BallReviews

General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: kendog on March 09, 2004, 09:17:27 PM

Title: 300 survey
Post by: kendog on March 09, 2004, 09:17:27 PM

Someone recently told me that 300 games were as rare as perfect games pitched in baseball. I'm curious if that is really true.

I'd bowled for 10 yrs I guess before I got my first this season. I ave. 203 this year.

How many bowlers with a similar ave and career length have not had one yet? I guess what I want to know is it really that rare, even today with all our high powered equipment? I know guys who are not very good at all fundamentally that have perfect games and carry inflated aves on the easy house shot.
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kendog
avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes

Edited on 3/10/2004 1:18 PM

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: Ernie McCracken on March 10, 2004, 12:21:40 PM

Here's a sad but true fact.  I've been in bowling for 25 or so years and average 220+ but I've never shot a sanctioned 300.  I have, however, shot them in practice but that doesn't mean much.  At least I know I can shoot them.
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Evolutionary.  Revolutionary.

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: Goof1073 on March 10, 2004, 12:24:34 PM

It's actually correct that a 300 games happens with less frequency than a perfect game in baseball.  I remember when one of the more recent ABC bowling magazines came in there was a thread on here that broke down the number of people who bowl in ABC leagues.  Given that information and the fact that ~45K 300's were thrown last year another person broke down the number of games per 300 or people who threw 300 or something and the ratio was smaller than perfect games.

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: pin-chaser on March 10, 2004, 12:32:55 PM

30+ years bowling... 27 x 300 games.... 20 after the advent of resin (4 this year and counting)

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: Squirrel Pudding on March 10, 2004, 12:37:06 PM

Our house went up in the 1950's. Since then there have been five 300s rolled in it by three different people. First one in either 96 or 97.

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: 9andaWiggle on March 10, 2004, 12:40:46 PM

I've seen a lot more 300's bowled than I've seen perfect games pitched...

No, I don't have 300 yet, but in little league I pitched 5 perfect innings before the relief guy gave up the game. (I ran out of innings - the league I played in limited the # of innings per week one could pitch) I have no doubt I could have finished them off the last inning as well!

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9~

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: TWOHAND834 on March 10, 2004, 12:43:59 PM

I have been bowling for 20 years.  I shot my first sanctioned 300 in 1994. I now have 42 sanctioned.  They always say that the first is the hardest and they get easier after that.  Alot of times, completing the task is all mental.  You get through the front 6 and the first thought is "half way home".  Once you get to the front 8, then the next thought is, "one more please to set up the tenth frame".  I still get caught up thinking too much at times, like last week.  I had the front 8 and all I could think about was get the one in the ninth to set me up for the tenth.  There was a little more riding on it this time because a teammate also had the front 9.  I wanted to see both of us shoot 300 the same game.  The topic here is, "How rare are 300 games?"  Well, I was thinking, "How rare is it to have teammates shoot 300 the same game?"  Truth is, neither one of us shot it.  He had the front 10 before a nasty wiggling 7 pin cost him for 289.  I got to the last ball before a stubborn light 4 pin cost me for 299.  I do not consider 300s to be rare.  But, they still are not easy, because even with todays stronger equipment, you still need a little luck on your side.
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: mumzie on March 10, 2004, 01:39:47 PM

I have no doubt that we see more 300s than perfect games, simply because we all see a LOT more games bowled per week than we see baseball games.
Think about it. a 12 team league, 4 people per team, 3 games - 144 games.

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: kalannar on March 10, 2004, 01:41:37 PM

I've been bowling since I was old enough to throw a ball. All though I am not as good as a lot of people, I do average around 200 wherever I am at. I am now 31 and have never shot a 300. I have shot 3 279's in the last 3 years (2 in the same set). But I have not been able to complete the string. I almost shot an 800 before my 300 (279, 236, 279, 794) and people say that is harder to get. I am still trying to get there but I have a bad habit of turning the ball to early and leaving a 10 pin some where in the middle of the game. Oh well, There's always next week.

Kalannar
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That which does not kill us strengthens us.

So do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

Unless of course you are armed with a bomb. A Black Cherry Bomb that is.

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: Phillip Marlowe on March 10, 2004, 06:06:44 PM

The comparison is misleading.  You would have to include little league, fast pitch softball, youth ball and school ball of all stripes, all the professional and semi-pro games played and then compare the frequency.  I think if you did that, the statistics might be somewhat different.
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"I don't mind if you don't like my manners. I don't like them myself. They're pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings."

