BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: L3nn0n on March 04, 2015, 03:59:04 PM
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Here is the link:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_s_doZ001uY
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Thanks for sharing. Good video.
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My initial thought is that the theme will be to control the lane (especially early) with regard to some hyper wet/dry. Short"er" pattern in team with some good volume and flat on a brand new lane surface.
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That team pattern is going to be tough, shorter and more volume, and flatter overall. Not to say good teams won't find ways to hit it but i'm not expecting as many to hit as did last year.
I bowl the 14th and 15th, looking forward to it.
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I see a lot of Venom Shocks and Tour Nanos on deck.
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I see a lot of pin down layouts on solid coverstock balls. Have to control the backends for sure with these patterns
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I initially thought it was going to be much more difficult this year, just looking at the patterns. All it's doing is returning a significant advantage to the more skilled players. These patterns can be opened up well. Any time you have predictable, consistent hook in the middle of the lane, all you need to do is create a hook spot outside the track. There is plenty of head oil to let you get a handful at the bottom, and you know it's going to hook, so once you build some friction outside, you should be good to go. Won't be as easy as last year definitely, but I see a lot of potential this year out of patterns that on paper look much tougher than last year.
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I initially thought it was going to be much more difficult this year, just looking at the patterns. All it's doing is returning a significant advantage to the more skilled players. These patterns can be opened up well. Any time you have predictable, consistent hook in the middle of the lane, all you need to do is create a hook spot outside the track. There is plenty of head oil to let you get a handful at the bottom, and you know it's going to hook, so once you build some friction outside, you should be good to go. Won't be as easy as last year definitely, but I see a lot of potential this year out of patterns that on paper look much tougher than last year.
I really think while you are correct that it will bring the advantage to the skilled players the fact that there is quite a bit of volume on a short pattern is going to make for some very interesting transitions. The lack of length is going to cause a lack of hold in the team event when you consider the flatness of the pattern.
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Yes, this is also why I think people are going to be using a LOT weaker equipment than everyone thinks. Use some really aggressive balls to create a track and then go super weak and bump it. You're going to need weak and smooth, with the angles you're going to have to play with the sharp wet/dry from oil to backend, stuff that hooks is going to burn up on the turn and carry is going to be tough. Call me crazy, but I think about game 2 or halfway through it, people may be using urethane. D&S it appears like you'll be able to keep chasing deeper and not have many issues, but Team is going to be the rough shot this year. I know I'll be taking a Supernatural, and I think the Ride might actually be the ball that wins bracket finals this year. Hook potential isn't going to be the key this year, controlling the backend transition will be. I bet you see people having success with everything from the Crux to urethane this year, don't really think there's going to be an "it" ball like there usually is.
I initially thought it was going to be much more difficult this year, just looking at the patterns. All it's doing is returning a significant advantage to the more skilled players. These patterns can be opened up well. Any time you have predictable, consistent hook in the middle of the lane, all you need to do is create a hook spot outside the track. There is plenty of head oil to let you get a handful at the bottom, and you know it's going to hook, so once you build some friction outside, you should be good to go. Won't be as easy as last year definitely, but I see a lot of potential this year out of patterns that on paper look much tougher than last year.
I really think while you are correct that it will bring the advantage to the skilled players the fact that there is quite a bit of volume on a short pattern is going to make for some very interesting transitions. The lack of length is going to cause a lack of hold in the team event when you consider the flatness of the pattern.
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You and I seem to be on the exact same page, I'm going in almost a guinea pig (bowl the 14-15) I'll post up a pretty detailed report on what mistakes I made and what I saw as I did last year. Hopefully people can learn from my experiences, I just don't have anywhere near the expectations that I did the past two years for scoring already, but you never know.
I also have a group practice session this Saturday at a local house that has a flex machine and ice oil so hopefully I'll get a little clarity from that as well.
Yes, this is also why I think people are going to be using a LOT weaker equipment than everyone thinks. Use some really aggressive balls to create a track and then go super weak and bump it. You're going to need weak and smooth, with the angles you're going to have to play with the sharp wet/dry from oil to backend, stuff that hooks is going to burn up on the turn and carry is going to be tough. Call me crazy, but I think about game 2 or halfway through it, people may be using urethane. D&S it appears like you'll be able to keep chasing deeper and not have many issues, but Team is going to be the rough shot this year. I know I'll be taking a Supernatural, and I think the Ride might actually be the ball that wins bracket finals this year. Hook potential isn't going to be the key this year, controlling the backend transition will be. I bet you see people having success with everything from the Crux to urethane this year, don't really think there's going to be an "it" ball like there usually is.
