BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Gizmo823 on August 12, 2014, 08:28:37 AM
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Something I'm noticing already about the girls in the WYC . . there are several average to higher rev rates and some good looking form from the overseas girls, largely without wrist braces, and the ones that are wearing them are just wearing wristers and plain gloves. I'm sure I'm not the only one that absolutely hates every coach in the country going straight for a mechanical arm to put on a girl, and the vast majority of the professional women in the country wearing them. They will teach not to muscle the ball while at the same time putting robotic arms on them that all but make them muscle it. Women could get higher rev rates with less effort if they took the damn things off. I understand women have weaker wrists and some need support, but the strength of your wrist shouldn't matter much if you're throwing the ball the right way. Look at guys like Mike Fagan, Wes Malott and even Tommy Jones. You think those guys are manhandling it? Tommy gets an absolute handful at the bottom, but that ball just floats in his backswing and the snap at the bottom is like a whip. It's motion, not muscle. It just seems to me like the girls in this country are taught like they're all small and weak. "Well you're a girl so you're just going to have to do this." Ah, there's a good rant, haven't had one of those in a while. Carry on.
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You need a strong wrist to do the modern release. The issue I see for most is keeping the wrist firm (not breaking) through the entire arm swing. Most don't have the wrist strength to bring it back once they break the wrist.
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Not necessarily, strong but not muscled . . there are some girls from Sweden and England that are ripping on it and they aren't wearing any kind of support. Pretty slender girls at that . . Once you break the wrist, you really shouldn't need much strength to bring it back, gravity takes care of that. Like Mike Fagan, his wrist is completely broken at the top of the swing, but once gravity has the ball on the downswing, you just have to get your wrist back into the proper position to uncoil at the release. Shouldn't really take much strength at all.
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And why do you care?
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Kelly Kulick:
I DO believe in wristbands. They are useful in many ways. They allow the hand and wrist to hold a position throughout the entire swing and during the release. You aren’t less of a bowler if you use a wrist aid.
I have advised bowlers with weak wrist strength to try them. Individuals with arthritis also find them beneficial. I have also referred young ladies to use them as well as bowlers trying to build muscle memory for the release. They can be an excellent training tool. Not everyone has strong grip pressure to allow flexibility at the release.
My first suggestion is to try a Robby’s or Robby’s Response. As an instructor, I always take the bar in the middle of the palm out. I want the back of the wrist to be supported. A Mongoose is similar in design and provides the same outcome. If that is not enough, try upgrading to a Robby’s Revs or VISE V1, V2, or V3. These types of wrist positioners will give you the release and ball roll you may be searching for. In the end, it is personal preference when choosing. If you score better and develop consistency, why wouldn’t you use it?
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I see way too much cookie cutter coaching, especially in college. Unless the girls are already really talented and come in knowing what they're doing, it's like the coaches just go, "ok, you're a girl, so you have to do this." Can't stand it. I also don't like the idea that other younger girls are seeing this and saying, "wow, I guess I'm just gonna have to wear one of those to keep up." I watched a local girl here get basically forced to wear one even though she said it was uncomfortable and didn't like it. There was nothing wrong with the way she threw the ball and she wasn't having any kind of discomfort.
As for what Kelly said, I believe in wrist supports too . . but wrist supports, not robotic arms for no reason. Kelly also has some pretty old school form. Straight arm, straight wrist throughout her entire swing. You've gotta have wrist strength to throw it like that. I'll bounce one back at you. Leanne (Barrette) Hulsenberg. You think that takes much if any wrist strength at all? She has an extremely weak wrist position throughout her entire backswing, but with a little elbow action she gets behind it and then just uncoils like a whip and gets right through it. There's no muscling there, just physics. I'm a super big fan of her game, so I might be biased . . but I'm also not a big fan of bandaids. There's a way to do things without really taxing your body so much. I went through a lot of issues myself with "dead arm" after I dislocated my shoulder, it was a pretty bad dislocation that messed some stuff up (didn't require surgery though) and I lost a lot of strength in my entire arm. Before it happened, I used a wrister myself. I'd get tendonitis in my elbow or have other issues with my whole arm. Now I have more revs and more speed with virtually zero wear and tear on my arm.
I'm not saying that's the way everyone needs to do it or the way everyone should do it . . because some people honestly need those supports. But sometimes it's like giving a crutch to a person who is perfectly capable of walking just fine. Say they take that crutch and start using it like they do have a problem. Pretty soon it's something you rely on and depend on rather than trying to build strength or just use the laws of physics to your advantage. I went through being weak myself and I'm already pretty slender to begin with. Too many coaches just get a one track mind and push the easy button for way too much stuff instead of learning their student and finding out what tools they have to work with.
