Post by: HamPster on September 20, 2003, 04:53:01 AM
--------------------
HAH! I don't know ANYBODY now!
Being in adult leagues teaches you many things.
1. You're not on top anymore, but there are a lot more people that suck worse than you do now.
2. The myth about the youths having an easier shot is NOT TRUE. I'd have an entire ring collection if it was.
3. Drunk adults are a lot funnier than drunk youths.
Post by: Strider on September 20, 2003, 08:19:45 PM
Anyway... Without knowing you personally, I would guess that your two biggest problems are trying to many changes (pitches, spans...) too fast and you're a perfectionist. You also seem to be very hard on yourself. Wouldn't you do the same things when you switched to lefty and your scores counted?
Since you still work in a proshop, at least you can get the ball work done cheaply. Maybe you can do a summer league lefty with just 2-3 balls and see how you score. If you like it, you can change for the following winter. If you still struggle with being over critical of your preformance, at least you'll know where you stand.
--------------------
Penn State Proud ......THB with loft
The bowler (term used very lightly) formerly known as Strider
Post by: HamPster on September 20, 2003, 08:47:28 PM
--------------------
HAH! I don't know ANYBODY now!
Being in adult leagues teaches you many things.
1. You're not on top anymore, but there are a lot more people that suck worse than you do now.
2. The myth about the youths having an easier shot is NOT TRUE. I'd have an entire ring collection if it was.
3. Drunk adults are a lot funnier than drunk youths.
Post by: Rev_O on September 20, 2003, 10:43:47 PM
i only bowl righty now though.
--------------------
Rev-O
Post by: HamPster on September 20, 2003, 11:15:30 PM
--------------------
HAH! I don't know ANYBODY now!
Being in adult leagues teaches you many things.
1. You're not on top anymore, but there are a lot more people that suck worse than you do now.
2. The myth about the youths having an easier shot is NOT TRUE. I'd have an entire ring collection if it was.
3. Drunk adults are a lot funnier than drunk youths.
Post by: CoachJim on September 20, 2003, 11:31:31 PM
1. Are you ambidexterous?
2. Can you do anything else just as good with your left hand, as your right? (keep it clean)
Post by: HamPster on September 20, 2003, 11:57:51 PM
--------------------
HAH! I don't know ANYBODY now!
Being in adult leagues teaches you many things.
1. You're not on top anymore, but there are a lot more people that suck worse than you do now.
2. The myth about the youths having an easier shot is NOT TRUE. I'd have an entire ring collection if it was.
3. Drunk adults are a lot funnier than drunk youths.
Post by: agroves on September 20, 2003, 11:58:34 PM
As for lefty, I practice occasionally. I just throw whatever is handy. I don't have a special ball drilled lefty for myself. I always said that if I shot 900 I would quit bowling righty and go to the Darkside. I believe I could average 160ish right now lefthanded. However, like many others I would have to drop weight for awhile to gain the proper speed and consistency.
--------------------
FUFU
Post by: HamPster on September 21, 2003, 12:05:13 AM
--------------------
HAH! I don't know ANYBODY now!
Being in adult leagues teaches you many things.
1. You're not on top anymore, but there are a lot more people that suck worse than you do now.
2. The myth about the youths having an easier shot is NOT TRUE. I'd have an entire ring collection if it was.
3. Drunk adults are a lot funnier than drunk youths.
Post by: C-G ProShop-Carl on September 21, 2003, 01:20:09 AM
goodluck
Post by: HamPster on September 21, 2003, 01:23:14 AM
--------------------
HAH! I don't know ANYBODY now!
Being in adult leagues teaches you many things.
1. You're not on top anymore, but there are a lot more people that suck worse than you do now.
2. The myth about the youths having an easier shot is NOT TRUE. I'd have an entire ring collection if it was.
3. Drunk adults are a lot funnier than drunk youths.
Post by: Game In a BoxLC on September 21, 2003, 04:11:54 AM
1-its not hard to get side rotation on a ball and keep your elbow in, actually its pretty natural.
2-contrary to what people on this board say its not THAT easy to switch hands.
3-It sounds to me like your game as a right hander is way too mechanical. Too many things must go right in order for the shot to be a success. Before you change your entire game, in essense learning how to bowl all over again, you should attempt to fix what you have now. It will not be easy to switch hands and over a long haul or tournaments you simply will not hold up, and the simple matter is you most likely do not have as much control of your left arm as you do your right.