I initially thought it was going to be much more difficult this year, just looking at the patterns. All it's doing is returning a significant advantage to the more skilled players. These patterns can be opened up well. Any time you have predictable, consistent hook in the middle of the lane, all you need to do is create a hook spot outside the track. There is plenty of head oil to let you get a handful at the bottom, and you know it's going to hook, so once you build some friction outside, you should be good to go. Won't be as easy as last year definitely, but I see a lot of potential this year out of patterns that on paper look much tougher than last year.
I really think while you are correct that it will bring the advantage to the skilled players the fact that there is quite a bit of volume on a short pattern is going to make for some very interesting transitions. The lack of length is going to cause a lack of hold in the team event when you consider the flatness of the pattern.
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Double post, but here is Riggs blog https://www.11thframe.com/news/article/7308 on the patterns.
Great insight from a very experienced and unbiased Eagle winner.
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Very good article. I still think the pattern can be opened up nicely, but it's going to take all 10 people on a pair doing it the right way like he says. I think the score that wins team is higher than he says, but not by much. Create a track, get on top of it with weak stuff, and beat the pocket. Don't try to carry, don't try to create entry angle, hit the pocket and pick up easy spares. 1800 this year is going to be impressive, this is going to be a grind it out year. You shoot 200 every game and you're going to win some serious bracket money.
Double post, but here is Riggs blog https://www.11thframe.com/news/article/7308 on the patterns.
Great insight from a very experienced and unbiased Eagle winner.
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was on the team pattern tonight.
1.6-1 ratio
tough pattern, plays from multiple angles
no matter where you play, you have to be soft and hit your target
very little miss room IMO
ball surface is very important
it seems like the condition is very release sensitive from what i saw tonight
the good teams will excel as usual
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IMO....with the shorter patterns and increased volume; this may be a time where throwing plastic up the middle to create hold may be better than trying to carve up the track. If we are already going to have hook; then why try to create more hook? Why would we not try and create some hold area? If team is 10 minutes practice; spend the first 5-7 minutes throwing plastic and then switch to your normal strike ball for the last few minutes.
If I go out there this year; that is going to be the plan of attack I am going to talk my team into doing. Thing is; I wont be going until the first weekend in June. So I wouldnt be able to go out and bowl and then share my experience on here to really give most of everyone on here an idea as to how that will work out.
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Good luck with that. The pattern is too short for that to work with the little bit of time there is for practice. There won't be as much hook as you think with 27 ml on a new lane surface.
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Good luck with that. The pattern is too short for that to work with the little bit of time there is for practice. There won't be as much hook as you think with 27 ml on a new lane surface.
I was thinking the Same thing....
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I do not see a lot of people using urethane, but definately see people balling down. I see a lot of people getting tricked though at first seeing the sharp movement in the backend during practice and then balling down only to have problems with carrydown. It should play pretty close to Masters patterns which can be played at all angles.
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Like itsallaboutme said, new surface, heavy oil up front, you're going to get really easy push, PLUS they're using Ice, you're going to need friction to throw at or to get the ball moving earlier, plus something smooth to blend out the transition. It may not be sharp, small misses left may not jump, but it's going to go high. I suppose it depends on where you like your miss room. I'd rather know I've got friction to throw at, and on this pattern, there isn't going to be much. Misses right will be gone, and misses left will simply overhook. This is a pattern that will force physical mistakes. One goes a little right and doesn't make it back, you grab the next one, rev it harder, or get soft with your speed and it goes high. It's one of those patterns where a lot of shots look like they might be ok right until the end where the ball either goes a bit high or doesn't quite make it back.
Like I said before, angle will not be your friend unless you're Pete Weber. Tight angles, staying close to the pocket with something really smooth, hook isn't something I think you really want much of, just want enough to give you enough punch on the backend to kick 10s out. Burn a track, go to something weak and stay on top of the burn. Trying to go with too much hook will just cause problems, because misses left will definitely hook, but as heavy as it is in the front, you aren't going to have the miss room right that you may think. You miss a little right early and I don't care how aggressive the ball is, it won't make it back. I think a lot of people will definitely overthink their options. Too many people will try to create angle on the backend and I think that's exactly what's going to hurt them.
