BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Track_Fanatic on February 04, 2014, 06:36:06 PM
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Just checked bowl.com and saw an article that Executive Director Stu Upson resigned today effective immediately. Why are most of these kinds of articles make you wonder what really happened.
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It's not like they are going to just come out and tell you.
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He got mad because he can't get any more 300-800-11 in a row awards after this season. So he resigned....
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Another milestone in the future collapse of USBC. He was smart and got off that sinking ship.
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Pro Shop
If your so hell bent on the collapse of the USBC, maybe you should quit bowling their events and start a new organization that will bring back the good old days.
Guys like you, and I'm not picking you out, but there a lot like you, complain about the perceived problems of an organization with no input on how to fix it.
Just a general statement, but the membership should be paying much more then $16.00 to be a member, unless you think the USBC should be run out of a garage.
The USBC will be here a whole lot longer then most of us, in one form or another.
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Pro Shop
If your so hell bent on the collapse of the USBC, maybe you should quit bowling their events and start a new organization that will bring back the good old days.
Guys like you, and I'm not picking you out, but there a lot like you, complain about the perceived problems of an organization with no input on how to fix it.
Just a general statement, but the membership should be paying much more then $16.00 to be a member, unless you think the USBC should be run out of a garage.
The USBC will be here a whole lot longer then most of us, in one form or another.
If I had a solution and USBC listened, I would help. Just stating that USBC is in trouble. They keep taking away from the average bowler and giving them no incentive to keep bowling or to attract new members. Taking awards from kids definitely hurts. I am not against paying more if bowlers are taken care of.
As far as USBC nationally, I have stopped supporting it. Not keen on going to Reno once a year. Understand that it is more cost effective to hold there, but putting Vegas in there does not help IMO. Would like to see something in Texas or Florida.
We are one of the states that have been selected for the new lane inspection program. The money that was going to our local organization will now be going to Texas. How does that help locally? I think this is another cry for "we need money" do I want to see USBC go? No. I just feel they are treading water right now. I have seen the letters and responses to the lane inspection program and centers in the 3 states that are to be tested are not happy.
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Yep, that's what the reps of my associations have told me. They've made up their minds and there's no changing them. I'm in four leagues in two associations and we're not going to be sanctioned next year. Not going to get in a big argument here but we've made suggestions and nobody's listening.
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Houses are trying to come up with creative solutions to allow the few that care about tournaments to sanction while not bothering to sanction any of their actual leagues.
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Yep, Joe, I'm one of those few who care but unless somebody comes up with something, I'll just be bowling non-sanctioned events next year.
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As far as USBC nationally, I have stopped supporting it. Not keen on going to Reno once a year. Understand that it is more cost effective to hold there, but putting Vegas in there does not help IMO. Would like to see something in Texas or Florida.
I would like to see it actually float around the country. East, west, south, north. Seattle, Miami, Kansas City, Detroit, NY, Arizona....Lots of areas that could benefit from nationals coming to their towns...and may draw more interest in the Nationals
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Nationals is in Texas next year, if you count El Paso as being in Texas. About as far west as you can get, but hey at least I can drive there. I will sanction as long as their is an USBC and bowl the Nationals as long as health allows. I know our association is probably pissed about the lane inspections, that money was important funding and the association now has to buy more awards out of their back pockets. I do think inspections have a better chance now of being done right and the condition inspections being un-announced per rules as well. (what few of those they do anymore.)
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As far as USBC nationally, I have stopped supporting it. Not keen on going to Reno once a year. Understand that it is more cost effective to hold there, but putting Vegas in there does not help IMO. Would like to see something in Texas or Florida.
I would like to see it actually float around the country. East, west, south, north. Seattle, Miami, Kansas City, Detroit, NY, Arizona....Lots of areas that could benefit from nationals coming to their towns...and may draw more interest in the Nationals
Elimeno,
What you fail to realize in this uber-simplification is that there has to be someone in these areas willing to bid on the tournament. That means putting together an attractive package that has reasonable rents for a center, and contains a bid that is high enough to convince the USBC to accept it. Usually, places with casinos can offer more attractive bids as the casinos are willing to outlay the funds with the hopes of getting all those bowlers to spend money there. The second part is that there has to be somewhere big enough to house the tournament. Last I remember the tournament needed like 100,000-150,000 sq ft of space. This includes room for the lanes, the machines, the setee areas, seating and the shops that are part of the tournament. Even in these towns, is there a space that large just sitting unused? Most convention centers, where the tournament is usually housed, have yearly commitments from gun shows, flower shows, bridal shows, car & boat shows, etc. that have the facility booked. The tournament will need at least 7-8 months of time in order to build, test, run, and tear down. How many things would be displaced by this? And how many would come back after getting sent packing the year before?
If you, and others, really want the tournament to be somewhere, instead of typing on a message board like this, do something about it. Work with your local chamber of commerce, your local convention center board, your local businesses and see if you can convince them to put together a bid. Put together a convinving one and I assure you the tournament will be in that town in the future. If you and others do this, you will soon find out why the tournament isn't in these towns as they either have no desire or no resources in order to make this happen.
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Do they really NEED all of that though? I know they WANT all of that, but I think they focus on what they want instead of what they need. All they really need is a place where they can lay down the lanes or a city with a larger center that has closed down. They don't need the booths, they don't need a meeting room, etc. They can make other options work, but the desire isn't there.
I'm not pushing either way, just playing devil's advocate. I can live with Vegas/Reno every year.
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I fully understand why USBC is taking inspections back from local associations.
Because they are some associations that took the inspection money and never inspected anything.
Also, I have worked at centers where, the "unannounced" inspections worked like this.
Manager comes to me. Associations inspectors are coming Thursday morning. Run pattern 8 Thursday morning when you do the lanes.
Why, we never run pattern 8.
Manager: Pattern 8 passes tape inspection of oiling rules. All of our league shots are illegal.
USBC wants to stop this. If they all did what they were supposed to, then they wouldn't have to do this.