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: TOON on March 10, 2004, 11:49:27 PM

I own my own center.  I started bowling JR league at age 5.  My Dad owns the center I started at and my Grandfather owned it before him, so any time in my life, if I wanted to bowl, I did.  I did not get a 300 until 1995 in another center.  I did have several 279's and a couple of 280's.  I did finally get one at Dad's place in 1998, first one there in over 13 years and only one of 4 in 44 years of buisness.  The oil pattern has not changed hardly at all over the years making it very challenging.  At my center though, past operators have spoiled my coustomers with easier conditions and if they have a bad night, it's not THEM, it MUST be the lanes (or the guy running the lane machine).  This is the same debate all across the entire bowling industry has been facing since lane blocking and oil pattern manipulation was discovered.  As a proprietor, I want my customers to bowl well, but it has cost the game it's integrety.  In most instances, if you tell someone that you know someone or saw someone bowl a perfect game, they assume the lane did the work.  But, as a bowler, I know you still have to have good nerves to do it.  I have 3 sanctioned 300's and I was nearly as nervous the third time as the first time, but it was easier.  Like anything else you do, the more you do it, and do it well, the easier it gets.  I do think easier oil patterns and resin/particle balls have made the game too easy.  I would LOVE to see either an all plastic or all urethane (with not more than 1/4oz side/finger weights allowed and not more than 1000 grit sandings) league!!!!!!!  Let that seperate the men from the wanna B's!!!  If we proprietors take away the easy oil patterns, we will have a LOT less bowling centers.  Damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
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TOON
The one, the original, TOON!

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: MSC2471 on March 11, 2004, 12:48:30 AM

Bowler for 29 plus years- bowled competitively in leagues since the age of 6 and I've yet to throw a 300 game. My high game is a 290 bowled October 1990 in Newburgh, NY during a college conference match that I missed the bus to and had to make a 3 1/2 hour drive from Winchendon, MA to there (talk about dedication...and I beat the team van there by an hour). I've had numerous 270+ games, but rarely have strung more than 8 strikes in a row to start a game.

I've had 6 series in the 790's through the years.

Matt

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: jensm on March 11, 2004, 02:29:23 AM

15 full seasons in the last 30 years. 203 average. Still haven't rolled a sanctioned 300.

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Regards,

jensm

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: Strider on March 11, 2004, 01:00:42 PM

I bowled about 15 years as an adult before my first in 1999.  I think I was averaging about 203 at the time.  Had a bit of a gap and started to wonder if it was a fluke.  I had one during last summer league (sanctioned), and 2 so far this winter.  My first time with 11 in a row resulted in a 297 (nose).  I've managed to get all ten every time since then.
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Penn State Proud

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: Steven on March 11, 2004, 01:29:53 PM

I rolled my fourth sanctioned 300 last night . Given that there are so many ways for a perfect game to be screwed up on good shots (different taps -- 8 pin, 9 pin, 7 pin; ringing 10's, etc.), it's still an accomplishment. In my Wednesday scratch league with a median average of 210, about 4800 total games have been thrown, and only five of those have been perfect.

It's really not unusual for higher average THB's to not have a sanctioned 300. One of my teammates is a solid 220 average player, and he doesn't have one yet. He has more 279's and 280's than he can count, but no brass ring yet.

There is no shame in not having tossed the perfect score. It's not as easy as many would make it sound.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: s1nger1 on March 11, 2004, 01:35:39 PM

Have been bowling 12 years no 300's. I have had the chance every so often. I either screw it up are leave a pin sonewhere on a pocket shot. I know I can do it I have thrown 18 in a row twice this year. I have averages between 194-220 over the last 10 years.

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: bennett on March 11, 2004, 02:04:25 PM

I had 300(5x), 299(2x), 298, 297, 295, 290 in non-sanction play before I bowled my first sanctioned 300 this year.  

What is worse is that I must of had 270+ 200 times (I'm estimating at least this much as there were times I shot 4 and 5 270+ games in 1 week) in my life (sanctioned and non-sanction play) before I finally bowled a sanctioned 300.  I would always get a tap or two somewhere in the game to prevent me from hitting that sanctioned 300.  

My high average so far this year is 223, series 785 sanctioned.  


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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.  

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: cpo_bee on March 11, 2004, 02:13:16 PM

I have been bowling for 39 years (since the age of six).  Average 203 in a house where the highest average is 212.  I have NO sanctioned 300s.  I have a 290 and have had too many 279's to count.  This year I have had a 279 - 9 pin, 276 - bucket, and 2 268's.