And why do you care?
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Most of it is because kids go up in ball weight too quick and are unable to develop solid fundamentals because it is all they can do hold and swing the ball. From my experience in the pro shop it is usually the parents fault as they either think their kid is different than the rest of the kids and can handle something they can't or they think Johnny or Sally can grow into it instead of having to buy another ball in a year.
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My 15 year old was throwing 15 pound balls 18 to 19 quibica. We started him off with 13 and went to 14. His wrist are not strong enough to keep from breaking on his backswing. His backswing is naturally vertical and he does not feel comfortable trying to keep it lower.
He has gone to using a Robby's Rev. It helps him to keep his wrist in the right position. Ultimately, I think that he should lose the wrist brace, but for a quick fix, the brace helps. I don't think his wrist will get stronger as long as he uses the brace. The mechanics of the release is also different using a brace.
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Well but is breaking his wrist in the backswing really such a bad thing? Look at Mike Fagan, that guy doesn't just break it, he bends it completely back. It's easier on your arm, you allow physics and gravity to do all the work. Any time your armswing isn't free, if any part of it is muscled or forced, you're asking for trouble. Sometimes you also have to do what your body naturally allows you to do. If you're never going to be a big speed or big rev bowler, you've gotta find a way to work to your strengths. You can't just ignore weaknesses obviously, but there's no point in teaching a kid that's 5'5" to be a center playing basketball . . that's never gonna happen. You have to address the relevant weaknesses.
My 15 year old was throwing 15 pound balls 18 to 19 quibica. We started him off with 13 and went to 14. His wrist are not strong enough to keep from breaking on his backswing. His backswing is naturally vertical and he does not feel comfortable trying to keep it lower.
He has gone to using a Robby's Rev. It helps him to keep his wrist in the right position. Ultimately, I think that he should lose the wrist brace, but for a quick fix, the brace helps. I don't think his wrist will get stronger as long as he uses the brace. The mechanics of the release is also different using a brace.
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I've also never been able to "cup" a 15 pound ball and I really hurt my arm and wrist sometimes trying to do it, besides developing some really odd form to cheat around it. I've still got some really odd form, but it's effective, and nearly effortless. My entire body gets tired a long time before my arm does. Never hurts, never is sore the next day.
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This is nothing more than the same tired ol' argument against two-hand bowlers. If it's something different than what YOU have found to work for YOU, then it must be wrong.
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You can't compare the way the top professionals break their wrists with kids. The difference being the professionals are strong enough to use that type of wrist position and still get their hand behind and underneath the ball and get the ball tucked in to have leverage. Kids let their wrist break down and their hand is on the top outside of the ball with no leverage and it spins like a top.
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This is nothing more than the same tired ol' argument against two-hand bowlers. If it's something different than what YOU have found to work for YOU, then it must be wrong.
Get real, two handed bowling is a learned/acquired skill, any bloke can throw a Robo-arm on. Its a crutch, period.
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This is nothing more than the same tired ol' argument against two-hand bowlers. If it's something different than what YOU have found to work for YOU, then it must be wrong.
Get real, two handed bowling is a learned/acquired skill, any bloke can throw a Robo-arm on. Its a crutch, period.
Grow up.
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This is nothing more than the same tired ol' argument against two-hand bowlers. If it's something different than what YOU have found to work for YOU, then it must be wrong.
Get real, two handed bowling is a learned/acquired skill, any bloke can throw a Robo-arm on. Its a crutch, period.
Grow up.
You must wear a Robo-arm, clown.
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Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance.
Plato
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I get your point Milo, but I try not to be like that . . if I'm like that, I'm just a cookie cutter in a different direction. I'm a firm believer in the single idea that there's a lot of ways to skin a cat. I have one theory, and that's to consider everything. Whatever's best for the bowler is what needs to happen. I'm not against wrist braces at all, I'm against the idea that every girl/woman needs one . .
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I get your point Milo, but I try not to be like that . . if I'm like that, I'm just a cookie cutter in a different direction. I'm a firm believer in the single idea that there's a lot of ways to skin a cat. I have one theory, and that's to consider everything. Whatever's best for the bowler is what needs to happen. I'm not against wrist braces at all, I'm against the idea that every girl/woman needs one . .