80-90% of local associations may be compliant. No idea. But I know of a couple that are not myself.
And I know of several houses that I have bowled at, where there is no way certain pairs in that house could have passed an inspection.
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I fully understand why USBC is taking inspections back from local associations.
Because they are some associations that took the inspection money and never inspected anything.
Also, I have worked at centers where, the "unannounced" inspections worked like this.
Manager comes to me. Associations inspectors are coming Thursday morning. Run pattern 8 Thursday morning when you do the lanes.
Why, we never run pattern 8.
Manager: Pattern 8 passes tape inspection of oiling rules. All of our league shots are illegal.
USBC wants to stop this. If they all did what they were supposed to, then they wouldn't have to do this.
80-90% of local associations may be compliant. No idea. But I know of a couple that are not myself.
And I know of several houses that I have bowled at, where there is no way certain pairs in that house could have passed an inspection.
I'm not the rules expert, but my understanding is that there are no obligations to actually put out a legal shot for league. I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but when I've asked, this was the answer I was given. If this is indeed true, the entire inspection process is a joke and a waste of money anyway.
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Do they really NEED all of that though? I know they WANT all of that, but I think they focus on what they want instead of what they need. All they really need is a place where they can lay down the lanes or a city with a larger center that has closed down. They don't need the booths, they don't need a meeting room, etc. They can make other options work, but the desire isn't there.
I'm not pushing either way, just playing devil's advocate. I can live with Vegas/Reno every year.
Joe Cool,
There are many bowlers who use the National tournament as their reasoning for a new ball purchase. I, for one, for many years bought maybe 1-2 new balls a year and I would always get one at Nationals. Without the booths, the tournament and the ball companies would lose a lot of money, something that is all too common in today's bowling landscape. The other thing you have to realize, as I saw it happen first hand, is that if a building is closed, the HVAC systems become compromised. Mold, Mildew and other such things quickly build up. If a building sits vacant and unused too long, the entire HVAC system would have to be replaced prior to it being able to be used by people for anything. The electrical systems also can become compromised, although not as quickly as the HVAC systems, and may need repair or replacement. While it's convenient to say just house it in a closed facility, reality is different matter altogether.
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USBC should have tested in their home state if Texas before venturing out. Makes sense to keep travel costs to a minimum to see if a program is going to work first.
Joe - I do believe USBC got rid of the minimum length and 1 minimum on each board oiled requirement.
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Do they really NEED all of that though? I know they WANT all of that, but I think they focus on what they want instead of what they need. All they really need is a place where they can lay down the lanes or a city with a larger center that has closed down. They don't need the booths, they don't need a meeting room, etc. They can make other options work, but the desire isn't there.
I'm not pushing either way, just playing devil's advocate. I can live with Vegas/Reno every year.
Joe Cool,
There are many bowlers who use the National tournament as their reasoning for a new ball purchase. I, for one, for many years bought maybe 1-2 new balls a year and I would always get one at Nationals. Without the booths, the tournament and the ball companies would lose a lot of money, something that is all too common in today's bowling landscape. The other thing you have to realize, as I saw it happen first hand, is that if a building is closed, the HVAC systems become compromised. Mold, Mildew and other such things quickly build up. If a building sits vacant and unused too long, the entire HVAC system would have to be replaced prior to it being able to be used by people for anything. The electrical systems also can become compromised, although not as quickly as the HVAC systems, and may need repair or replacement. While it's convenient to say just house it in a closed facility, reality is different matter altogether.
The point Jorge is that they refuse to even examine other options. I'll bowl in Reno every year and be okay with it. I don't care personally, but you have to realize that at least a decent amount of the membership does.
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I was on the Dallas board for many years. Took a break a few years back due to personal obligations and business. During my time I went to the USBC (ABC) convention on several occasions and once as an athlete since. At one point Dallas had the national tournament. The key was Dallas had a bond election scheduled to do a major revamp of our Fair Park area, including merging some structures into a massive convention center. Plan was the first event at the new convention center, the ABC Nationals. Long story short, bond election failed and Dallas withdrew from event. This same story has played out on several occasions in recent years, which is the main reason we have ended up at Reno so many times. Remember Disney and believe Witchita was the other recent. Bottom line is what was talked about earlier. Big cities like a Dallas, Ft. Worth, Houston or even Arlington don't need our tournament to fill their convention center. Man I wish they did just once, but unless something like the Dallas deal happened and passed well ain't gonna happen.
On inspections. I went from one of the in crowd to outsider due to throwing a fit over an announced inspection and the inspector telling the owner just put out something legal when I come out. He hinted he didn't care any other time. There are rules in place or were, and it even said that the inspections were to be unannounced. However there is no penalty to the bowling center if they fail. So no guts.
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The point Jorge is that they refuse to even examine other options. I'll bowl in Reno every year and be okay with it. I don't care personally, but you have to realize that at least a decent amount of the membership does.
Joe, You are missing the point. This is a bid processes. It isn't he USBC's job to go out and find a place....the places put their bids in when they WANT the tournament. Tex mentioned it in his post, the only way we get into places is when convention centers are brand new, and the tournament gets in before other events get booked, or the convention center has undergone a renovation and again we get in before they bring back their yearly commitments. Yes, the tournament brings a lot to a town, once. Most convention centers have shows that come year after year after year. Why would you throw them out, and take the chance that they won't come back for a one-time thing? Your post (and i'm not picking just on you) is the problem that most bowlers have, they get upset about going West, or going to Reno all the time and think the USBC is the issue. THe USBC only can pick from the candidates they are given, and like any business, they are going to pick the best deal. If you or anyone wants the tournament back East you need to work with you local civic center board, chamber of commerce, bowling association, casino if you have any, and put together a competitive bid to send to the USBC. If, and when you do that, and they don't pick....THEN you will have something to complain about.
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The point Jorge is that they refuse to even examine other options. I'll bowl in Reno every year and be okay with it. I don't care personally, but you have to realize that at least a decent amount of the membership does.