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: perfecone on March 11, 2004, 03:17:28 PM

great topic.....I have been a 200 bowler for almost 20 years. started bowling about 1975, first 300 was in 1988, then 2 more in 4 years.....and nothing since....I think I have crossed over the hill...literally. barely a sniff in to years, but still good averages overall.  plenty of 240+ gMES JUST NO LONG STRINGS FROM THE 1ST FRAME.  I started thinking that my 300 ship has sailed, and I ve accepted it  although I would really like one of the new 300 rings, that have the 300 on the top, they didnt offer that last time I got one.  I also have never had an 800, 780's twice.  800 is defeinatly much harder and way more rare......my 2 cents
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any day bowling is a good day

stikes can win the game but spares can win the tournament

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: joegunn on March 11, 2004, 08:23:52 PM

According to the ABC stats, there were 1,635,316 ABC Members in 2002-2003.  Assuming every member bowled only 3 games per week, and all leagues were 34 weeks, that's 166,802,232 games bowled.  Of those games, there were 44,937 perfect games.  Based on those stats, my measly 2 (one with urethane in 1997  and one with particle in 2000) don't sound so bad.

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 12, 2004, 09:51:24 AM

Saw are YOU SURE Ben Hogan never had a hole in one?

I'm not!

Fred Couples only had two at one time awhile back but that was almost inconceivable due to his iron accuracy.

The statistic is that 300 games are rarer than perfect games in professional baseball is a poor analogy but maybe a correct statistic.

Why, simply because so many bowlers are virtually incapable of throwing one!
I can think of many leagues that I watch that no one in the league could ever throw one except by the fact that pure flukes DO happen.

Other leagues I watch a 300 is threatened every night.  High scoring conditions and great bowlers make a 300 game not thrown just a matter of bad carry.

Last night I saw the highest series personally I've ever witnessed.
825, by a righty no less!  His games 279, 279, 267.  WOW.  300, 300, 267 would have been nice too.  No 300s in house but several threatened obviously!

I believe the stats would be more accurately kept regarding scratch leagues and then 300 games would be listed as being much more frequent than perfect games in major league baseball, and maybe more frequent than just the ordinary ho hum no hitter.  I wouldn't be surprised if there frequency would fall between no hitters and shut outs in the major leagues if we only looked at scratch leagues.

REgards,

Luckylefty

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: kendog on March 12, 2004, 10:09:42 AM

It's not the actual total number being considered here, it's the ratio of perfect games over the total number of games bowled/pitched. I don't know how you could account for non-sanctioned games. You would have to include all recreational bowling then in your ratio. By the way, that would undoubtedly make the perfect game much MORE rare, because of the elevated number of total games included.
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kendog
avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 12, 2004, 10:18:58 AM

Ken,

I understood perfectly how the statistic was calculated.

However we are comparing a very unskilled group(all bowlers), versus a highly skilled group(major league pitchers).

I believe by adding in all those millions of bowlers who can't average 170 or 180 one is not being fair to bowlers.  In my mind I can conceive of a high % of major league starters as having the ability to throw a perfect game.  I can conceive of an even higher % of + 200 bowlers who can throw 300(nearly all).

so

The statistic that I think would be a more equal comparison would be.

   300 games in scratch leagues.......... perfect games in majors
....------------------------------   =  ---------------------------
   all games in scratch leagues.......... all games in majors

I don't believe they are that rare in high level leagues with a 10 to 10 pattern.

REgards,

Luckylefty

REgards,

Luckylefty

Edited on 3/12/2004 11:14 AM

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: Goof1073 on March 12, 2004, 11:14:12 AM

I you were going to totally compare the two I agree that you would have to add in little league, college, etc. baseball and yaba, women's bowling, etc. too.  But looking at just ABC versus Professional Baseball you get this...

Taking JoeGunn's total of worst case numbers for games bowled (as these don't factor in people bowling multiple leagues, summer leagues, tournaments) then you would get a perfect 300 game every 3712 games bowled.  You also have to consider that 300's weren't as easy over the years and bowling as a whole has dropped in number of participants.

Now Baseball on the other had has gone up in the number of teams over the years.  But if you took the 30 current teams and their 162 regular season games and assumed that you had the same number of teams / games dating back to the 1876 when George Bradley had the first No-No.  Then there were 273 no-no's recorded since then.  So over the coarse of 128 years there would be a No-No every 2278th game pitched.  

So if you compare a 300 game (which we all know can be lucky, etc.) to No-No's a 300 game is more rare.

But since there have only been around 18 perfect games in baseball...a perfect game is more rare than a 300 based on the assumptions listed above.

Edited on 3/12/2004 12:09 PM

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: kendog on March 12, 2004, 11:47:38 AM

How about if you go the other way a bit? Compare only 300 games thrown by pros during professional tournament conditions to pro perfect games pitched in MLB.
That to me would be the only really decent comparison. Many scratch leagues are shot on easy house shots too, not just hacker leagues.
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kendog
avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes

Title: Re: 300 survey
Post by: stanski on March 12, 2004, 11:35:19 PM

i threw 4 no hitters and one perfect game in my hs baseball career so far. no 300 games even though im a better bowler then pitcher
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stanski

Edited on 3/13/2004 0:31 AM