win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: A drilling WTF? thing  (Read 6333 times)

Juggernaut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6498
  • Former good bowler, now 3 games a week house hack.
A drilling WTF? thing
« on: December 16, 2010, 02:05:02 PM »
OK, I have spent LOTS of time and effort learning the intricacies of modern ball drillings.

 Learned what paps are for, learning about pin placements and the effects of mass bias placements. Learned about the degree technique, the clock technique, and the dual angle technique.

 Then this happens and makes me question whether it means anyting or not.

 Tonight, a member of my team who likes to experiment, comes in with a "new" ball. It is actually a used ball (Mo-Rich Lev-RG RESPONSE) that is already drilled. My friend knows SQUAT about ball tech or drilling tech, and is amazed when I tell him that the ball is set up in what appears to be a pretty strong pattern FOR A LEFTY. My friend is a RIGHT HANDED STROKER.  It is very close to a stacked double thumb drilling for a lefty, which is going to put the pin, MB, and x-hole right in his track. He just says "lets see what happens".

 He then shoots 246-278-209/733, about 190 pins OVER his average. HUH?

 Ball acted nice, and he was able to play right up the track, getting a smallish flip right in front of the rack, and carrying the world.

 Really makes me wonder just exactly how much all this technical drilling stuff is even relevant to most house bowlers.
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

 

Lillen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1287
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2010, 12:38:33 PM »
Sorry for the hi-jack but I just watched a japanese P-League game and one of the girls had a Mission drilled with the Pin about 2 inches to the left of her middle finger (she's a righty and put her index finger on the Pin) and she had a pretty smooth reaction...

Link:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1E2YJdo6WY  (look closely from 1:43)
--------------------
-------------------
www.dteracing.se

3835

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 749
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2010, 12:50:46 PM »
Plus, here is what we have to look at. If we did not know what kind of ball it was, all we could describe it as is a 6-7 inch PAP, negative CG, and a MB in the track. Look at each factor one by one.  A long pin to PAP allows for greater than average length for drier conditions. Back in the day, my friend had a Pearl Boss drilled pin directly in his track and evern with his fingers, cg in the palm, and used it on fried stuff and killed...cg negative...well..it matters, but not much, as determined, especially in a high mass bias ball. As for the mass bias, MB in the track is for a smoother backend. The only thing I could see out of this is the pin in your track has a tendency to raise your track (did for me on the one ball I tried a pin in your track drilling and my friend above with the Pearl Boss), if this person had a lower track, this drill could have helped raise the track, allowing better roll on the ball, which in turn allowed the ball to face up toward the pocket better with a better angle to kick out corners, etc....

So many factors at play, anything could happen.

3835

jls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18398
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2010, 01:40:59 PM »
Jag, The drilling that you described is something that we do indeed do for customers from time to time...For certain lane conditions...

My wild guess, the lanes were on the dry side with really clean back ends on the night your friend scored with that ball...

When he hits more oil, it might be a different story...

In some cases when a customer really likes a certain ball, he may have several of them drilled up... All with different layouts...

It's not uncommon to have one drilled "tame"... Similar to what you described...

And the bowler will indeed see a different reaction with each model...

Let us know how your friend does over the next few weeks with that ball...

Merry Christmas


--------------------
jls

Juggernaut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6498
  • Former good bowler, now 3 games a week house hack.
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2010, 02:11:48 PM »
quote:
Jag, The drilling that you described is something that we do indeed do for customers from time to time...For certain lane conditions...

My wild guess, the lanes were on the dry side with really clean back ends on the night your friend scored with that ball...

When he hits more oil, it might be a different story...

In some cases when a customer really likes a certain ball, he may have several of them drilled up... All with different layouts...

It's not uncommon to have one drilled "tame"... Similar to what you described...

And the bowler will indeed see a different reaction with each model...

Let us know how your friend does over the next few weeks with that ball...

Merry Christmas


--------------------
jls


 I will. I'm going to keep an eye on this thing.

 I've seen people drill balls like this on purpose (I even had one), but it was with a purpose and it served a purpose, usually a stronger handed player on dryish conditions. That isn't so this time.

 I honestly didn't think the guy had enough hand to overcome the negative dynamics built into this ball, and figured it was a big candidate for rolling out. He isn't a big hitter by any stretch of the imagination, so him needing a weakly drilled ball seemed to be ridiculous. I was NOT even close in my estimation, and I must admit, it has me a bit baffled.