4-My suggestion. Before you go changing things. Stop worrying about doing this right or that right. Go practice, instead of working on doing this or correcting this or having this happen. Work on this, simplify your game
in Stance, arm to the side of you, small controlled, repeatable pushaway, free loose armswing, open up your hips to push the ball out, get into a knee bend, long and low at the release, and accerate thru. Work on each step progressively, get to each point after mastering one. First start in your stance, do pushaway drills, repeat doing pushaways only, maybe 30-40 times. After this feels natural, go to the next step. All this you don't need to use a ball or even be on a lane to do. This is called muscle memory, it is used by pitchers at the collegiate and proffessional level (trust me i know, i lived them for 2 yrs in college) and they work wonders. Your muscles will learn these movements and repeat them.
This game isn't that hard, it sounds to me like your trying to do too many things or worry about too many things. Your always nitpicking the tiniest detail like sticking, or seeing something in your line of sight. Pick a target, hit it with a compact, simple, basic approach and delivery. You don't need to turn it up, or worry about how much side rotation you are getting or how much ballspeed, worry about it being natural. Like many say on here, perfect your A game before going to B and C.
I went thru the same thing you did. I used to have a huge pushaway, a long sweeping backswing, and just rip the cover off the ball at the bottom of the swing, i had a whole bunch of stutter steps, stops, drifts, etc. and it was just impossible to repeat shots. I was getting ready to quit competitive bowling until i decided to just simplify what i had. Make this game easier, less to worry about, less to go wrong. My average has went up, but more importantly my consistancy is up. I used to be a 279, 155 type bowler. Now almost every game is 180+ i dont have many terrible games, and unless i lose carry or something happens i am within 10 pins of my 220 average. Now i have lost some of the rotation i had, i was about 500-530 rpm, i've backed it down to 400-450 which is plenty, my ballspeed is in control, i am in control, and i can repeat shots meaning i will score on many more conditions.
Just try it, it will take alot of work, but you say you wanna be good at this game, one of the best. It doesn't happen over night and switching to another hand will only make it a harder and prolonged journey. Instead of pouting around and saying i'm terrible, get out there, fix it.
--------------------
am i still considered a lefty, i never get to play the left side of the lane
Post by: CoachJim on September 21, 2003, 07:01:47 AM
The trap is that your opposite side seems to do everything you natural side will not do. That is because your brain knows what to do and your muscle memory is nonexistant on your left side, so it gets programed with the proper info. Now here is where the trap lies, you are pleased with your preformance now, but how about a year or 2 from now when you plateu out around 150 and every pin after that is like it is now going up one pin at a time for years and years. This is because you do not have that feel that you were mentioning in your posts, this will prevent you from ever being able to repeat shots without massive amounts of practice ie 10-15 games/day for years and years to develope it. That feel is not something that is easily developed. I have been bowling for 25+ years and when I video tape myself I am doing the opposite of what it feels like I am doing (which is one of the reasons I suck but that is another post). I would suggest staying with your right hand and get a good coach, and listen to his/her suggestions. If you don't get a coach then get a video camera and video tape yourself.
Work slowly to get the feel of how you want to release the ball. Even if that means spending the whole day at the foul line and perfecting it without the rest of your approach, then do one shot corectly at the foul line then do your full approach with it, then repeat this for 10 shots, then video tape yourself again and see if you are releasing the ball the way you want.
I have been working with Dr. Jeff Briggs and Ron Clifton, they have gotten me out of turning my whole arm around the ball at the release by pointing my fingers to the inside and keeping my thumb outside of my elbow to the release, then extending my fingers through the follow through. This really works, but it took several months to get it down and I still don't do it right all the time.
You have to be patient with yourself, when you practice stick with one thing and do your best to get that one thing down. Be honest with yourself, make yourself repeat your lesson 10 times in a row without mistake and if you do make a mistake you start all over (can't tell you the number of times I got to the 9th shot and flubbed it). This has a two fold method, one to grind in the change you have made and two to do it under the pressure of having to start all over again. When your thumb is blistered and you can't take it any more, you would be suprised how hard you learn to concentrate on that 10th shot.
I have seen people try to bowl opposite handed and quit bowling all together after they realize they were not as good as they thought and were going to have to work even harder than they did with their "NATURAL" side.
Best of Luck to you either way.
Jim
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 21, 2003, 08:45:02 AM
I throw a nice looking ball lefty. Always did.
My first season I averaged 142, I AM not ambidextrous!
I threw a lot of gutters and missed spares all the time.
Now with a LOT of work I've gotten quite a bit better and had a lot of success.
I still after 4 years of doing it religiously have these problems/advantages.