Now I can agree with that Giz.
I work with new bowlers now and then as well. While I don't consider myself a coach, I do find that the "robo-arm" is a great teaching tool for good feel. Once they learn a proper release, then it's up to them whether to continue to use it or not.
There are legitimate uses for a lot of bowlers. The best female bowler I know personally, uses one at times. She bowls in the local high level scratch leagues, as was a runner up for Collegiate Bowler of the Year in 2009-2010. Not to mention some of the top level female bowlers use them.
But maybe because some local house hack gets his a$$ handed to him on a regular basis by a 70 year old using a "robo-arm" in his Friday Fluffers league, it must be a crutch. ;D
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This pretty much nails it for my son. The brace helps him to stay behind the ball, and without it, he tends to spin it, working the side of the ball. He is not a small kid, and is strong for his age, just has not developed the wrist strength necessary to stay behind it throughout his swing. We intend to start working, slowly, on him developing his release without the brace and to use the brace when necessary, to give him the correct feel as far as hand position is concerned.
I use a brace and can tell you that you do not cup and release your wrist when you are wearing a Robby's Rev- the brace will not allow it.You can't compare the way the top professionals break their wrists with kids. The difference being the professionals are strong enough to use that type of wrist position and still get their hand behind and underneath the ball and get the ball tucked in to have leverage. Kids let their wrist break down and their hand is on the top outside of the ball with no leverage and it spins like a top.
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He is strong for his age but doesn't have the wrist strength.
Thank you for being the perfect example of the parent I am describing.
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He is strong for his age but doesn't have the wrist strength.
Thank you for being the perfect example of the parent I am describing.
He is strong for his age but doesn't have the wrist strength.
Thank you for being the perfect example of the parent I am describing.
USBC Bronze level coach says 14 is too light for him and that he should use the brace until he develops his release.
He is 5'9' 180lb and bench presses 190+. What's your point?
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He needs a better coach if he can bench 190 but can't handle a 15 pound bowling ball.
My point is he didn't develop good technique before going up in weight, as I previously stated. Now he needs a brace because he has bad fundamentals, not because he is weak.
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He needs a better coach if he can bench 190 but can't handle a 15 pound bowling ball.
My point is he didn't develop good technique before going up in weight, as I previously stated. Now he needs a brace because he has bad fundamentals, not because he is weak.
You are too quick to make assumptions. He has not developed any habits. He bowls infrequently and has not put in the time necessary to develop a solid release. His interest are more focused on basketball and girls than bowling.
Being able to bench press weight does not translate into having a strong wrist.
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So the question is to those who state it as a crutch:
How much money have you lost to those of us who use a robotic arm?
It must of been alot!
I get it, too much pain bringing up those memories! :P
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I get your point Milo, but I try not to be like that . . if I'm like that, I'm just a cookie cutter in a different direction. I'm a firm believer in the single idea that there's a lot of ways to skin a cat. I have one theory, and that's to consider everything. Whatever's best for the bowler is what needs to happen. I'm not against wrist braces at all, I'm against the idea that every girl/woman needs one . .
It take's time to change. We have read this in many articles and seen it with our own eyes. Changing someone's bowling style does not happen overnight. In case you haven't noticed, there is big shortage of bowling coaches out there. Most kids learn on their own or worse yet from their parents.
When a kid has bad habits and you have little time, what are you going to do as a coach on a team?
By the time the kid has a solid the bowling release (by your standards), she will be working on her masters degree or will be well established in her career.
I see the opposite. I am actually seeing a trend where kids are staying away from them. Just like your original post, we are seeing young women not using wrist supports and they throw an awesome ball.
Most kids at my local center don't want to wear one.
My only comment to add, don't look down on those that use a wrist device. I will never understand why some have so much of an issue with it.
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I get your point Milo, but I try not to be like that . . if I'm like that, I'm just a cookie cutter in a different direction. I'm a firm believer in the single idea that there's a lot of ways to skin a cat. I have one theory, and that's to consider everything. Whatever's best for the bowler is what needs to happen. I'm not against wrist braces at all, I'm against the idea that every girl/woman needs one . .
It take's time to change. We have read this in many articles and seen it with our own eyes. Changing someone's bowling style does not happen overnight. In case you haven't noticed, there is big shortage of bowling coaches out there. Most kids learn on their own or worse yet from their parents.
When a kid has bad habits and you have little time, what are you going to do as a coach on a team?
By the time the kid has a solid the bowling release (by your standards), she will be working on her masters degree or will be well established in her career.