Joe, You are missing the point. This is a bid processes. It isn't he USBC's job to go out and find a place....the places put their bids in when they WANT the tournament. Tex mentioned it in his post, the only way we get into places is when convention centers are brand new, and the tournament gets in before other events get booked, or the convention center has undergone a renovation and again we get in before they bring back their yearly commitments. Yes, the tournament brings a lot to a town, once. Most convention centers have shows that come year after year after year. Why would you throw them out, and take the chance that they won't come back for a one-time thing? Your post (and i'm not picking just on you) is the problem that most bowlers have, they get upset about going West, or going to Reno all the time and think the USBC is the issue. THe USBC only can pick from the candidates they are given, and like any business, they are going to pick the best deal. If you or anyone wants the tournament back East you need to work with you local civic center board, chamber of commerce, bowling association, casino if you have any, and put together a competitive bid to send to the USBC. If, and when you do that, and they don't pick....THEN you will have something to complain about.
LOL - going around in circles.
When the standard is set too high to bid, they aren't going to get many bids, are they? They demand things they don't NEED to put on the tournament, then use lack of bids as the reason they have to have it in Reno, where they make a killing.
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Dear jorge300 and Joe Cool:
Neither of you seem to be considering the likelihood that whereas many cities formerly desired the ABC/USBC tournament to come to their area, few(er) cities now consider it a big "plus" to make a bid for -- and hopefully secure -- a tournament.
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You got it, Joe Cool!
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You got it, Joe Cool!
I know. And I am fine with it being in Reno every year, but let's call a spade a spade.
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My point on lane oil (legal vs illegal) is the 3 units minimum rule. I thought that was still a requirement. Anywhere you apply oil, you must have a minimum of 3 units across the lane.
There are still houses that exist that run league shots with zero units outside 7 or so.
You can do a finger test and it will squeak!
Heck I even know of one house where the lane man, cut the buffer so it was impossible for any oil to be applied to the lane outside of 5. Haven't bowled there in 5+ years so maybe it has changed. But when inspection time came, he would install a different buffer the day the inspectors were coming to put out a legal shot.
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Joe,
We are only going in circles because of you. With the new format introduced last year, with fresh oil for doubles and singles, you need a minimum of 48 lanes in order to have the tournament run within the schedule it always has. Those 48 lanes and the machines needed to run them take up space, along with the setee area and seating. You can't get rid of that.
Second, you say the USBC doesn't NEED the booths, but you have never given any reason why. Why doesn't the USBC need those booths? That's rent that comes in to help offset the costs of putting the tournament on, would you be in favor of reducing the prize fund to cover the lost revenue by not having these booths, just to get the tournament into a smaller venue in the East? Or raising the cost of entry fee to do the same?
Lastly, you still haven't addressed why a city would throw out guaranteed yearly income, and events that may have booked years in advance just for housing this one time only event (or one time in 8-10 years other than Reno). Why would any city or convention center do that?
And something I hadn't thought of before, there are a lot on ancillary things that come along with the tournament. You need a local center willing to give up lanes and open play to host the Bowler's Journal tournament, another to host the 40 Frame Game, and potenitally a 3rd to host whatever form the BTM/1-2-3 may be in. Now this could all be one house but then you will lose all open play during the tournament run. Do you know any proprietors who would be willing to do that in your area? Also remember this will have an effect on your league bowlers too. Even stripping the lanes prior to league (which I doubt most houses would do) won't totally get rid of the harder shot. The house will have to deal with a lot of upset bowlers, as we have seen on this board how many just want their high scores no matter what. Well that won't happen bowling over the BJ, or BTM shots (if there is one this year).
So no circles here. Just solid reasoning.
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Seriously? Are you not reading what I've written? It certainly appears you are not.
The only thing that is needed is the tournament. That's it. NONE of the other stuff is necessary. I'm sure in 1900, all the ball companies weren't there peddling their goods in booths. The other tournaments? Not necessary. Maintaining the exact same schedule? Not necessary. It's a f'n bowling tournament.
Is this the national championship or is it a dog and pony show? The answer is they don't need any of the rest of it. They need a decent amount of lanes and nothing more. That is an absolute, undeniable fact. They decided they need booths ($$$). They decided it has to be 48+ ($$$). They decided they need the lockers ($$$). Notice a trend? None of this is for actual bowling reasons. In order to bowl the tournament, they need lanes. All the rest of it is to bring them more money.
It doesn't have to be in a convention center. There don't need to be booths. There doesn't need to be any side tournaments. They don't even need places for "fans". None of that is required to hold a tournament. None of that is required to make it special...this is the national championship. So ask yourself what is all of the fluff really for?
So to reiterate (since you still don't seem to be getting it): The reason nobody bids on the tournament is because they've made the minimum requirements to bid so ridiculously high that nobody bids. Then they use nobody bidding as an excuse to have it in Reno every year where they make a fortune from the casinos and save a fortune by not having to build anything. All the while they claim they are doing this in your best interests because you need all of those other things to have a good time at nationals.
The only minimum requirement should be space for a reasonable amount of lanes (or a center that can be utilized) and enough hotel rooms. If the ball companies want space, they can come up with a creative solution (trailers maybe?). If the other tournaments want to be there, they can find options.
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And again, not only do I have no probelm with Reno, I actually like going to Reno. Plenty of people do hate Reno though, and given the reasons USBC chooses Reno time and time again, I can't say I blame them. It's actually pretty shrewd of USBC. They manipulate the process to get exactly what they wanted. They even got the women to Reno at the same time in an attempt to increase participation so the numbers don't look quite as bad.
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It doesn't help that every year they hold the championships outside of Reno (Baton Rouge for example) attendance drops dramatically. However, I do believe that Reno attendance will also start to drop due to the fatigue of the same city every year.
http://11thframe.com/news/article/5846
The article above is very interesting and states that they are building a new facility at South Point Casino in Vegas in order to rotate with Reno.
