win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: A drilling WTF? thing  (Read 6332 times)

Juggernaut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6498
  • Former good bowler, now 3 games a week house hack.
A drilling WTF? thing
« on: December 16, 2010, 02:05:02 PM »
OK, I have spent LOTS of time and effort learning the intricacies of modern ball drillings.

 Learned what paps are for, learning about pin placements and the effects of mass bias placements. Learned about the degree technique, the clock technique, and the dual angle technique.

 Then this happens and makes me question whether it means anyting or not.

 Tonight, a member of my team who likes to experiment, comes in with a "new" ball. It is actually a used ball (Mo-Rich Lev-RG RESPONSE) that is already drilled. My friend knows SQUAT about ball tech or drilling tech, and is amazed when I tell him that the ball is set up in what appears to be a pretty strong pattern FOR A LEFTY. My friend is a RIGHT HANDED STROKER.  It is very close to a stacked double thumb drilling for a lefty, which is going to put the pin, MB, and x-hole right in his track. He just says "lets see what happens".

 He then shoots 246-278-209/733, about 190 pins OVER his average. HUH?

 Ball acted nice, and he was able to play right up the track, getting a smallish flip right in front of the rack, and carrying the world.

 Really makes me wonder just exactly how much all this technical drilling stuff is even relevant to most house bowlers.
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

 

Russell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5121
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2010, 10:09:04 PM »
My belief is that on a fresh house shot it really doesn't matter anymore what you're throwing.  If it's round and you can get your hand out of it you can strike.
--------------------
Little known fact:  In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

arickdm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2010, 11:15:23 PM »
my first 300 was with a green gargoyle drilled for a lefty

six pack

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2799
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2010, 04:39:14 AM »
so how much lay-out will a stroker with little rev and rotation need? the good one's in my house use cover and accuracy.
--------------------
The harder I try the harder they fall
The harder I try the harder they fall

kmtproshop

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2010, 05:08:24 AM »
I get criticized a lot for my "views" on bowling and for my ball jig, but I'm getting a pretty thick skin lately so consider this:

Most all manufacturers agree that the core of the ball only contributes about 15% to the total ball reaction, but the ball is only 1/3 of the equation, in my opinion.  The bowler is another third, (ie ball speed, revolutions, etc.) and the lanes themselves are another third (oil pattern, carry down, etc.)  That brings the core "value" down to about 5%.  How much can you realistically expect on the lanes from 5%????

Another issue (again in my opinion) is what the ball looks like as it travels down the lane.  I wrote a piece on another site not too long ago about "label revs".  The old Rhino Pro ball is a good example.  It had 3 different logos on it and if you positioned them around your PAP, it made the ball look like it was spinning at 1000 RPM's!!  If you feel good about the way you're throwing the ball, you will probably bowl better.

Technology is a wonderful thing and it can be used effectively to "fine tune" your game, but people tend to get hung up on dual angles, double thumbs, etc.

Again, only my humble opinion.

cheech

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1360
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2010, 05:44:48 AM »
when applying a ball drilled for a lefty to a right handed bowler you just take the layout and measure it to the bowlers PAP. so this ball for the righty was a long pin probably a higher drill angle to promote length and lower VAL angle to get a quicker response to friction. idk much of anything about weight hole placement so i have no clue what that did to the ball.
--------------------
sacred heart university bowling, jr.
greatest accomplishment:shooting 603 and not shooting one 200 game(130,173,300)...lol
balls for sale in my profile
everyone is born right handed, only the gifted overcome it

Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2010, 05:58:56 AM »
Putting the mb in the ball track would produce a smoother reaction. I am just surprised that he did not roll over the weight hole, since it was drilled double thumb for a lefty.

Juggernaut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6498
  • Former good bowler, now 3 games a week house hack.
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2010, 06:21:45 AM »
You guys make some valid points.

  But, if you can basically bring anything, drilled anyway, and shoot decent scores, why do we even need to worry about how we drill balls?

 And why do proshops seem to think they are miracle workers?

 No proshop worth anything would've ever reccommended drilling a ball like that for anyone. His pap looks to be in the 5inch range, so this left him with about a 6-7in pin to pap with negative CG and negaative MB in the track.

 Me, personally? I think I am going to worry a lot less about how to set up a ball for certain reactions anymore. I'm just going to throw it and "see what happens".
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

cheech

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1360
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2010, 06:32:19 AM »
if you are only bowling on house shots drilling is really not a huge concern most of the time. but when bowling on sport shots you want a specific ball reaction and you fine tune it with a drill pattern.


--------------------
sacred heart university bowling, jr.
greatest accomplishment:shooting 603 and not shooting one 200 game(130,173,300)...lol
balls for sale in my profile
everyone is born right handed, only the gifted overcome it

jls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18398
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2010, 07:34:06 AM »
quote:
You guys make some valid points.

  But, if you can basically bring anything, drilled anyway, and shoot decent scores, why do we even need to worry about how we drill balls?

 And why do proshops seem to think they are miracle workers?

 No proshop worth anything would've ever reccommended drilling a ball like that for anyone. His pap looks to be in the 5inch range, so this left him with about a 6-7in pin to pap with negative CG and negaative MB in the track.

 Me, personally? I think I am going to worry a lot less about how to set up a ball for certain reactions anymore. I'm just going to throw it and "see what happens".
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile





Sir,  You are right, this is not the norm... But it is done, and for a reason...

Depending on the lane condition and the bowler...

To me this is a good drilling for someone who needs length and may have a slower ball speed...And he may also have decent hand...