IMO....with the shorter patterns and increased volume; this may be a time where throwing plastic up the middle to create hold may be better than trying to carve up the track. If we are already going to have hook; then why try to create more hook? Why would we not try and create some hold area? If team is 10 minutes practice; spend the first 5-7 minutes throwing plastic and then switch to your normal strike ball for the last few minutes.
If I go out there this year; that is going to be the plan of attack I am going to talk my team into doing. Thing is; I wont be going until the first weekend in June. So I wouldnt be able to go out and bowl and then share my experience on here to really give most of everyone on here an idea as to how that will work out.
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Like itsallaboutme said, new surface, heavy oil up front, you're going to get really easy push, PLUS they're using Ice, you're going to need friction to throw at or to get the ball moving earlier, plus something smooth to blend out the transition. It may not be sharp, small misses left may not jump, but it's going to go high. I suppose it depends on where you like your miss room. I'd rather know I've got friction to throw at, and on this pattern, there isn't going to be much. Misses right will be gone, and misses left will simply overhook. This is a pattern that will force physical mistakes. One goes a little right and doesn't make it back, you grab the next one, rev it harder, or get soft with your speed and it goes high. It's one of those patterns where a lot of shots look like they might be ok right until the end where the ball either goes a bit high or doesn't quite make it back.
Like I said before, angle will not be your friend unless you're Pete Weber. Tight angles, staying close to the pocket with something really smooth, hook isn't something I think you really want much of, just want enough to give you enough punch on the backend to kick 10s out. Burn a track, go to something weak and stay on top of the burn. Trying to go with too much hook will just cause problems, because misses left will definitely hook, but as heavy as it is in the front, you aren't going to have the miss room right that you may think. You miss a little right early and I don't care how aggressive the ball is, it won't make it back. I think a lot of people will definitely overthink their options. Too many people will try to create angle on the backend and I think that's exactly what's going to hurt them.
IMO....with the shorter patterns and increased volume; this may be a time where throwing plastic up the middle to create hold may be better than trying to carve up the track. If we are already going to have hook; then why try to create more hook? Why would we not try and create some hold area? If team is 10 minutes practice; spend the first 5-7 minutes throwing plastic and then switch to your normal strike ball for the last few minutes.
If I go out there this year; that is going to be the plan of attack I am going to talk my team into doing. Thing is; I wont be going until the first weekend in June. So I wouldnt be able to go out and bowl and then share my experience on here to really give most of everyone on here an idea as to how that will work out.
I see what you all are saying. I am not saying to do that so we can move in to 4th arrow and throw it out to 5-6-7. I think a lot also depends on who you are bowling with. If most of the guys are rev rates less than 325, then I agree with breaking down the outside. But if you have a team with a couple 500+ rev rates; they should be able to create motion anyway from the track area. SO I would think you would want your miss room inside to create hold.
The team I would be going out with is a combination of styles. We have a couple down and inners and a couple with 500 rev rates; including myself. I plan on taking 1 skid/flip piece for if I need to move way in. Other than that; I plan on taking a Deep Freeze and a Arson Low Flare Solid. My plan is to go straighter with my angles.
I averaged 210 over the first 12 years out there. The one year I got caught up in the "stay to the right and break them down"; I proceeded to shoot 1500 AE because I could not control my breakpoint and that was even using an Enigma at 2000 abralon. I am not doing that again. That was a major learning lesson for me. I tried to do the "right thing" and it didnt work.
Yes they are using the Ice oil and on a fresh lane surface. BUT......it is 38 feet which means there is 22 feet of dry backends. I believe there is plenty of friction on the backend as long as you dont throw it 22 mph. My release is around 18mph but can drop it down to 16 pretty easily if I need to. My pro shop guy says with that length of pattern; he would not be surprised if at some point people are going to use urethane.
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I fully expect people to be throwing urethane too, but not because it's going to be dry. I'm talking about burning up the track around 10, and then using urethane to play straight over the top of it or just bumping it a bit. Deeper than 3rd arrow too early is going to cause problems. There IS going to be plenty of friction, but in places that it's going to cause problems. If you miss right early, it's not coming back, period. If you miss in a bit, it's going to hook. You're going to need some extra friction to the right, the pattern is just super tight laterally.