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Attendance over the years (# of teams)
1992 Corpus Christi, Texas 8,557 Teams
1993 Tulsa, Oklahoma 8,518
1994 Mobile, Alabama 9,285
1995 Reno, Nevada 17,285
1996 Salt Lake City, Utah 9,764
1997 Huntsville, Alabama 9,480
1998 Reno, Nevada 15,925
1999 Syracuse, New York 9,912
2000 Albuquerque, New Mexico 10,688
2001 Reno, Nevada 16,104
2002 Billings, Montana 10,806
2003 Knoxville, Tennessee 12,203
2004 Reno, Nevada 16,585
2005 Baton Rouge, Louisiana 13,222
2006 Corpus Christi, Texas 12,606
2007 Reno, Nevada 16,235
2008 Albuquerque, New Mexico 12,615
2009 Las Vegas, Nevada 17,200
2010 Reno, Nevada 14,109
2011 Reno, Nevada 12,553
2012 Baton Rouge, Louisiana 11,794
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Don't forget we are going back to Syracuse. Personally I may live in Texas, but can't wait for that one. Oh and for the BBQ, not really any other reason. I know it will be expensive to travel that far, much like it would be for the guys in the east to go west, but if I am there 3 days I know where I will eat every day.
I run tournaments in Texas. One in a small center with basically just lanes, old school. Attendance has continued to decline in recent years and a big complaint is no full snack bar, still allows smoking, too small of areas for bowlers and spectators, etc. The other a larger center with full amenities and that one is not in prime season, but believe it is and will continue to grow and we even run Kegel patterns for it. Like it our not, in this day you do need all those other perks to get people to travel and spend money. The ladies don't have near the turn out that the USBC Open does and until recently just used bowling centers. They are now in convention centers too. Once the new center is complete in Vegas we will go on a rotation of Reno, Vegas and others. Those others do seem to be the same places though that bid over and over. I love Baton Rouge, so could go there more often.
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Good heavens. They held the nationals in Billings Montana? Talk about hard to get to.
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Why does a whole league need to be sanctioned?
Let the individual bowlers decide if they want to be.
If bowlers feel its worth it they will join.
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Why does a whole league need to be sanctioned?
Let the individual bowlers decide if they want to be.
If bowlers feel its worth it they will join.
It may be an issue of fairness. If I am part of a league with rules, it's only fair if all people have the same rules.
Imagine that you are sanctioned, and bowling against a team that decided not to sanction. You are bowling great, but the other team is struggling, so they all grab their sandpaper and start altering their bowling balls and churning up the oil on the lane to their advantage... I doubt any "sanctioned" person would like that, and that's just one example.
I'm not defending USBC, just the idea that any league should be 100% one way or the other.
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+1
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Why does a whole league need to be sanctioned?
Let the individual bowlers decide if they want to be.
If bowlers feel its worth it they will join.
It may be an issue of fairness. If I am part of a league with rules, it's only fair if all people have the same rules.
Imagine that you are sanctioned, and bowling against a team that decided not to sanction. You are bowling great, but the other team is struggling, so they all grab their sandpaper and start altering their bowling balls and churning up the oil on the lane to their advantage... I doubt any "sanctioned" person would like that, and that's just one example.
I'm not defending USBC, just the idea that any league should be 100% one way or the other.
Yeah, but there is nothing going to stop that in a league anyways.
There isn't anyone enforcing rules.
I'd like to say most people are honest, but we are on a downhill slope now. If someone thinks another isn't following the rules they don't want to make a scene about it. They will just use it to justify breaking another rule to make it "fair".
It might be a problem more at a regional/local level, but here in Indiana everyone wants to claim to be USBC certified, but no one wants to take every rule to heart. Centers around here shut off the foul sensors, but then it is up to the bowlers to be the "police". I don't know many that want to tell grandpa on the other team that they are stepping a foot over the line and that their great game is actually a 0 game.
I personally think the USBC is a great idea, but only if everyone and every center follows the rules.
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2013 Reno was about 10,200 teams that the number reported. Since 2007 (16,235 teams) it has drop by 6000 teams.
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I believe that USBC is a very amateruishly run organization. That in many ways follows the entire bowling industry. There are very few if any professionally trained individuals in any capacity. To run an organization of this size, an interested bowler
who has a PHD in Athletic Administration should be the head of this company. As many people who are educated in the field should also be hired, not someone who has only served loyally the organization. There are so many obvious errors that even
I, an amateur bowler, with a BS in the subject can see that are not listened to or even considered. For example: a complaint about schedules are only met at the desk level by "well the USBC gives it to us so it has to be correct.", even though the errors are very obvious. Also, don't even get me started about coaching, it is ridiculuous. That being said, my only excuse is I like to bowl.
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Once upon a time a lot of the people at ABC were just average people they hired to do a job and those at the top were elected by the delegates from local boards, etc. Don't really think that is true today. Have had the pleasure to meet and bowl against a lot of the employees in recent years. I don't believe a college degree makes you an expert, but there are some solid college degrees floating around Arlington these days. The R&D team is loaded for sure and many of the employees not only have their piece of paper, but were on the college bowling teams as well. I was a delegate to the ABC convention when Andrew Cain won the Chuck Hall Star of Tomorrow award and now he is president. With last weeks interim appointment of Chad Murphy to the Executive Director position, we now have a bowler at the top with solid credentials in our industry.
I have had the pleasure of knowing Chad on a bowling level for many years. Bowled against him in the World Team Challenge at Fort Worth, which his team won and went on to win the National Finals event as well. Worked with him when he was with Columbia in San Antonio when he did some sponsorships to my tournaments and provided me support at a minor level and since have crossed paths at the headquarters when I was an athlete delegate a couple years back. He puts someone at the top that is a bowler first and has been a part of manufacturing, BPAA and the USBC for a long time. He is the kind of person we need out there, but he can't do anything without our support.