In 4 to 5 man league formats I get out of sync--- (too much waiting).
I struggle with spares unless I practice just corner pins over 2 hours a week.
I can't get warmed up for a league in just 4 or 5 throws.
I get tired after 2 games most of the time in competition, not practice.
I can get into coordination funks that last for a week or so.
Why these are advantages for me also are.
1. I can decide to devote 20 30 or 40 hours to spare practice before a big tournament.
Bottom line is that because of formats of league I average almost 20 pins less, due to lack of warm up time, lack of flow, lack of evenness and usually a terrible first game.
Tournaments it's a different story.
Bottomline I'd bowl righty my coordinated side any day if I could.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I've seen a lot of guys try to switch who throw a beautiful ball, most struggle for a month or two and don't get above 165 because of the problems listed above.
2. Most tournaments don't have 5 bowlers on pair.
3. If I get in synch and flow watch out.
Post by: Rev_O on September 21, 2003, 09:32:46 AM
quote:
I have a couple of questions for Hamster and Rev o lutions.
1. Are you ambidexterous?
2. Can you do anything else just as good with your left hand, as your right? (keep it clean)
Coach Jim,
I would have to say yes, I am. I averaged 225 that year RH, and 217 LH. Also, I golf both ways, play to a 2 hdcp RH, and a 7 from the Leftside.
--------------------
Rev-O
Post by: HamPster on September 21, 2003, 01:36:07 PM
--------------------
HAH! I don't know ANYBODY now!
Being in adult leagues teaches you many things.
1. You're not on top anymore, but there are a lot more people that suck worse than you do now.
2. The myth about the youths having an easier shot is NOT TRUE. I'd have an entire ring collection if it was.
3. Drunk adults are a lot funnier than drunk youths.
Post by: Game In a BoxLC on September 21, 2003, 03:51:24 PM
From reading your posts and attitudes on this board, it is my belief you are very self defeating, your worry about doing the right thing, you wish oh please make this shot instead of having confidence in doing it.
To perform to the absolute best you can, you must have confidence in yourself that you can do what is required to be done, and right now you have none. You defeat yourself before you even step onto a lane saying well i can't bowl because this happens, or i cant throw a good shot because i bend my thumb or whatever.
Don't sweat the small stuff, believe in yourself, as you said in your earlier post you have proven before you can accell at this game, and according to your profile you have only done it three years and have accomplished alot, many of us including myself have been bowling upwards of 20 years, some even longer than that. Of course we have better muscle memory and better coordination or better feel for the game, we simply have done it for so long it is a very natural thing, much like learning to write, or riding a bicycle. I've bowled since i was 2 years old, i've done it so much it seems like a very natural motion. For you it seems you need to force the issue, but if you have mechanical problems now, you are lucky because you only have 3 yrs of muscle memory to correct, when someone like me has a problem, i might have been doing it for 10 years, it is much much more difficult to correct.
My suggestion is this. Do what we said physically practice wise, work out your wrists if you have to or whatever, get a wristband, anything.
Mentally, remind yourself on the way to the lanes the times you have been successful in this game, concentrate on how your mechanics felt, think of what it looks like, or felt like. Go into the lanes or league not thinking or hoping to shoot well that night. Go in being absolutely positive you are going to shoot well. If you get tapped, or a bad break, forget about it and keep this attitude. Confidence is a huge factor, you may have a solid phyiscal game, but mentally as you said you only have 3 years of mental makeup, you need to learn some of the basic mental principals which make good bowlers great.
Hope this helps, if you have any questions or need more detailed info respond in this thread or message me.
--------------------
am i still considered a lefty, i never get to play the left side of the lane
Post by: michelle on September 21, 2003, 04:43:17 PM
I considered trying to make the switch when I broke my hand (I really got frustrated sitting around not being able to bowl) and had gone so far as to acquire a pair of LH Dexter SST 5's. I had equipment that was a mild RH drill that probably would have worked for me port-siding it. Having watched people I knew make the switch, including one that has thrown 800's from both sides, I knew it was feasible. That was as far as I got though before getting stupid and rushing the return to the lanes...
However, while I can see some advantages to being able to throw from both sides, I agree with LeftyCrank300 that perhaps hampy is bowling poorly because he is trying to think too much. Too many changes to the game all at once add to the problems. Getting out of the place he is requires a complete deconstruction of the game and going back to basics...even if it means being reduced to weaker equipment and playing up 3, 8 10 or what ever board one wants to puck it up.