Like itsallaboutme said, new surface, heavy oil up front, you're going to get really easy push, PLUS they're using Ice, you're going to need friction to throw at or to get the ball moving earlier, plus something smooth to blend out the transition. It may not be sharp, small misses left may not jump, but it's going to go high. I suppose it depends on where you like your miss room. I'd rather know I've got friction to throw at, and on this pattern, there isn't going to be much. Misses right will be gone, and misses left will simply overhook. This is a pattern that will force physical mistakes. One goes a little right and doesn't make it back, you grab the next one, rev it harder, or get soft with your speed and it goes high. It's one of those patterns where a lot of shots look like they might be ok right until the end where the ball either goes a bit high or doesn't quite make it back.
Like I said before, angle will not be your friend unless you're Pete Weber. Tight angles, staying close to the pocket with something really smooth, hook isn't something I think you really want much of, just want enough to give you enough punch on the backend to kick 10s out. Burn a track, go to something weak and stay on top of the burn. Trying to go with too much hook will just cause problems, because misses left will definitely hook, but as heavy as it is in the front, you aren't going to have the miss room right that you may think. You miss a little right early and I don't care how aggressive the ball is, it won't make it back. I think a lot of people will definitely overthink their options. Too many people will try to create angle on the backend and I think that's exactly what's going to hurt them.
IMO....with the shorter patterns and increased volume; this may be a time where throwing plastic up the middle to create hold may be better than trying to carve up the track. If we are already going to have hook; then why try to create more hook? Why would we not try and create some hold area? If team is 10 minutes practice; spend the first 5-7 minutes throwing plastic and then switch to your normal strike ball for the last few minutes.
If I go out there this year; that is going to be the plan of attack I am going to talk my team into doing. Thing is; I wont be going until the first weekend in June. So I wouldnt be able to go out and bowl and then share my experience on here to really give most of everyone on here an idea as to how that will work out.
I see what you all are saying. I am not saying to do that so we can move in to 4th arrow and throw it out to 5-6-7. I think a lot also depends on who you are bowling with. If most of the guys are rev rates less than 325, then I agree with breaking down the outside. But if you have a team with a couple 500+ rev rates; they should be able to create motion anyway from the track area. SO I would think you would want your miss room inside to create hold.
The team I would be going out with is a combination of styles. We have a couple down and inners and a couple with 500 rev rates; including myself. I plan on taking 1 skid/flip piece for if I need to move way in. Other than that; I plan on taking a Deep Freeze and a Arson Low Flare Solid. My plan is to go straighter with my angles.
I averaged 210 over the first 12 years out there. The one year I got caught up in the "stay to the right and break them down"; I proceeded to shoot 1500 AE because I could not control my breakpoint and that was even using an Enigma at 2000 abralon. I am not doing that again. That was a major learning lesson for me. I tried to do the "right thing" and it didnt work.
Yes they are using the Ice oil and on a fresh lane surface. BUT......it is 38 feet which means there is 22 feet of dry backends. I believe there is plenty of friction on the backend as long as you dont throw it 22 mph. My release is around 18mph but can drop it down to 16 pretty easily if I need to. My pro shop guy says with that length of pattern; he would not be surprised if at some point people are going to use urethane.
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People may use urethane. The people on the leader boards won't. Good bowlers know how to control the change of direction of their ball and 38 feet isn't short enough to force them into balls that weak.
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Urethane usually only works if you can go very straight and avoid too much carrydown. I think the carrydown will kill urethane on that pattern. Not bowling it this year, but if I was I would look at playing up about 8 on the fresh with my IQ. At 38 feet I still see a transition in. This is the kind of pattern that has caused the tour guys to all go up the back of the ball.
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look at it like this:
amount of volume tells you how strong of a ball to use.
Length of pattern tells you where to play.
whatever your ball choice is, it has to be smoother rolling IMO
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Good points. I think our house shot is 38 feet, is much drier, and I usually use pretty strong equipment. Plus we use Defy instead of Ice, Defy plays drier. Really depends on how sharp the transition is. Plenty enough oil to stay relaxed and focus on your release without having to worry about getting it down the lane. Getting ahead of myself I think.
Something else I hadn't quite thought through, with that volume, you could have all 10 players working together and it would take all of practice and most likely the entire first game to burn a usable track. Seems like the crafty devils at USBC are hoping to lessen the effect of strategy and putting a premium on shotmaking this year.
Unfortunately I think I'm going to have a hard time simulating the shot. We have a machine capable of laying it down, but our surface is high friction, and Defy plays pretty dry also. Shots here are usually playable 3-4 boards right of where they play most other places. Straight up 7 on Mexico City here is a pretty good line . .