Always hear a lot of complaints and things like USBC needs to choose a direction, needs to make changes and on and on. Well, they recently have done just that and not too many of us like it much. The choice by what I read is to no longer be an awards program, but to focus on rules and governing of our sport. First change was majority of awards would be local. Next change in the making is locals won't be inspecting lanes so we they can start to gain control of the integrity side of things. Sound familiar? Neither of these changes have been well received, but they are part of USBC choosing a new direction. Just have to hope this doesn't back fire like the "System of Bowling" or a few of the other grand plans of the past. We need every bowler, league and tournament to certify. Every non-sanctioned event I have ever seen has a rule saying they are following USBC (ABC/WIBC) rules, but then complain about those same rules. Makes no sense, either you want to be apart of the solution or a part of the problem. Each bowler has to make these choices. I choose solution and have reached out to Chad and USBC with my support and offered to volunteer where needed.
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Once upon a time a lot of the people at ABC were just average people they hired to do a job and those at the top were elected by the delegates from local boards, etc. Don't really think that is true today. Have had the pleasure to meet and bowl against a lot of the employees in recent years. I don't believe a college degree makes you an expert, but there are some solid college degrees floating around Arlington these days. The R&D team is loaded for sure and many of the employees not only have their piece of paper, but were on the college bowling teams as well. I was a delegate to the ABC convention when Andrew Cain won the Chuck Hall Star of Tomorrow award and now he is president. With last weeks interim appointment of Chad Murphy to the Executive Director position, we now have a bowler at the top with solid credentials in our industry.
I have had the pleasure of knowing Chad on a bowling level for many years. Bowled against him in the World Team Challenge at Fort Worth, which his team won and went on to win the National Finals event as well. Worked with him when he was with Columbia in San Antonio when he did some sponsorships to my tournaments and provided me support at a minor level and since have crossed paths at the headquarters when I was an athlete delegate a couple years back. He puts someone at the top that is a bowler first and has been a part of manufacturing, BPAA and the USBC for a long time. He is the kind of person we need out there, but he can't do anything without our support.
Always hear a lot of complaints and things like USBC needs to choose a direction, needs to make changes and on and on. Well, they recently have done just that and not too many of us like it much. The choice by what I read is to no longer be an awards program, but to focus on rules and governing of our sport. First change was majority of awards would be local. Next change in the making is locals won't be inspecting lanes so we they can start to gain control of the integrity side of things. Sound familiar? Neither of these changes have been well received, but they are part of USBC choosing a new direction. Just have to hope this doesn't back fire like the "System of Bowling" or a few of the other grand plans of the past. We need every bowler, league and tournament to certify. Every non-sanctioned event I have ever seen has a rule saying they are following USBC (ABC/WIBC) rules, but then complain about those same rules. Makes no sense, either you want to be apart of the solution or a part of the problem. Each bowler has to make these choices. I choose solution and have reached out to Chad and USBC with my support and offered to volunteer where needed.
Good post Tex. I agree with your views. My point on the lane inspection is they should have done Texas first and not charged. Then they could have gathered data and shown numbers. We had x number if centers and this percentage failed. We tested Texas and we feel that thi program will/will not work. Let's say we have 59 centers in our state which is probably close. If this system fails then USBC just sucked $10,000 dollars out if our state.
I do feel USBC has some good people, but also think there are some that do not belong. With USBC cutting awards, where is the money going? Pay raises? USBC test facility that 95% of membership has no access to? Is this program going to force local associations to increase sanction cards? Are local per game rates going to increase to offset cost? How many centers are going to opt to not sanction? Will bowlers go elsewhere to get sanction card so they can participate in national tournament or stop going? Just throwing questions out that have been asked to me as I am a pro shop owner an hear a lot of gripes and my wife runs one of the local centers here and she hears and relays to me.
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Joe Cool,
Are you serioulsy this stupid? C'mon, this is an act right? You really can't be this much of a dullard can you? How about answering just one of the questions I asked, instead of spouting off nonsense. But, to humor you, I will respond to a few of your idiotic meanderings....
1) Does the tournament need 48 lanes - well no, you are partially correct, but if you go with less than 48 lanes then the tournament will not be completed by early July, it would be late July or longer depending on how many lanes you do have. People already complain how long it takes for checks to arrive now, think about the complaints if the tournament runs through July 31st, or August 15th, or longer every year. Not a realistic example, the 48 lanes minimum is a neccessity, whether you think so or not.
2) No booths - I asked you how you would like to make up the lost revenue from missing the booths, your response....."the booths aren't a neccisity". Wow, really, that answers that question doesn't it.....not. EPIC FAIL. Again, if we remove the booths and the rent/revenue they generate, how should that be made up, lower prize funds or higher entry fees? Your choice. Will you actually answer this time?
3) Not in a convention center - so you really think a local establishment would throw out all open bowling, and all of it's leagues for 7-8 months of a year? Really?!? You think any center could survive this? How many bowlers would never set foot in that center again? How much revenue would be lost in the years following the tournament? So while it's nice to whine about that it doesn't have to be in a convention center, on planet Earth, in the real world, that isn't a viable option. No center would do this, none. No center would hurt it's local base like this just to hold this tournament. So again, a convention center is the only realistic option. Which again brings up the questions I asked earlier, which you conveniently didn't answer in spewing your garbage response, or in other words EPIC FAIL.
4) No area for "fans" - while I know it doesn't happen as much as it used to, but there are still people who make Nationals a family vacation. They have wives, husbands, children etc there with them that want to watch them bowl. So having an area for "fans" is a necessity, unless you want to further reduce the number of teams/bowlers that come year after year. The average bowler who goes to this tournament, isn't going to win an Eagle, they are going to enjoy time with friends and family. Why would you want to alienate them further? So again, realistically, this is another EPIC FAIL.