I see the opposite. I am actually seeing a trend where kids are staying away from them. Just like your original post, we are seeing young women not using wrist supports and they throw an awesome ball.
Most kids at my local center don't want to wear one.
My only comment to add, don't look down on those that use a wrist device. I will never understand why some have so much of an issue with it.
Why do you think the local kids at your center don't want to wear one? Even at a young age its viewed as a crutch or "weakness", you want to see a youth bowler (at least in the Chicagoland area) get their wrist in a strong position? Tell them you're going to grab one of those dorky robo-arms.
Other than women, I can't think of any successful players in this area that wear one of those contraptions (Hold for one senior sandbagger in the area with the initials RH that wears a mongoose). So to answer your passive aggressive dig, I have lost very little, if any, money to Robo-Arms. As a matter of fact, there is a young player in the area that was a relative unknown that burst onto the scene, once he started to get more exposure and do well at certain events word got out he wore one these Robo-arms. Immediately dismissed, no matter he does, or wins, he will be knocked down a peg for wearing one of those.
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You guys are funny. The lefty on tour that has won a lot of money wearing one of those dorky robo arms. Do you think people care about whether its cool or not. Do you think it is relevant whether it is cool or not?
The question is whether it aids the peroson's game or is necessary. If it does or is necessary, then who cares about how cool it looks.
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You guys are funny. The lefty on tour that has won a lot of money wearing one of those dorky robo arms. Do you think people care about whether its cool or not. Do you think it is relevant whether it is cool or not?
The question is whether it aids the peroson's game or is necessary. If it does or is necessary, then who cares about how cool it looks.
Exactly.
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As a matter of fact, there is a young player in the area that was a relative unknown that burst onto the scene, once he started to get more exposure and do well at certain events word got out he wore one these Robo-arms. Immediately dismissed, no matter he does, or wins, he will be knocked down a peg for wearing one of those.
Yea, and I bet he really cares what your opinion is when he has your money in his pocket. :o
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You guys are funny. The lefty on tour that has won a lot of money wearing one of those dorky robo arms. Do you think people care about whether its cool or not. Do you think it is relevant whether it is cool or not?
The question is whether it aids the peroson's game or is necessary. If it does or is necessary, then who cares about how cool it looks.
Stop, Mike Scroggins hasnt been relevant on tour in quite some time.
As a matter of fact, there is a young player in the area that was a relative unknown that burst onto the scene, once he started to get more exposure and do well at certain events word got out he wore one these Robo-arms. Immediately dismissed, no matter he does, or wins, he will be knocked down a peg for wearing one of those.
Yea, and I bet he really cares what your opinion is when he has your money in his pocket. :o
Ive only faced him in team events, be it baker games or or 4 man team tournament formats. My money was not in is pocket, I know you have a chub in your shorts for Robo-Arms, but relax. Fact is, going up the lane, he one of the best in the area, most people wont beat him out there. Luckily he is right handed, so anything left of 15 his Robo-Arm wont allow to carry and he flat tens, a lot. I can give you his name and you can look how well he has done (or hasnt done in regionals). So simply put, he doesnt "have my money in his pocket". You wil have to find someone else to live vicariously through and masturbate to that person. You cant create angle with those things on. Period. Now I know you wear you one, and youll have a rebuttal saying "I create angle with my Pro-release, with the extremely musty, soft felt lining underneath". No you dont, the built in friction on your house pattern does.
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You guys are funny. The lefty on tour that has won a lot of money wearing one of those dorky robo arms. Do you think people care about whether its cool or not. Do you think it is relevant whether it is cool or not?
The question is whether it aids the peroson's game or is necessary. If it does or is necessary, then who cares about how cool it looks.
Stop, Mike Scroggins hasnt been relevant on tour in quite some time.
As a matter of fact, there is a young player in the area that was a relative unknown that burst onto the scene, once he started to get more exposure and do well at certain events word got out he wore one these Robo-arms. Immediately dismissed, no matter he does, or wins, he will be knocked down a peg for wearing one of those.
Yea, and I bet he really cares what your opinion is when he has your money in his pocket. :o
Ive only faced him in team events, be it baker games or or 4 man team tournament formats. My money was not in is pocket, I know you have a chub in your shorts for Robo-Arms, but relax. Fact is, going up the lane, he one of the best in the area, most people wont beat him out there. Luckily he is right handed, so anything left of 15 his Robo-Arm wont allow to carry and he flat tens, a lot. I can give you his name and you can look how well he has done (or hasnt done in regionals). So simply put, he doesnt "have my money in his pocket". You wil have to find someone else to live vicariously through and masturbate to that person. You cant create angle with those things on. Period. Now I know you wear you one, and youll have a rebuttal saying "I create angle with my Pro-release, with the extremely musty, soft felt lining underneath". No you dont, the built in friction on your house pattern does.
