tweener or strokers game. 
 
Tweaking the weight may have one key effect. It changes your deflection a little bit. If you throw 16 and 9-pin a lot (as a righty) a 15 will deflect a little more off the headpin and 3 pin, hopefully getting it to a point where it goes a little right off the 5 pin and scrapes the 9 pin.
 
My main reason for using 15lb:
A 3-ball slim roller + 3x15lb balls ends up almost exactly at 49lb, just under airlines 50lb limit. 16 would put me over until somebody releases a bag that weighs less than 2 lb. 
DON DRAPER wrote on 3/29/2012 4:58 PM:
There are some definite advantages to using 16lb. equipment over 15lb. equipment:
 
1) If you routinely bowl on slick lanes the extra pound in weight will help.
 
2) If the houses you bowl at have new or newer pins or heavier pins.
 
3) If your typical ball speed is faster than average.
 
4) If you are NOT a power player.