Mr C, which I am now certain stands for clueless, does this show you who is reading and who isn't? Your entire rant is nothing but one huge steaming pile of EPIC FAIL. These things may not be necessities to YOU, but either you have no plans to offset the reduced revenue of losing things or your "answers" are so far removed from reality they would only come true in some bizarro universe. And just to add one more thing to this, the Bowler's Journal Championships had a record number of entries last year....but you want to just throw it away as something not needed. Did you read that....a RECORD number of entries. So obviously there are a lot of bowlers who felt it was a necessity. Again, nothing but an EPIC FAIL. If you want to be realistic we can debate this further. Otherwise just don't respond because it isn't fair to the rest of the readers of this topic. Your so-called answers are so far out there i'm suprised one of them wasn't to use anti-gravity devices so we can suspend bowlers and lanes in the air above the lanes on the ground so we get twice as many bowlers particpating at one time, and you can charge extra for those that want the anti-gravity experience. That is as realistic as any of your other solutions offered.
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Joe Cool,
Are you serioulsy this stupid? C'mon, this is an act right? You really can't be this much of a dullard can you? How about answering just one of the questions I asked, instead of spouting off nonsense.
Hey, Internet tough guy. ;D You sound remarkably similar to someone else I know. ;)
Seriously, you bring up some excellent points. Personally, all the side tournaments are a big draw for me. It helps kill the down time around Nationals squads, provides for some added challenging bowling, and it's an opportunity to make some additional money. All the travel is hard for me to justify for just the Nationals themselves.
And fan space is important. In whatever group I'm with, there are always some family and friends who come along. Cut this out, and you will have fewer teams participate.
If you strip the tournament down to what JC is suggesting, you'll have nothing left but the equivalent of a city, county or state tournament. All the extra stuff is what makes Nationals special. Take that away and watch participation drop like a stock market crash.
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Nationals is supposed to be the national tournament. That's it. It's not supposed to be a fund raiser for USBC. It's to determine a national champion. End of story. So factually speaking, I am 100% correct in my assessment of the situation. All the name calling from you doesn't change that. Name calling is the last resort from people that have nothing backing them. Good job.
You don't need to offset revenue because the tournament isn't about revenue. The BJ tournament has nothing to do with the national tournament. None of it has anything to do with deciding the national championship. Everything you said is so wrong, I'm not even going to bother to address it point by point.
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Steven,
I only call it like I see it. I guess that sounds familar too, lol. Just remember, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in and while, so he who should not be named may be right in this one instance. :P
You are far from being alone. Your stance illistrates exactly what I was saying. While technically these things may not be "necessary", realistically they are. And saying you can get rid of them is ludicrous. I am just tired of seeing the same thing year after year, people complaining about the USBC Open location. By now, most people should realize, we all liked it better when it traveled all over the country, I know I did. But that isn't going to happen anymore. The economy won't allow convention centers to throw away money from yearly events just to house the tournament, and risk those events not coming back. So unless a city builds a new center, refurbishes an existing center (and allows an extra year in the contracts with the returning shows), or has an old center that they are going to tear down that can be used for one more event....it will be very hard to house this tournament, regardless of size. The space needed adds an extra wrinkle, but doesn't change the fundementals mentioned above. Based on his posts, I'd guess Joe would do away with the center aisle, as that isn't "needed" for the bowling. Even though walking out through the center aisle to the music playing and the people clapping is an experience most first-times remember the longest from this event.
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By Joe Cool's strict dictionary definition of a National Championship, yes he is correct.
You could hold it in a 16 lane center in some small rural center in the northeast somewhere that allows smoking still.
And I would predict that the less than 1000 teams that showed up for it would all be some of the very best in the country. Yes, you'd win an eagle. I hope that was your goal. Not much money when only 1000 teams entered.
Just like the world series of poker Main Event could be held in any old smokey casino poker room with tables.
But it should be, and is a special experience.
If you have ever gone to a PGA event, you see booths from all the major vendors offering their latest technology.
Bowlers enjoy the same at their national championship. You can talk to the some of the best in the industry. There have been days where Steve Kloempken was at the Storm booth, or Mo Pinel was hanging around the Morich booth. Where else would the average bowler have the chance to have their game analyzed and a ball recommended for them for the tournament conditions by the most knowledgeable staff the ball companies have to offer?
Yes, Joe Cool, the national championship would exist without all of that, but not one many bowlers would want to participate in.
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Nationals is supposed to be the national tournament. That's it. It's not supposed to be a fund raiser for USBC. It's to determine a national champion. End of story. So factually speaking, I am 100% correct in my assessment of the situation. All the name calling from you doesn't change that. Name calling is the last resort from people that have nothing backing them. Good job.
You don't need to offset revenue because the tournament isn't about revenue. The BJ tournament has nothing to do with the national tournament. None of it has anything to do with deciding the national championship. Everything you said is so wrong, I'm not even going to bother to address it point by point.
You can't address it point by point, so whatever excuse you feel is necessary to use so you won't look the fool, go right ahead. But let me tell you, it's already too late. Everything I said is 100% accurate and correct, and you know it. Again, in your bizarro universe, you can have an USBC that doesn't need money from the tournament to survive. You can also have your anti-gravity devices, dogs and cats living together in perfect harmony, the end to world hunger, and total world peace. But here on Earth, in reality, you know that place you don't like to be apparently, the tournament revenue is important, and the loss of that revenue will need to be made up. Maybe we can just raise your USBC dues to pay for it, no one elses, just yours. Can you afford $100,000/year dues next year so we can do away the booths, the BJ, and anything else YOU find offensive with the tournament? Can we also ship all the bowlers to your home, so they can walk through it to music and fanfare since they won't get that chance at the USBC Open anymore in your bizarro world? While, that is the way we have alwasys done things is no reason to halt change, some traditions are ment to keep going on. The USBC Open has always been about finding the National Champion, but it has also been about the experience for the average bowler that doesn't have a realistic chance at that Championship. It is open to all USBC members for a reason, so they can experience the thrill of walking down that center aisle, so they can experience a true old-school tournament setting, so they can experience the latest and greatest from their sport in terms of equipment and apparel at the booths, and so they can experience some good times with friends and family. I still bowl with friends from my hometown in PA that I grew up in, even though I haven't lived there in 15 years. I have added a friend from Texas where I lived, and another from Calgary where I was last. This is usually the only chance I get to see these people. This is what this tournament is about for 90% of the participants. Now, I will admit, the people I picked are also damn good bowlers, and if all 5 of us woiuld ever be on at the same time, we have a definate shot at shooting scores to put us in the top 10 if not contend for an Eagle. But that is just icing on the cake if that happens. Why would anyone travel any distance to attend a tournament that was the same as their city or State tournament? Let me answer that for you, since you have shown you can't answer any question directed at you. They won't. So while you can make your changes, and you MAY succeed in getting the tournament back East more often, you'll wind ud with fewer entries than if you kept the tournament in Reno every year. So Congrats, you've just killed the USBC Open....is there where we are supposed to applaud?!?