Won't know much until the first live stream on Sunday. Not being in Reno throws a wrench in there too, everything plays pretty similar in Reno.
People may use urethane. The people on the leader boards won't. Good bowlers know how to control the change of direction of their ball and 38 feet isn't short enough to force them into balls that weak.
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i had these pieces to pick from
pin under - legacy tour edition (low diff ball)
pin under EP hybrid - 1000 + polish
Gamebreaker 2 - pin in middle finger
Columbia Delirium - pin under bridge (left at OBB)
all were playable to some extent
during practice afterwards, the EP hybrid at its current finish was the smoothest up front and the least amount of transition off the pattern, pretty smooth
the GB2 was also very smooth rolling off the pattern, think that one is at 3000 with some lane shine
no matter what ball used, miss room is non-existent if you miss in
there is some miss room out, as long as you don't miss out early
shot making is definitely at a premium, your release also has to be very good every time
We had a 300 in game 3 last night, they started out and struggled game 1, game 2 & 3 opened up nicely on that pair
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I have a team practice session at my local house, kegel machine, ice oil. Only big difference is lane surface being a little higher friction compared to what they will have in El Paso. Will be nice to just practice on something flat for a while.
Taking a whole bunch of equipment with (got 8 in my truck and have room for more lol)
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I am thinking a weak core and weak cover. I believe there will be a lot of hook. I am practicing on the pattern tomorrow.
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Pattern is flatter, but ball doesn't seem to boom off the end of the oil as much on ice. At 38 feet I think you will have free hook for a few shots in practice, but the outside will tighten down a bunch real quickly. With 7 loads 2 to 2, urethane isn't going to work for very long outside. The pattern can probably be attacked from multiple angles depending on style, but stay direct. Last year was by far the longest pattern ever used at 43 feet. It was also the only year that you could make use of the hold a bit. 39 feet has been more common over the years, so 38 feet isn't that much shorter. Biggest problem is always with guys getting too deep and blowing up the middles right away.
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I am thinking a weak core and weak cover. I believe there will be a lot of hook. I am practicing on the pattern tomorrow.
Your name better be Jason Belmonte using this strategy.
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Pattern is flatter, but ball doesn't seem to boom off the end of the oil as much on ice. At 38 feet I think you will have free hook for a few shots in practice, but the outside will tighten down a bunch real quickly. With 7 loads 2 to 2, urethane isn't going to work for very long outside. The pattern can probably be attacked from multiple angles depending on style, but stay direct. Last year was by far the longest pattern ever used at 43 feet. It was also the only year that you could make use of the hold a bit. 39 feet has been more common over the years, so 38 feet isn't that much shorter. Biggest problem is always with guys getting too deep and blowing up the middles right away.
Natural reaction of the the typical meathead is to go to shiny stuff and move left too early.
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After watching the stream yesterday, there is TONS of hook everywhere. Guys were getting stuff back from the 3 board if they threw it right.
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I didn't get a chance to catch this, who was bowling on the stream? Thanks.
After watching the stream yesterday, there is TONS of hook everywhere. Guys were getting stuff back from the 3 board if they threw it right.
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I practiced on the team pattern yesterday. There is a lot of hook. One individual played out, but he did not have a consistent reaction. That was due to his inconsistent release. Any flaws in your release or variation in speed will show up.
We were able to use stronger balls than I anticipated. The balls that were shined were not as good as those balls that had the shine knocked off.
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No one of note. There are a couple guys that throw it decent, but most of them were wildly inconsistent and hard to get a read on. Now, as expected, everything from hook monsters to mid range stuff all looked playable.
I didn't get a chance to catch this, who was bowling on the stream? Thanks.
After watching the stream yesterday, there is TONS of hook everywhere. Guys were getting stuff back from the 3 board if they threw it right.
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Going to need SOME surface to get the ball into the hook phase before it hits the end of the pattern and to smooth out the transition. I still feel like the IQ Tour Nano at box is going to be a great choice this year.
I practiced on the team pattern yesterday. There is a lot of hook. One individual played out, but he did not have a consistent reaction. That was due to his inconsistent release. Any flaws in your release or variation in speed will show up.
We were able to use stronger balls than I anticipated. The balls that were shined were not as good as those balls that had the shine knocked off.
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surface will be your friend on this type of pattern.....