 Maybe it was just one of those freak things where the perfect bowler has the perfect ball at the perfect time for the perfect condition, I just don't see how, given what I've learned about ball dynamics.
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

Zanatos1914

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2376
  • Success is achieved by failure
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2010, 02:43:11 PM »
I belive like was stated before - The lanes had to be dry and the backend and to be flaming for that 2 work. With my style of bowling we sometimes have trouble with dry and switch to left handed drill which hold the weight block from flipping completely over fast.  

This is legal..  :-)

Find an old ball and test it -- Great fix for dry lanes for those of use who have trouble with the heads of the lane and flaming backends...
--------------------
2 Fingers 4 Life
I Am The 3 Fingers Nightmare

kidlost2000

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5789
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2010, 05:11:54 PM »
As long as the ball had a modern cover the lanes do not have to be dry by any means to get hook. Also the pin being left of the center grip line for a right hander and being labeled as a negative drilling is an old terminology that can also be very wrong.

Depending on your style, with out knowing the bowlers PAP a 5" pin to pap can be very much on the left side of the ball for that bowler. That doesn't mean they need more revs to get it to work. That is why knowing the bowlers PAP makes a world of difference.

With todays covers and cores any bowler can grab a ball drilled for someone else and get good results in many cases. Not all. There is no magic trick.

The point of learning what you did is to not drill the ball in a way to have problems such as flaring the finger, thumb, ect. To be be able to match the ball with the person and the desired condition. To do these things consistently.


--------------------
Be good, or be good at it.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

kidlost2000

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5789
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2010, 05:13:18 PM »
My local shop where I bowl does not know or check the bowlers PAP for any equipment. All bowling balls are drilled with the pin above or below the ring finger, and the MB close to the thumb(if it has one) and the weight holes are just for taking out the weight needed and not based on anything else.

If you want length, pin up, roll early pin down. That is it. Guess what? It seems to work well with very little problem. It doesn't get the max performance possible for many. It is just a cookie cutter way of doing things that probably 90% of the bowlers do not know the difference.
--------------------
Be good, or be good at it.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

Strapper_Squared

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4231
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2010, 06:04:33 PM »
well, assuming your local house actually puts conditioner on the lane surface, then yes, I would agree

S^2

quote:
My belief is that on a fresh house shot it really doesn't matter anymore what you're throwing.  If it's round and you can get your hand out of it you can strike.
--------------------
Little known fact:  In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

--------------------
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Strapper_Squared

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4231
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2010, 06:05:05 PM »
well, assuming your local house actually puts conditioner on the lane surface, then yes, I would agree

S^2

quote:
My belief is that on a fresh house shot it really doesn't matter anymore what you're throwing.  If it's round and you can get your hand out of it you can strike.
--------------------
Little known fact:  In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

--------------------
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

spiders2283

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2010, 06:42:56 AM »
I remember back in 2000 I got a Brunswick Pro Zone drilled from the pro shop I used to go to.  I knew the guy running the shop because he used to give me lessons when I was younger.  He said he was going to drill it based off my approach and release.  I remember I picked it up out of my locker the day of a youth tournament and shot about 10 pins under my average, didn''t think anything of it.  Stopped bowling with it for about a year and went back to my Ebonite and my other Zone.  Stop bowling for a year because I left the country after I graduated, came back and joined a league and had to use my Pro Zone as my other balls were left in the basement which flooded when I was gone.  I averaged around 178.  Then I joined a winter league, average lower with the Pro Zone.  Some days it would hook and other days it would just go straight down the second arrow and only move a couple boards.  I thought it was my release or the oil pattern.  One day my friend let''s me use his Hex, and I shoot 688 for set with a high game of 279!!!!  Then the next week I go back to that Pro Zone and struggle to shoot over 500.  League ends, I don''t join another league, only do open play here and there until one day I go bowling with a couple of my old friends.  My friend looks at the way my pro zone rolls and asks to see it.  He throws it with his right hand says hmmmm then throws it with his left (he is ambidextrous) and says that''s why.  I saw the way my ball should have been reacting for all of these years.  It was drilled for a lefty, my first instinct was to yell at the guy who ran that pro shop but he died so I really couldn''t do that.  So moral of the story don''t let your pro shop drill you a ball without them showing you the pin placement and the drilling layout beforehand.

Edited on 12/18/2010 8:44 AM

jls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18398
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2010, 06:44:36 AM »
quote:
Quote


--------------------


 I will. I'm going to keep an eye on this thing.

 I've seen people drill balls like this on purpose (I even had one), but it was with a purpose and it served a purpose, usually a stronger handed player on dryish conditions. That isn't so this time.