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just a quick thought here. i was at the associatio meeting on sunday. i am a board member so i do have a bit of the information, not all of it mind you. what we talked about was the fact that our state was chosen as one of the states where the lanes will be inspected. but we also noticed that most of the states that are on the list are states that have many smaller centers. to a smaller center, ours is 12 lanes, the money of having the lanes certified is a waste for us. at first the usbc wanted us to buy a piece of equipment (years ago) to test and certify the lanes then send in the info. now they changed that.
we looked into how the usbc is handling our kids program scholarship money. for three straight years, and don't quote me on the years, but i think it was 08/09 through 10/11, we recieved no interest/very little, from usbc handling of our money. usbc holds that money for 4 years after a kid says he/she is not going to use that money before giving it back to the program. we get nothing while they hold it.
in the end the discussion was based on one point, what do we get for our membership? the ability to bowl in the national tourney? Some will say that we get the sanctioning, that will keep our center fair, but ours is "legal" already. if i bowl 300 i get one ring, i bowl it again, i buy it myself. and the magnets, you can keep those. i understand there is some talk of going to state sanctioning? good or bad, i don't know
i do believe that there needs to be some sort of governance, however i would like to see more benefits from that. again these are my thoughts, my views, they are not necessarily that of my center, or my association. it is interesting to see where this whole thing goes
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Did I miss the substantial increase in the cost to sanction? You guys act like it cost $300 a year.
Just so you have a perspective my wife plays tennis. USTA membership is $44 a year, plus you have USTA a fee for every league you are in. And the only "awards" there are the regional tournament if your team qualifies.
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Nationals is supposed to be the national tournament. That's it. It's not supposed to be a fund raiser for USBC. It's to determine a national champion. End of story. So factually speaking, I am 100% correct in my assessment of the situation. All the name calling from you doesn't change that. Name calling is the last resort from people that have nothing backing them. Good job.
You don't need to offset revenue because the tournament isn't about revenue. The BJ tournament has nothing to do with the national tournament. None of it has anything to do with deciding the national championship. Everything you said is so wrong, I'm not even going to bother to address it point by point.
You can't address it point by point, so whatever excuse you feel is necessary to use so you won't look the fool, go right ahead. But let me tell you, it's already too late. Everything I said is 100% accurate and correct, and you know it. Blah, blah, blah...
Greed is killing the USBC Open, not me. It's in Reno every year because USBC is using it for funding instead of having it be what it is. I can pick everything you said apart, but I don't have to because as others have noted (as you have), I'm right. It's a national championship. That's what it was 100 years ago before you had all the money making ventures that have been tied to it, and that's what it is today in spite of all of the money making ventures attached to it. All of the pomp and circumstance doesn't change that. All of the page long posts from you don't change that.
You talk about calling it like it is, but you're not. I am. It's a financial endeavor that USBC now views as a money maker. Crowning a national champion is just a side note. They turned it into a circus and people like you bought into it. Congrats.
Let me ask you a question: when's the last time anything was added to the tournament that didn't bring more money to USBC? Think about that for a while and tell me again how I am wrong...
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And I'm not quite sure how many times I have to tell you this Jorge, but I like going to Reno. I'd go to Reno and Vegas every year and be thrilled. This isn't about me as much as you want to make it about me.
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Greed is killing the USBC Open, not me. It's in Reno every year because USBC is using it for funding instead of having it be what it is. I can pick everything you said apart, but I don't have to because as others have noted (as you have), I'm right. It's a national championship. That's what it was 100 years ago before you had all the money making ventures that have been tied to it, and that's what it is today in spite of all of the money making ventures attached to it. All of the pomp and circumstance doesn't change that. All of the page long posts from you don't change that.
Joe, you've clearly stated what you want the USBC Open to be. You're not accepting the reality that your vision would kill the tournament.
Ignoring that NO owner of a large center is going to give it up to the USBC for several months, a lot of people will stay home if you eliminate the viewing, the side action, and the booths. You might personally still come, but thousands of others won't.
The tournament is a National Championship experience for a select few, and a good time for most others. It's not 1900 anymore.
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So, Steven, what you're saying is that most of the participants just go there to have a good time. It's an event, and people go there for all the pomp and just a few select bowlers are there to win? Is it just becoming another event where just those with the money can go? I see both sides, but, and it's just my opinion, but I don't go to a bowling tournament, any tournament, to have a good time. I'm there to try to compete and hopefully win. If I just want to have a good time, there's a million things to do in Reno and Vegas for that. Not dissing on anyone, just my opinion.
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So, Steven, what you're saying is that most of the participants just go there to have a good time. It's an event, and people go there for all the pomp and just a few select bowlers are there to win? Is it just becoming another event where just those with the money can go?
Yep, you pretty much nailed it. I'm glad you're personally there to win, but most do not go with that illusion. They love the feeling of walking into the stadium, seeing their name and city prominently listed above the lanes, and the sheer scope of the experience. It's a big part of what I think is cool about the tournament, and I know it motivates most of the people I go with.
Take away these special elements of what separates the Open from a City tournament, and participation will drop like a rock.