Now from the scores you posted,  it seems like it worked well for him...

What I don't understand is why you felt the need to knock pro shops.. "miracle workers".

Many times a customer and a ball driller discuss layouts... and based on the info the customer gives to the driller, the ball may be drilled in a different manner...

Actually, I see bowlers all the time using someone's  ball and scoring with it...   And like in this case, it might appear to have been drilled for a left handed bowler..

And once again,  the way you described the balls reaction, matches up well with the way the ball was drilled...
--------------------
jls

kidlost2000

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5789
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2010, 07:47:53 AM »
If you found out his PAP you can go back and find other drillings to give him a very similar reaction. Keep in mind the pin is likely close to 6.5"+ from his pap. That is going to be a very stable(sometimes called weak) position and same for the PSA. It gives the ball the reaction you saw last night.

More common is to see left handers throwing used equipment from right handers and seeing the ball roll very similar. On most conditions you don't need a ball, surface and drill pattern to hook the whole lane. Most people score much better when they can relax and play an area with out the ball going crazy if they miss. They stay in their comfort zone longer and have to move much less.

We have been sold the idea of more hook is needed for big scores.
--------------------
Be good, or be good at it.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

robuster

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2010, 09:07:17 AM »
Bowling has said p!ss on the skill set needed to score. Let these guys just grip  it and rip it. Can somebody pleaseeeeeee put out a ball that hooks more? IMO, on a ths all balls are created equal.
--------------------
Live free or die trying.

jls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18398
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2010, 10:15:31 AM »
quote:
If you found out his PAP you can go back and find other drillings to give him a very similar reaction. Keep in mind the pin is likely close to 6.5"+ from his pap. That is going to be a very stable(sometimes called weak) position and same for the PSA. It gives the ball the reaction you saw last night.

More common is to see left handers throwing used equipment from right handers and seeing the ball roll very similar. On most conditions you don't need a ball, surface and drill pattern to hook the whole lane. Most people score much better when they can relax and play an area with out the ball going crazy if they miss. They stay in their comfort zone longer and have to move much less.

We have been sold the idea of more hook is needed for big scores.
--------------------
Be good, or be good at it.



Triple amen to that...And sometimes with this type of drilling a Negative Balance hole is needed... { Balance hole drilled on his left side of ball } Haven't seen many negative balance holes in years...

In the good old days, that was the way most balls were drilled... with the Balance hole on the left side...


--------------------
jls

Juggernaut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6498
  • Former good bowler, now 3 games a week house hack.
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2010, 12:16:34 PM »
quote:
Sir, You are right, this is not the norm... But it is done, and for a reason...

Depending on the lane condition and the bowler...


 But that's the thing. He bought it used and it was already drilled for a lefty, AND the guy didn't even know how to tell that. It wasn't designed for him at all for any reason.

quote:
To me this is a good drilling for someone who needs length and may have a slower ball speed...And he may also have decent hand...

Now from the scores you posted, it seems like it worked well for him...


 He really gets plenty of length from his "normal" stuff, does have medium speed, and has pretty soft hand.  No arguing that it worked for him, I am just at a loss to figure out how or why.

quote:
What I don't understand is why you felt the need to knock pro shops.. "miracle workers".


 Well, knowing what I know about drilling techniques, and how much I have studied on this subject, I feel like MANY shops take way too much credit when something works. This situation only enforces that belief by defying the norm and working in spite of the fact that it really shouldn't, at least not like it did.  If you can get this type of performance from a ball with this drilling, then it really may not matter where you put the holes afterall, which means all the stuff we know about drilling is practically inconsequential.

 
quote:
Many times a customer and a ball driller discuss layouts... and based on the info the customer gives to the driller, the ball may be drilled in a different manner...


 But, like I said, I know this guy personally and that IS NOT the case. He bought it off ebay ALREADY drilled.


quote:
Actually, I see bowlers all the time using someone's ball and scoring with it... And like in this case, it might appear to have been drilled for a left handed bowler..


 It didn't "appear" to be drilled for a lefty, it WAS drilled for a lefty and you can tell by little telltale things like the finger hole sizes, track wear marks, and x-hole placement.


quote:
And once again, the way you described the balls reaction, matches up well with the way the ball was drilled...


 THAT is the whole thing in a nutshell. I understand that there are times when really long pin to paps are preferred, but this ball and this bowler and these conditions don't really match up to me to be one of those times.


 I'm not really trying to argue, or stir up trouble. I am just trying to figure out why we have spent so much time learning the "right" way to drill a ball for reaction purposes, and why so much time has bent spent by educated professional people researching the subject, only to see something like this where it really doesn't seem to matter that the ball is set up totally incorrectly for you to even use, yet you get a good reaction out of it anyway.

 I guess what I'm asking is, does it REALLY matter how you drill a ball, or do you just need it to fit and go throw the dang thing REGARDLESS of how it is drilled?
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

Dave-bestbowlingproshops

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2010, 12:36:01 PM »
I don't think taking results from one night is enough.  Anything can match up for a bowler on one particular night.  Not saying it isn't going to roll good for him more often but one night isn't enough data.  I also agree with THS taking a lot away from layouts.  On pba conditions you see more what the ball was drilled to do.
--------------------
www.bestbowlingproshops.com
Track Staff
Turbo Staff
Dave Roberts
Best Bowling Pro Shops
Always bringing the Best of Bowling to you!!!
www.bestbowlingproshops.com
Imperial Location: (636) 467-7842
Check us out on Facebook!