 I honestly didn't think the guy had enough hand to overcome the negative dynamics built into this ball, and figured it was a big candidate for rolling out. He isn't a big hitter by any stretch of the imagination, so him needing a weakly drilled ball seemed to be ridiculous. I was NOT even close in my estimation, and I must admit, it has me a bit baffled.

 Maybe it was just one of those freak things where the perfect bowler has the perfect ball at the perfect time for the perfect condition, I just don't see how, given what I've learned about ball dynamics.
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile




Exactly what I meant...

Have a great weekend...

and remember to shop, and shop often...
--------------------
jls

stealth

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2010, 07:00:16 AM »
So would you rather of had him shoot 450 so you can prove to everyone that you were right? To me the layouts and ball choices of other bowlers is their business and yes it includes team members as well.






Juggernaut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6498
  • Former good bowler, now 3 games a week house hack.
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2010, 08:26:51 AM »
quote:
So would you rather of had him shoot 450 so you can prove to everyone that you were right?


 No, but it IS close to what I expected after initially seeing the ball. I was proud for him to shoot those scores, but a bit amazed that the ball actually finished through the pins without lots of deflection or roll out.

 I'm not complaining about it working, I'm just amazed and confused.

 I don't ever want anyone to shoot bad, not even my opponents. I would rather have them bowl good and still beat them than to have them "give" me wins.



{quote] To me the layouts and ball choices of other bowlers is their business and yes it includes team members as well.[/quote]

 As it is with me. Thing is, he didn't even know how it was set up when he bought it, only that he likes Mo-Rich stuff, and was surprised to hear me say it was a left handers ball.

 His ball choices, and his layout choices, are his to make. It's just that HE didn't make this one, it was already drilled this way when he bought it and he didn't even know, nor did/does he fully understand the difference.

 And the way it rolled for him, nor does any of it seem to matter.


--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.

jls

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18398
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2010, 11:46:29 AM »
quote:
quote:
So would you rather of had him shoot 450 so you can prove to everyone that you were right?


 No, but it IS close to what I expected after initially seeing the ball. I was proud for him to shoot those scores, but a bit amazed that the ball actually finished through the pins without lots of deflection or roll out.

 I''m not complaining about it working, I''m just amazed and confused.

 I don''t ever want anyone to shoot bad, not even my opponents. I would rather have them bowl good and still beat them than to have them "give" me wins.



{quote] To me the layouts and ball choices of other bowlers is their business and yes it includes team members as well.


 As it is with me. Thing is, he didn''t even know how it was set up when he bought it, only that he likes Mo-Rich stuff, and was surprised to hear me say it was a left handers ball.

 His ball choices, and his layout choices, are his to make. It''s just that HE didn''t make this one, it was already drilled this way when he bought it and he didn''t even know, nor did/does he fully understand the difference.

 And the way it rolled for him, nor does any of it seem to matter.


--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

[/quote]




Jag, so if what you just said is true,  why the attack on pro shops...

It seems according to you, that the ball came this way... and no pro shop fitted him or drilled the ball with this so called left handed or tame drilling...

HE bought it THAT WAY...

And now pro shops "THINK THEY ARE MIRACLE WORKERS"

Your friend bought something on Ebay that was clearly not drilled for him...The first time out he scored well with it... But time will tell... When he hits some oil, it may be a different out come.


Merry Christmas


--------------------
jls

Edited on 12/19/2010 2:07 PM

Juggernaut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6498
  • Former good bowler, now 3 games a week house hack.
Re: A drilling WTF? thing
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2010, 12:40:56 PM »
quote:
Jag, so if what you just said is true, why the attack on pro shops...

It seems according to you, that the ball came this way... and no pro shop fitted him or drilled the ball with this so called left handed or tame drilling...

HE bought it THAT WAY...

And now pro shops "THINK THEY ARE MIRACLE WORKERS"

Your friend bought something on Ebay that was clearly not drilled for him...The first time out he scored well with it... But time will tell... When he hits some oil, it may be a different out come.


 I asked "Why do proshops seem to think they are miracle workers", which was not an attack, but a valid question. Here is how it works.

 If a guy, who know very little technical stuff, can buy a used ball that isn't even drilled for him to begin with, and is in fact drilled for someone using the opposite hand, then proceed to shoot higher with it than something that is/was drilled for him, why does all that special knowledge we've had to learn even matter? Simplified, this came out as the question you saw.

 If you, or I, can take a decent ball and just put some holes in it and have it react like this, why even bother learning all that "special" stuff anyway?

 This is what was meant by this. If it doesn't matter, why do we seem to think all that knowledge makes us special?


--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

Learn to laugh, and love, and smile, cause we’re only here for a little while.