Yea, he has your money. Otherwise you wouldn't be so defensive about it. ::)
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You guys are funny. The lefty on tour that has won a lot of money wearing one of those dorky robo arms. Do you think people care about whether its cool or not. Do you think it is relevant whether it is cool or not?
The question is whether it aids the peroson's game or is necessary. If it does or is necessary, then who cares about how cool it looks.
Stop, Mike Scroggins hasnt been relevant on tour in quite some time.
As a matter of fact, there is a young player in the area that was a relative unknown that burst onto the scene, once he started to get more exposure and do well at certain events word got out he wore one these Robo-arms. Immediately dismissed, no matter he does, or wins, he will be knocked down a peg for wearing one of those.
Yea, and I bet he really cares what your opinion is when he has your money in his pocket. :o
Ive only faced him in team events, be it baker games or or 4 man team tournament formats. My money was not in is pocket, I know you have a chub in your shorts for Robo-Arms, but relax. Fact is, going up the lane, he one of the best in the area, most people wont beat him out there. Luckily he is right handed, so anything left of 15 his Robo-Arm wont allow to carry and he flat tens, a lot. I can give you his name and you can look how well he has done (or hasnt done in regionals). So simply put, he doesnt "have my money in his pocket". You wil have to find someone else to live vicariously through and masturbate to that person. You cant create angle with those things on. Period. Now I know you wear you one, and youll have a rebuttal saying "I create angle with my Pro-release, with the extremely musty, soft felt lining underneath". No you dont, the built in friction on your house pattern does.
Yea, he has your money. Otherwise you wouldn't be so defensive about it. ::)
I bowl to bowl, not to get rich, I dont do pots/brackets etc, so just how does he have my money again? I just get annoyed by you in general, and the fact you compare guns to pencils in your signature yet justify these ridiculous contraptions is beyond me.
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You guys are funny. The lefty on tour that has won a lot of money wearing one of those dorky robo arms. Do you think people care about whether its cool or not. Do you think it is relevant whether it is cool or not?
The question is whether it aids the peroson's game or is necessary. If it does or is necessary, then who cares about how cool it looks.
Stop, Mike Scroggins hasnt been relevant on tour in quite some time.
As a matter of fact, there is a young player in the area that was a relative unknown that burst onto the scene, once he started to get more exposure and do well at certain events word got out he wore one these Robo-arms. Immediately dismissed, no matter he does, or wins, he will be knocked down a peg for wearing one of those.
Yea, and I bet he really cares what your opinion is when he has your money in his pocket. :o
Ive only faced him in team events, be it baker games or or 4 man team tournament formats. My money was not in is pocket, I know you have a chub in your shorts for Robo-Arms, but relax. Fact is, going up the lane, he one of the best in the area, most people wont beat him out there. Luckily he is right handed, so anything left of 15 his Robo-Arm wont allow to carry and he flat tens, a lot. I can give you his name and you can look how well he has done (or hasnt done in regionals). So simply put, he doesnt "have my money in his pocket". You wil have to find someone else to live vicariously through and masturbate to that person. You cant create angle with those things on. Period. Now I know you wear you one, and youll have a rebuttal saying "I create angle with my Pro-release, with the extremely musty, soft felt lining underneath". No you dont, the built in friction on your house pattern does.
Yea, he has your money. Otherwise you wouldn't be so defensive about it. ::)
I bowl to bowl, not to get rich, I dont do pots/brackets etc, so just how does he have my money again? I just get annoyed by you in general, and the fact you compare guns to pencils in your signature yet justify these ridiculous contraptions is beyond me.
I don't see it as any different than tape, rosin, changeable sole shoes, thumb slugs or a knee brace. People should use whatever they can that's legal to bowl better.
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And you're just not intelligent enough to understand my signature line.
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And you're just not intelligent enough to understand my signature line.
Im not intelligent? Yet you start a sentence with "And"? If you are going to call out people and their intelligence, id make sure you passed a high school English course.
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Maybe you need to check your rules of English professor
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Your dad should have finished on your moms chin instead of inside her.
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Thatta boy, nothing but class