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Author Topic: Curious about PAP's  (Read 1738 times)

Gazoo

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Curious about PAP's
« on: August 12, 2008, 12:32:09 AM »
All bowlers have a unique PAP much like a fingerprint since most bowlers use the same release all the time. But can bowlers who change their release while bowling instead of say making ball changes, can they have different PAP's. Say bowler A decides to go from throwing alot of side rotation to alot of forward roll during a set, does this change his PAP and how does that effect the ball he is thowing that is set up for his normal side rotation shot which his PAP was measured from. Just curious about PAP and release changes. Thanks for any input.
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JohnP

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Re: Curious about PAP's
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2008, 12:16:27 PM »
quote:
That's partially correct. Changing your tilt changes your PAP. Changing rotation alone does not.


For the majority of bowlers changing the tilt does NOT change the PAP location as measured from grip center.  It does change the diameter of the track and where the PAP is orientated as the ball is thrown (0 degrees of tilt - full roller -, the PAP would be at the equator of the ball, 90 degrees of tilt it would be directly on top of the ball).  --  JohnP
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janderson

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Re: Curious about PAP's
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2008, 01:18:36 PM »
quote:
quote:
That's partially correct. Changing your tilt changes your PAP. Changing rotation alone does not.


For the majority of bowlers changing the tilt does NOT change the PAP location as measured from grip center.  It does change the diameter of the track and where the PAP is orientated as the ball is thrown (0 degrees of tilt - full roller -, the PAP would be at the equator of the ball, 90 degrees of tilt it would be directly on top of the ball).  --  JohnP


With purely 0 degrees of rotation, this is true.  Any truly academic reader with a firm grasp of the concepts involved would note from my examples that the axis point on either the tire or the top doesn't change. However, once rotation varies from zero, even if rotation stays constant, any change in tilt will cause a change in rotational axis point. For example, as the spinning top slows down, it starts to wobble. Once it starts to wobble the "pole" of the top is no longer the axis point. The rotation of the top hasn't changed, but the tilt has.

Edited on 8/14/2008 1:20 PM
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Re: Curious about PAP's
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2008, 03:34:39 PM »
quote:
quote:
If I put a piece of white tape on my PAP and change my release to stay behind the ball more, the piece of tape still doesn't move, which leaves me to believe that my PAP hasn't changed with the different release.


Bingo!  I stand behind my earlier post.  acvar, have you ever checked as Dan describes or are you just stating an opinion?  --  JohnP


My straight release is 6 3/4 over by 1/4 up, yes it goes thump thump thump down the lane.  My normal strike release is 5 7/8 over by 7/8 up.  I can get it to the neighborhood of 5 over by 1 1/4 up without too much trouble.  I have a student that is in the neighborhood of 3 3/4 over for his normal release, and is 6 3/4 over on his straight release.  For the average bowler as they change their axis rotation they change their axis tilt also, and for the average bowler as they change their axis tilt they also change their PAP.  Generally as your rotation increases so does your tilt, and as your tilt decreases your up/down axis on the PAP gets closer to 0.  That is not to say that this is true for everybody, but it is the norm.
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JohnP

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Re: Curious about PAP's
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2008, 11:26:08 AM »
I'm done arguing, we'll just have to agree to disagree.  --  John
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Oskuposer

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Re: Curious about PAP's
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2008, 01:00:59 PM »
Axis migration  duh but that also affects the Mass Bias in a ball
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Kiall Hill
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janderson

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Re: Curious about PAP's
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2008, 01:04:19 PM »
quote:
I'm done arguing, we'll just have to agree to disagree.  --  John


I'm not sure we disagree, I think we may just be using different terminology in attempting to say the same thing. My guess is that if we were standing side by side with a ball, quarter scale, and a grease pencil, we'd find agreement.
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Edited on 8/15/2008 1:06 PM
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janderson

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Re: Curious about PAP's
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2008, 01:08:58 PM »
quote:
For the majority of bowlers changing the tilt does NOT change the PAP location as measured from grip center.


But the PAP does move, which I believe is information valuable to the original post.


Edited on 8/15/2008 1:12 PM
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