Figure out what it takes to put on the mental blinders and simply quit thinking and let the ball go. When you remove the mind from the equations, it is amazing what one can do with the bowling ball
Post by: CoachJim on September 23, 2003, 06:13:30 AM
quote:
I wouldn't be so sure of your mental game.
You kick yourself a lot and that's NOT a sign of a strong mental game.
The more you beat yourself up about what you are doing wrong, the longer it will take you to REALLY see it and figure out what set up that particular compensation. Not what's wrong! Hell, even a hack like me can see what's wrong.
Poking fun at one's self is not nesessarily a sign of a bad mental game. Sometimes it helps to make yourself feel like you are at your lowest point so you can rise up again, and if he fails at bowling there are many comics that make a good living bashing themselves so all is not lost either way.
Post by: CoachJim on September 23, 2003, 06:24:05 AM
Most ball drillers start everyone off with an old school stretched fingertip span and reverse pitch in the thumb and forward pitch in fingers. This causes the bowler to squeeze to hang onto the ball because of the reverse pitch and also causes pain in the fingers/wrist. The modern method has more of a forward pitch (not necessary forward, but more than the streched span drilling) in the thumb and more away in the fingers. The span is laid out so the front edge of the finger hole hits approximately half way between the first knuckle and the second knuckle. Bottom line the ball should grip your hand without having to squeeze to hang onto the ball.
Post by: HamPster on September 23, 2003, 11:56:50 AM
--------------------
HAH! I don't know ANYBODY now!
Being in adult leagues teaches you many things.
1. You're not on top anymore, but there are a lot more people that suck worse than you do now.
2. The myth about the youths having an easier shot is NOT TRUE. I'd have an entire ring collection if it was.
3. Drunk adults are a lot funnier than drunk youths.
Post by: Strider on September 23, 2003, 04:50:33 PM
--------------------
Penn State Proud
Post by: CoachJim on September 23, 2003, 11:26:56 PM
The following is Lucy Lefy's post and my thanks again to him.
Lately guys know I'm drilling balls at the little proshop in the back at home.
Having a lot of fun with it.
Top bowlers are coming up all the time with thumb problems and saying you know I go here but I've got this etc.
The number one thing I'm seeing from top bowlers are bruises or callouses under the base of the thumb and pain in this area!
Dangerous!
It appears the trends are to use less and less reverse pitch in the thumb or even to go forward. All with no understanding of how these pitches are suppossed to have some relationship to span.
Many people just want 0 forward/reverse pitch or maybe forward when maybe that is appropriate for their hand or maybe it isn't.
To compound the problem many are now saying I don't like Bevel, Norm Duke doesn't use bevel.
One top bowler around here tried 0 forward reverse for his shorter span and loved it. He loved it so much that he then went to 1/4 inch forward using a custom thumb. He now has a big bruise under his thumb, slight nerve damage, wears a patch there and may have to take a couple of weeks off.
Here are the basic concepts.
Bill Taylor created the following table. It is a great starting point.
It is based on 63 degrees of angle between the top of finger holes to thumb line and the thumb hole forward reverse angle.
Each increase of 1/8 inch of span increases reverse pitch 1/16, and each decrease of 1/8 inch of span decreases reverse pitch 1/16 of an inch.
For reference the table starts at 4 1/4 = 0 forward reverse pitch.
4 inch span = 1/16 forward pitch
4 1/4 span = 0 pitch
4 3/8 = 1/16 reverse
4 1/2= 1/8 reverse
4 5/8 = 3/16 reverse
4 3/4 = 1/4 reverse
4 7/8 = 5/16 reverse
5 = 3/8 reverse
People with dry thumbs, short thumbs (shorter than 2 1/4), and dropping problems should probably go 1/8 forward from the tables.
People with wet thumbs, long thumbs (longer than 2 1/2), and hanging problems not caused by bevel usually should add 1/8 reverse to the tables.
For example I should use about 3/16 reverse at 4 11/16 but I tend to like 1/16 to 1/32 reverse only due to a shorter but very dry thumb that has no problem releasing fast!
Recently being aware of lots of thumb damage in my area I went to 0 with a custom thumb and did not increase the front thumb bevel. One game and already I started to develop a little ping under the thumb. Instantly I jumped on it and applied a light touch of extra front bevel to the front surface(ring finger test) and problem fixed.
One decreases Pitch every 16th of an inch while keeping the span the same it is like making the span 1/8 of an inch longer in feel. Your thumb has to stretch and make it around the lip of the thumb. THis point if left at the same sharpness as it was for a workable span pitch setup will be essentially pointier if left with the same bevel. Note you've decreased your thumb angle to less than 63degrees. Decrease reverse pitch, leave span the same = increase front bevel for safety.