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Greed is killing the USBC Open, not me. It's in Reno every year because USBC is using it for funding instead of having it be what it is. I can pick everything you said apart, but I don't have to because as others have noted (as you have), I'm right. It's a national championship. That's what it was 100 years ago before you had all the money making ventures that have been tied to it, and that's what it is today in spite of all of the money making ventures attached to it. All of the pomp and circumstance doesn't change that. All of the page long posts from you don't change that.
Joe, you've clearly stated what you want the USBC Open to be. You're not accepting the reality that your vision would kill the tournament.
Ignoring that NO owner of a large center is going to give it up to the USBC for several months, a lot of people will stay home if you eliminate the viewing, the side action, and the booths. You might personally still come, but thousands of others won't.
The tournament is a National Championship experience for a select few, and a good time for most others. It's not 1900 anymore.
I don't think you're understanding at all. It's not what I want it to be, it's what it is; or at least what it should be. It is the national championship.
So when USBC is saying they need certain things to hold the tournament, that's not true. They need certain things to profit off the tournament. They could easily hold the tournament somewhere else, but it would require they treat the tournament as a tournament and not as a profit machine. They would have to give up the money they get from the casinos. They might have to compromise on the booths. The side tournaments might not be on site. None of these would prevent the tournament from taking place, but they might cost the USBC some money.
The tournament should be about the tournament first. The tournament should not turn a profit. Ever. All money should go back to the tournament. Every decision made should be about the tournament first. That's not how it works though. It's a profit center for USBC, and that should not be the case because they are making decisions with that in mind and not what's best for the tournament or the people participating in the tournament.
I'm not sure why I have to keep repeating this, but I'm good with Reno. It could be Reno every year and I'd be happy. I'm never winning an Eagle. This is not about me. Some of the same people that hold the game in such high regard are at the same time completely fine with the governing body selling out the tournament for a few bucks. It's amazing.
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Joe Cool,
Despite the fact that the USBC has been "generating money" from the tournament for decades...where would you prefer the USBC get the money that they need?
Every major tournament that is run makes a profit for the person/group running the the tournament. They would not put in all the time and energy needed out of the kindness of their heart. These profits are hiding within the "expense fee" taken out of every entry on most every tournament you enter.
Yes the USBC takes a bigger chunk than most other tournaments but they all do it.
Would you prefer it be labeled differently on the entry form?
As others have posted, in other sports, there are fees tacked on to your entry that are basically profits for the organization running the events.
When you buy concert tickets, "ticketmaster" adds their fee on top of what the artist/group is getting.
What is your goal here? You say greed is killing the open. Explain how. Reno charges the USBC lineage for the lanes. We don't get to bowl there for free. Yes the cost is less than a full build in a convention center, but there is still cost. There are still employees to pay, etc...
Where do you expect USBC to get the money to pay its expenses?
Where do you expect any organization to get money to pay for the expenses necessary to run that organization?
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Joe Cool,
Despite the fact that the USBC has been "generating money" from the tournament for decades...where would you prefer the USBC get the money that they need?
Every major tournament that is run makes a profit for the person/group running the the tournament. They would not put in all the time and energy needed out of the kindness of their heart. These profits are hiding within the "expense fee" taken out of every entry on most every tournament you enter.
Yes the USBC takes a bigger chunk than most other tournaments but they all do it.
Would you prefer it be labeled differently on the entry form?
As others have posted, in other sports, there are fees tacked on to your entry that are basically profits for the organization running the events.
When you buy concert tickets, "ticketmaster" adds their fee on top of what the artist/group is getting.
What is your goal here? You say greed is killing the open. Explain how. Reno charges the USBC lineage for the lanes. We don't get to bowl there for free. Yes the cost is less than a full build in a convention center, but there is still cost. There are still employees to pay, etc...
Where do you expect USBC to get the money to pay its expenses?
Where do you expect any organization to get money to pay for the expenses necessary to run that organization?
Well, now you're getting to the bigger problem. USBC is (and has been) leaking money like crazy and has never made an attempt to fix it. They throw band aids at problems and hope they will fix everything. If the organization can't survive without profiting off of the tournament, don't you think that indicates a serious problem? Wasn't the merger supposed to be a long term solution to financial problems they were having? How many years ago was that?
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Here is ABC/WIBC/USBC fixing their financial issues:
2005 - we'll merge with WIBC and save some money. That will fix everything.
2008 - we'll move from WI to TX and save some money. That will fix everything.
2013 - we'll take awards away and save some money. That will fix everything.
What's next?
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For me, the tournament should be about the bowling and the competition but I do understand Steven's point of view. But I'm with Joe in regards to the USBC. At a recent meeting my rep and the others there asked about what kind of salaries the execs were making and about if there was an expense report for the sanction dues that were paid. They were told that it was "privileged information" and had no more comments concerning finances. Take from it what you want, but that pretty much says it all for me. You want us to pay higher sanction fees, ignore any possible resolutions or suggestions, eliminate the awards program and when we ask what are you doing with the money you say... none of your business that's "privileged information".
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I'm not advocating completely stripping down the tournament. I get why they do some of the things they do and I get that people take advantage of things like the booths and so forth. I do all of that stuff when I go too. It's all part of the experience.
I just wanted to get people thinking about it a little more than they were. I wanted them to understand the why. They demand those things not because they are necessary; they demand them because they don't want other cities bidding on the tournament. They need the money from places like Vegas and Reno, and they need to save the money they don't spend by having the tournament in other locations. They throw us the occasional bone like El Paso and Baton Rouge (both relatively close to HQ btw), but they would be happy if they never had to travel the tournament again.
This has nothing to do with making the tournament experience better for us. People need to understand that.
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Tex-
I agree that a college degree does not make you an expert in any field. However, a
PHD does qualify you as an expert. Outside of the area of research and development
there have been few, if any, qualified experts in bowling fields. Don't give me names,
the USBC should be run on the same level as a college athletic department. Most of
those people are classicly trained.