Don't damage YOUR thumb, don't blindly go forward and damage those important nerves in the base of your thumb. Don't copy a PBA or local star they may have a much more relaxed span in relation to their hand than you do.
Pitch should not be viewed in a vacumm. It should be viewed in the context of your span, your tendancy with the ball, and bevel should not be copied either.
Your hand may have the need for lots of bevel or very little based on the amount of webbing you have between your index finger and thumb.
More web = exposed nerves = more bevel. Less web = nerves in hand not web area = less bevel.
Protect that gifted hand of yours.
Don't follow drilling trends blindly without knowing your hand and your proper span!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: CoachJim on September 23, 2003, 11:27:28 PM
The following is Lucy Lefy's post and my thanks again to him.
Lately guys know I'm drilling balls at the little proshop in the back at home.
Having a lot of fun with it.
Top bowlers are coming up all the time with thumb problems and saying you know I go here but I've got this etc.
The number one thing I'm seeing from top bowlers are bruises or callouses under the base of the thumb and pain in this area!
Dangerous!
It appears the trends are to use less and less reverse pitch in the thumb or even to go forward. All with no understanding of how these pitches are suppossed to have some relationship to span.
Many people just want 0 forward/reverse pitch or maybe forward when maybe that is appropriate for their hand or maybe it isn't.
To compound the problem many are now saying I don't like Bevel, Norm Duke doesn't use bevel.
One top bowler around here tried 0 forward reverse for his shorter span and loved it. He loved it so much that he then went to 1/4 inch forward using a custom thumb. He now has a big bruise under his thumb, slight nerve damage, wears a patch there and may have to take a couple of weeks off.
Here are the basic concepts.
Bill Taylor created the following table. It is a great starting point.
It is based on 63 degrees of angle between the top of finger holes to thumb line and the thumb hole forward reverse angle.
Each increase of 1/8 inch of span increases reverse pitch 1/16, and each decrease of 1/8 inch of span decreases reverse pitch 1/16 of an inch.
For reference the table starts at 4 1/4 = 0 forward reverse pitch.
4 inch span = 1/16 forward pitch
4 1/4 span = 0 pitch
4 3/8 = 1/16 reverse
4 1/2= 1/8 reverse
4 5/8 = 3/16 reverse
4 3/4 = 1/4 reverse
4 7/8 = 5/16 reverse
5 = 3/8 reverse
People with dry thumbs, short thumbs (shorter than 2 1/4), and dropping problems should probably go 1/8 forward from the tables.
People with wet thumbs, long thumbs (longer than 2 1/2), and hanging problems not caused by bevel usually should add 1/8 reverse to the tables.
For example I should use about 3/16 reverse at 4 11/16 but I tend to like 1/16 to 1/32 reverse only due to a shorter but very dry thumb that has no problem releasing fast!
Recently being aware of lots of thumb damage in my area I went to 0 with a custom thumb and did not increase the front thumb bevel. One game and already I started to develop a little ping under the thumb. Instantly I jumped on it and applied a light touch of extra front bevel to the front surface(ring finger test) and problem fixed.
One decreases Pitch every 16th of an inch while keeping the span the same it is like making the span 1/8 of an inch longer in feel. Your thumb has to stretch and make it around the lip of the thumb. THis point if left at the same sharpness as it was for a workable span pitch setup will be essentially pointier if left with the same bevel. Note you've decreased your thumb angle to less than 63degrees. Decrease reverse pitch, leave span the same = increase front bevel for safety.
Don't damage YOUR thumb, don't blindly go forward and damage those important nerves in the base of your thumb. Don't copy a PBA or local star they may have a much more relaxed span in relation to their hand than you do.
Pitch should not be viewed in a vacumm. It should be viewed in the context of your span, your tendancy with the ball, and bevel should not be copied either.
Your hand may have the need for lots of bevel or very little based on the amount of webbing you have between your index finger and thumb.
More web = exposed nerves = more bevel. Less web = nerves in hand not web area = less bevel.
Protect that gifted hand of yours.
Don't follow drilling trends blindly without knowing your hand and your proper span!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: HamPster on September 24, 2003, 01:41:46 AM
--------------------
HAH! I don't know ANYBODY now!
Being in adult leagues teaches you many things.
1. You're not on top anymore, but there are a lot more people that suck worse than you do now.
2. The myth about the youths having an easier shot is NOT TRUE. I'd have an entire ring collection if it was.
3. Drunk adults are a lot funnier than drunk youths.